Dear Ulla;

Congratulations, a very thoughtful participation in the search for the foundational first cause. We ALL are searching in a reality that is hiding for us the most fundamental essence, I think. Here on FQXi there are about 200 thoughts about this quest for humanity, and believe me NO ONE has the ultimate answer. But that is no wonder because the human intelligence is just existing for a second, there is hope for the far future when will be further evolved....

Now about your thoughts:

"In search for Life what is needed more than a definition of Life is a definition of Death". Indeed where does our consciousness go, does it "go", is there an immortal soul ? The same questions are relevant when we ask "What before our birth" ? Was our consciousness then wandering around ?. I try to find answers in my essay.

"Stability is a problem, and this gives the haemostasis principle?" You are mentioning the stability in crystals. The article about Sharon Glotzer (searching for the fundamental principles that govern how macroscopic properties emerge from microscopic interactions) where her research on the paradoxical role that entropy plays in the emergence of complexity and order may interest you. Here is the

link.

"A property cannot be diminished to fundamental bits.". This is really something to think about. Properties are emerging qualities that our awareness is attributing to "objects" and/or agents. It is comparable to "character" I think, so indeed difficult to atomise them. This is also the reason that self-assembly at nano-scale can dictate emergence of new functional properties at intermediate mesoscopic scale, because the new properties

"If entropy is a measure of disorder, the Second Law of Thermodynamics says that to maintain ordered structure, it must get rid of the disorder that Life gives." Maybe it is also the other way around you could read the study of Canadian scientists where they propose that Human Consciousness could be a side effect of Entropy on this link to arxiv.

"If anything, Life speed up the entropy in universe".I just don't think you a drawing the right conclusion here, maybe you are right but my view is that consciousness is the counterforce of entropy.

"What kind of doping have microtubuli?" Inside our brain it is inside the microtubuli that the connection with quantum mechanics is created, it is possible the harbour of consciousness. (contact with Total Consciousness).

There are more interesting points in your essay Ulla, but then my post would become too long, an essay on its own. I have read attentively your work and hope that you will also take some time to read my essay Foundational Quantum Reality Loops that among other things offers an alternative for the MWI.

Best regards

Wilhelmus de Wilde

    Thanks, Wilhelmus.

    For one thing, we don't know what consciousness is, other than it is 'subjective' as we experience it, still that experience is made up of billions of parts... and how is that related to information. What we have is a lots of misinformation, pure beliefs and assupmtions. We like our beliefs, don't want to get rid of them...

    Also, when we talk of 'intelligence' there are many kinds, like social, emotional... We often attribute it to only binary logic, which I Think is wrong. I want more than two optional answers...

    As instance math genuises are often seen as true genuises, because they use a language incomprehensible to most. I call it the Merlin language. Still genuises don't use math, but its symbols, Pictures, behaviours, processes... Hardly any math problem is simply deduced, and if so it is often plain wrong.

    Why do we need those lies?

    Stability is a problem, because Life is instability, reactivity. So what defines stability, we just call it homeostasis, allostasis etc. It is a stressreaction as so much else in our World. Stress is disruption and so on...

    A property is a property, and it must be exactly as it is to save its charachter. This is the 'More than everything' bit. Emergence is also a fundamental process, maybe, like Phil Gibbs said it. These thoughts and the thoughts about negentropy and non-dissipative states are not crisp and clear yet, need some more work, but I am pretty sure Life speed up entropy in total. Just look at our Mother Earth and her condition.

    Thanks for your nice Words.

    Ulla.

    I must add that these aspects of 'What is Life' would never have been this clear without the many hours talking to Joseph, analyzing his simulations. Very illuminating, and I have come to understand that the 'quantum' aspects are not more mystical than our ordinary World is. It is only about pixels, resolutions... working a bit differently. Many thanks to Joseph, once again.

    Indeed Ulla, there are so many things we don't understand, even the members here are using the words "stuff", "things", etc... Scientists are so stuck to their implementations of insecure things that they won't accept fresh idea's...

    Between black and white there are infinity shades of grey... That is why I hope that quantum computers will become nearer to what we call consciousness (next stage of evolution ?

    Humanity is full of stress to get their stomachs filled...

    As a matter of fact Phil is saying the same as I do, only he is more intelliget then I am because I cannot understand the Merlin language...I like mother earth but it has an illness : humanity....

    best regards

    Wilhelmus

    In a BEC are solitons that create friction. Now finnish researchers suspect they are quasistates, more findamental states...

    "What we suspect could be a source of the friction are quasi-particles trapped in the cores of the vortices. When the vortices accelerate, the particles gain kinetic energy which dissipates to surrounding particles and creates friction," explains Mäkinen.

    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-02-friction-nonein-superfluids-absolute.html#jCp

    Dear Ulla.

    In general, I really appreciated your thoughtful conceptional way of explanation about the fundamental of life. I Have some similar idea about this topic, but the complexity of different level of systems and our limited knowledge has been puzzling issue of the Nature's fundamental.

    Perhaps, after reading carefully I will give comments.

    Best wishes.

    Bashir.

      It is exactly the complexity that is so wonderful, and can be explained like this, as also Schrödinger thought. But we shall not diminish the complexity to chromosomes alone, they are just a part of the whole, maybe not even the biggest part. The quasi-states as a dual frame solve it. Our World is both classical and quantum too.

      Ulla Mattfolk.

      Ulla,

      Fascinating stuff which was more so due to my interest in the subject. I certainly connected with most, indeed my essay last year more than touched on it; stacking structures etc. (I'm not sure you read it but I included a possible quantum interaction process for RNA mutation).

      I also discussed cognitive dissonance and loved your; "When we get some meaningful construct out of that information it is very difficult to reverse it. Unlearning is hard."

      and loved the Schrodinger quote; "The obvious inability of present-day physics and chemistry to account for such events is no reason at all for doubting that they can be accounted for by those sciences."

      Sorry I couldn't find anything to question, but learned a lot, and liked the terminology intro, very useful.

      Great stuff, and pretty fundamental. Pencilled in at 8. My own this year completes the underlying quantum interaction mechanism classically, seminally shocking to many - who'd have to 'unlearn' quite a lot!! I hope you'll read and like it.

      Very Best

      Peter

        Thanks Peter.

        No, I did not read your essay last year, must do it now.

        It was an awful lots of job behind this, sometimes I am a bit ?

        I would have wanted to explore more on the term 'complexity as fundamental principle' giving emergent properties...maybe even behind gauge symmetries - it must be Another time.

        Deformed symmetries are interesting. They form new 'stable' ones, protected, until again broken in an endless chain.

        I have also made a study of quantum interactions and measurements, but I became unsure what to Think about it, such a mess. I will read it, yes. Thanks

        Ulla Mattfolk.

        Dear Ulla Marianne Mattfolk

        Wonderful discussion on Life.... Life is indeed made of atoms, but are atoms the fundamental process of life? No, of course not...... What differ "living" atoms from ordinary ones? The answer is not in the matter itself, but what is the "tensions", "drive" or "life force". What may be the drive? We can see it as a process of limited "energy", expressed as number mitoses, quality of Life. We can see it as "negentropy" with entropy as opposite pole. Synergy maybe? We can see it as "work for free", differentiation through error correction, which we call "adaptation" of a stressed system................. Keep it up sir, continue your thinking.... by the way...

        Here in my essay energy to mass conversion is proposed................ yours is very nice essay best wishes .... I highly appreciate hope your essay and hope for reciprocity ....You may please spend some of the valuable time on Dynamic Universe Model also and give your some of the valuable & esteemed guidance

        Some of the Main foundational points of Dynamic Universe Model :

        -No Isotropy

        -No Homogeneity

        -No Space-time continuum

        -Non-uniform density of matter, universe is lumpy

        -No singularities

        -No collisions between bodies

        -No blackholes

        -No warm holes

        -No Bigbang

        -No repulsion between distant Galaxies

        -Non-empty Universe

        -No imaginary or negative time axis

        -No imaginary X, Y, Z axes

        -No differential and Integral Equations mathematically

        -No General Relativity and Model does not reduce to GR on any condition

        -No Creation of matter like Bigbang or steady-state models

        -No many mini Bigbangs

        -No Missing Mass / Dark matter

        -No Dark energy

        -No Bigbang generated CMB detected

        -No Multi-verses

        Here:

        -Accelerating Expanding universe with 33% Blue shifted Galaxies

        -Newton's Gravitation law works everywhere in the same way

        -All bodies dynamically moving

        -All bodies move in dynamic Equilibrium

        -Closed universe model no light or bodies will go away from universe

        -Single Universe no baby universes

        -Time is linear as observed on earth, moving forward only

        -Independent x,y,z coordinate axes and Time axis no interdependencies between axes..

        -UGF (Universal Gravitational Force) calculated on every point-mass

        -Tensors (Linear) used for giving UNIQUE solutions for each time step

        -Uses everyday physics as achievable by engineering

        -21000 linear equations are used in an Excel sheet

        -Computerized calculations uses 16 decimal digit accuracy

        -Data mining and data warehousing techniques are used for data extraction from large amounts of data.

        - Many predictions of Dynamic Universe Model came true....Have a look at

        http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/p/blog-page_15.html

        I request you to please have a look at my essay also, and give some of your esteemed criticism for your information........

        Dynamic Universe Model says that the energy in the form of electromagnetic radiation passing grazingly near any gravitating mass changes its in frequency and finally will convert into neutrinos (mass). We all know that there is no experiment or quest in this direction. Energy conversion happens from mass to energy with the famous E=mC2, the other side of this conversion was not thought off. This is a new fundamental prediction by Dynamic Universe Model, a foundational quest in the area of Astrophysics and Cosmology.

        In accordance with Dynamic Universe Model frequency shift happens on both the sides of spectrum when any electromagnetic radiation passes grazingly near gravitating mass. With this new verification, we will open a new frontier that will unlock a way for formation of the basis for continual Nucleosynthesis (continuous formation of elements) in our Universe. Amount of frequency shift will depend on relative velocity difference. All the papers of author can be downloaded from "http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.in/ "

        I request you to please post your reply in my essay also, so that I can get an intimation that you replied

        Best

        =snp

          Ulla, What were the simulations by Joseph (Kover?)? I like doing computer simulations myself and am always interested to hear what other people have tried.

          Ulla, Hi, its good to see you here.

          I think when Schrodinger wrote his book about life, many physicists thought he had gone mad, but now his ideas about information in biology are a hot topic. Very few people have the originality of thought to be able to jump so far ahead of the crowd. These ideas can only get more important as technology begins to impact on them.

          Thanks for a wondereful essay.

            Peter, I Think your vote did not arrive :)

            I try to find time to read your essay now. I do a work where stackings are important.

            Thanks Phil.

            I have some years ago looked at Schrödingers view on negentropy and it did not make sense. Negentropy in biology is something much more fantastic than just seen as opposite to entropy. I will certainly come back to this later.

            But now his aperiodic Crystals seems very up to date, but we shall not limit them to chromosomes. There are so much in biology that is asymmetric and chiral so it must be some bigger thought behind. It is like molecules in biology are skewed with new properties, so left and right forms have very different properties. In biology we talk of niches, it looks like a way to avoid competition...very much like information, or maybe raw 'consciousness'.

            Also the low energy limits are interesting. Like the symmetries were emergent, and here I Think biology can be a template for physicists. But this must be much more explored Before I can say much.

            Thanks. Don't forget to vote :) I need them...

            No good situation for me, maybe too much offending heading? I thought it was a good one...

            Ulla.

            I must add Susskinds new paper, he should read my eassy...

            He talks of - a fundamental law of quantum mechanics---the tendency for complexity to grow. - https://arxiv.org/abs/1802.01198v1

            To understand GR we must understand QM, I have said some time now...

            There are a number of correspondences between quantum mechanics and gravity that are suggestive of a much deeper connection than we might have imagined several years ago [1]. ER=EPR is one [2], and the relation between the generic growth of quantum complexity and the expansion of space behind the horizons of black holes is another [3]. There are more that I will publish in a series of short notes. In this rst note I will point out a relation between ordinary gravitational attraction and the general properties of quantum chaos.

            Ye, stay alert on Susskind...

            I must add Susskinds new paper, he should read my eassy...

            He talks of - a fundamental law of quantum mechanics---the tendency for complexity to grow. - https://arxiv.org/abs/1802.01198v1

            To understand GR we must understand QM, I have said some time now...

            There are a number of correspondences between quantum mechanics and gravity that are suggestive of a much deeper connection than we might have imagined several years ago [1]. ER=EPR is one [2], and the relation between the generic growth of quantum complexity and the expansion of space behind the horizons of black holes is another [3]. There are more that I will publish in a series of short notes. In this rst note I will point out a relation between ordinary gravitational attraction and the general properties of quantum chaos.

            Ye, stay alert on Susskind...

            5 days later

            Hello Ulla,

            Happy to see your essay,congratulations for your essay relavant about the life.

            Best Regards

              One add more.

              http://members.cbio.mines-paristech.fr/~jvert/svn/bibli/local/Bhalla1999Emergent.pdf

              it has become increasingly clear that signaling pathways interact with one another and the final biological response is shaped by interaction between pathways....

              In biological systems, signal transmission occurs mostly by two mechanisms:

              (i) protein-protein interactions and enzymatic reactions such as protein phosphorylation and dephosphorylation

              (ii) or protein degradation or production of intracellular messengers.

              Enzymes as 'almost living' substartes interest, also learning and memory functions.... I start thinking of AI... and 'lifting mechanisms'.

              The bifurcation point T is important because it defines threshold stimulation. Also type of feedback, 'learning' and 'memory', properties that emerge in the reactions etc.

              Science 283, 381 (1999);

              Upinder S. Bhalla and Ravi Iyengar

              Emergent Properties of Networks of Biological Signaling Pathways