Essay Abstract

The question "What is fundamental?" elicits widely divergent responses, even among physicists. The majority view is that the mantle of the most fundamental scientific theory is currently held by the Standard Model of particle physics, and will eventually be passed on to its successor, a "Super Model" that will incorporate quantized gravity and explain current mysteries like dark matter and dark energy. But many disagree with this straightforward, reductionist viewpoint. Some invoke the concept of emergence (weak or strong) to argue that science is anchored by many equally fundamental concepts and theories, at every level of description. Some turn the tables around and assign greater fundamentality to higher levels, in many cases, to consciousness itself. Some maintain that the most fundamental level must be an abstract/mathematical structure, and that the physicality of the world we perceive is an emergent phenomenon. In this essay, I will try to make sense of these diverging views while attempting to distinguish between epistemological fundamentality (the fundamentality of our scientific theories) and ontological fundamentality (the fundamentality of the world itself, irrespective of our description of it). There will also be towers of turtles and chains of monkeys.

Author Bio

Marc Séguin holds two master's degrees from Harvard University: one in Astronomy and another in History of Science. He teaches physics and astrophysics at Collège de Maisonneuve, in Montréal, and is the author of several college-level textbooks in physics and astrophysics.

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Dear Marc,

It is a pleasure to meet again here in the contest.

I have read your very informative essay attentively and it is a treasure for historic description of our quest for the foundations of our reality both scientific and philosophical.

My real attention was drawn when I saw your figure 4. You mention Universal Consciousness and ALL=Nothing. You say that 3 is going UP and 4 is going DOWN. You also mention the "fogs of metaphysical hand-waving" representing the abstract structure that contains self-aware sub-structures. It is between conscious identity through time. This perception is almost the same as what I suppose : Begin and end are both ALL=Nothing , nut in this non dimensional "area" resides "Total Consciousness", the "area" itself I call "Total Simultaneity" and you can reach that at every POINT of our Reality. Our reality emerges from this "area". I refer to "causal emergence" in order to explain the steps you are taking from particles to brains.

Indeed the questions are still WIDE OPEN also because human intelligence has such a short history, we are just beginning to understand the what we become aware of, and even that information is highly incomplete.

In my essay: Foundational Quantum Reality Loops I try to construct a new model of the emergence of reality(that also gives an alternative for the MWI), but I think that the end conclusion is the same as yours.

I hope that you can spare some time to read, comment and eventually rate it.

Best regards and good luck

Wilhelmus de Wilde

    Marc,

    I was very glad to see your last-year's essay on the list of prize-winners, and your new one lives up to expectations. Again you give an excellent overview of the issue by combining remarkably various viewpoints into a clear and engaging narrative. I particularly liked the paragraph on "basic chemistry," since I imagine it's generally assumed there's no "strong emergence" here, just quantum physics at work - and yet even if we could describe complex molecules and chemical reactions strictly in terms of physics, why would we want to?

    You're certainly right that we need to distinguish between "epistemological" and "ontological" ways of being fundamental. As the above example illustrates, chemistry may well be ontologically nothing but physics, yet for the sake of explanation and understanding, it's much better to give "laws of chemistry" in their own higher-level language.

    But you're also right that this distinction is not really so clear. If we look at the case of biology, it's not just a question of what level of explanation is most helpful. Ontologically, what's going on in living organisms is not just very complex physics; it's very complex physics in the service of self-replication, which doesn't happen at any lower level. I have no doubt that everything organisms do is done by molecular physics. And though it's not at all clear how life began, I see no reason to think it can't be explained by physics and chemistry. Yet the ability of self-reproducing organisms to evolve is something entirely new... both ontologically and epistemologically.

    This makes me doubt whether there's any point to the debate over "strong emergence." I think the problem is that physicists and their philosophical attendants tend think only in terms of structure, not function. Structurally, every level up to the neural networks of the brain may be "derivable" from lower levels, but radically new kinds of functionality clearly appear at higher levels of structure.

    My current essay tries to show that functional emergence is relevant in physics as well. As you explain so nicely, the quest for a fundamental physics has uncovered a bizarre combination of theoretical structures that are very far from simple or self-evident. I take "fine-tuning" as pointing toward a functional explanation for all this, in terms of what's required for a universe to be able to make any information definable and measurable.

    That connects with your "metaphysical" discussion of "all=nothing", since your "infinite ensemble of all abstractions" seems strangely like the "chaos of all possible happening" I take as a starting-point. And by the way, your one-sentence summary of your last-year's essay took my breath away. You "explained why it is reasonable to consider that a physical world is simply an abstract structure that contains self-aware sub-structures: what makes such a world physical is the contemplation of its mathematical structure by these sub-structures." Wow! This is conceptual imagination of a very high order... not apparently derivable from anything more pedestrian.

    Of all the "overview" essays here, this is definitely the most fun, and gave me most to think about. So thanks!

    Conrad

      Dear Marc,

      I enjoyed reading your essay. I also had to read your previous essay, since you refer to it and also enjoyed it. I have a couple of questions and hope that you can answer them.

      In your current essay you state that the infinite ensemble of all abstractions contains zero information. But this can't be the case, since you necessarily have to discriminate between 'lawfull patch' and 'chaotic space'. In other words: by taking all abstractions as the 'ground of being', you must discriminate between consistent (lawfull) and inconsistent (chaotic) relationships. Your very premise that the reality we live in is a mathematical structure and an observer is a sub-structure, you have differentiated between structures that never can become conscious and structures that can. It follows that the 'infinite ensemble of all abstractions' must contain some information that indicates the difference between conscious and not conscious.

      Even if an infinite ensemble of all abstractions would have zero information, how can you discriminate it from God, I am tempted to ask. In your previous essay, you state that God must be more complex than the universe. This may be the case and I wonder how your 'infinite ensemble of all abstractions' is different from God, since your abstract landscape is atemporal (being) and contains consciousness - and is surely more complex than our universe is.

      I really like your approach to tackle the contest's question, since you bravely go to the very deep questions and to the extremes to come to a reasonable answer. But I have the suspicion that an infinite ensemble of all abstractions, something that can only be thought of by human beings as a whole (albeit an 'infinite' whole), if looked at more closer, cannot be thought of in any meaningfull manner - since an infinite thing is never complete as a whole. Therefore, the reason why it seemingly 'contains' zero information is that it is simply not formalizable.

      Now, in my own essay, I purport the idea that ultimate reality isn't completely formalizable. Instead of building a fundamental ontology by the help of a 0 and a 1 (as you and Greg Egan may wish), I trace back logics and mathematics to the identity of 0 and 1. the big difference to your approach is, that I claim a realm beyond time and space that is not mathematical or abstract, but concrete and real, but nonetheless not formalizable. One can call this realm God if one wishes, since its essential features are consciousness and eternal truth. God in this sense contains very less information, but he is surely the creator of all information (and of abstractions).

      I would be happy if you could read my approach and comment on it.

      Best wishes,

      Stefan Weckbach

        Dear Marc Séguin,

        FQXi.org is clearly seeking to confirm whether Nature is fundamental.

        Reliable evidence exists that proves that the surface of the earth was formed millions of years before man and his utterly complex finite informational systems ever appeared on that surface. It logically follows that Nature must have permanently devised the only single physical construct of earth allowable.

        All objects, be they solid, liquid, or vaporous have always had a visible surface. This is because the real Universe must consist only of one single unified VISIBLE infinite surface occurring eternally in one single infinite dimension that am always illuminated mostly by finite non-surface light.

        Only the truth can set you free.

        Joe Fisher, Realist

        Dear Marc,

        You write well -- I liked your essay and underlined a lot of it: chemistry is not molecular physics, independent fundamentalities for many disciplines, our world is an abstract structure like mathematics, and that consciousness wins out over space/time/matter in a poll. I also took another look at your two previous essays (2497 and 2912). I now think of the abstract mathematics as a superposition of various hypercomplex algebras (like Wilczek's GRID with different levels of complexity for different types of fields) working and duplicated at each tiny interval of space time throughout the universe. But rather than "pure" math, it might be a strong isomorphism to a sub-reality (which might still be called "physics" more than math - how's that for "abstract").

        Best Wishes,

        David

          Marc,

          I like very much your essay. In my essay, I give a different treatment of the metaphysical aspect, in which the universe comes pretty much like as a "dynamic emptiness" substance, motivated (cause) by simple logic. The spontaneous nature of the universe is its most under-rated property.

          Salutations et bonne chance,

          Marcel,

            Hi Marc,

            I was reading the first part of your concluding section on metaphysics and thought to myself, 'that sounds like Zen emptiness.' So I felt vindicated when I got to the end, and the interpretation 'dynamic emptiness' appeared, which has abundance of meaning for me, as I expressed in my essay entry.

            And I particularly like your 'turtles' figure--every step seemingly becoming more fragile, further removed from the source turtle. This would miss the point, though, that the structure is not hierarchical; feedback mechanisms give every turtle access to the source.

            Tres jolie, monsieur. A first class essay.

            Tom

              Sorry, secure link. https://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/3124. Also, I meant figure 1 for the turtles.

              Hi Marc,

              well written essay. Other figures are thinkable than your figures 3 and 4. In my essay I try to defend a positivist view on physics, as good as this is possible, where the fundamental concepts depend on their observability. However the means of observation must be describable by these fundamental concepts. So the figure we get here is a circle.

              Best regards,

              Luca

                Dear Marc,

                thank you very much for your essay, it's a very interesting text and a concise summary of the subject, it should be read before all the others as introduction as well. It's for sure one of the best essays I've read so far.

                You write that

                > Something is truly fundamental if it could not have been otherwise.

                and, since everything could be otherwise (also this statement!), you argue that we should consider 'nothing' as candidate for being fundamental. I reach similar conclusions through my analysis of Nagarjuna's philosophy and absolute relativism, and I try to handle its paradoxical consequences.

                I find also very interesting when you write

                > the infinite ensemble of all abstractions is a unique construct that contains, overall, zero information .

                But I have to read your essay "Wandering Towards a Goal: How Can Mindless Mathematical Laws Give Rise to Aims and Intention?" to fully understand what you state.

                All the best!

                Francesco D'Isa

                  Dear Marc,

                  there is a central notion resp. concept in your essay that, formally speaking, seems to undermine the turtle pile as well as the ape chain. The notion 'abstract', I believe, doesn't support what you intend to express. For instance, you say: "Being abstract, it can exist by itself, ...". Also the notion 'purely abstract structure' doesn't make much sense when these structures are placed between 'all=nothing' and the 'fog of metaphysical handwaving'. Here is my argument:

                  'Abstract' derives from Latin abstrahere, which means to withdraw or to isolate from. So we can, for instance, abstract weight, shape, atoms, (infrared)waves, etc. from a cow just because they are already there (thanks to our forebears), i.e. abstraction is a posteriori! Then "Being abstract, it can exist by itself..." is a contradiction in terms, because 'it' has been withdrawn from something else by something else and it follows that the abstract cannot exist by itself. So, I think that your turtle and ape chains fail on meaning.

                  Heinrich

                    Dear Marc Séguin, after reading your essay, I thought that you should definitely get acquainted with New Cartesian Physics. Look at my essay, FQXi Fundamental in New Cartesian Physics by Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich Where I showed how radically the physics can change if it follows the principle of identity of space and matter of Descartes. Evaluate and leave your comment there. I highly value your essay; however, I'll give you a rating as the bearer of Descartes' idea. Do not allow New Cartesian Physics go away into nothingness, which wants to be the theory of everything OO.

                    Sincerely, Dizhechko Boris Semyonovich.

                    Hi Marc Séguin, hope you are well and find the time to reply. I've made some annotations in a comment above and would be happy if you would be able to reply. Best wishes, Stefan Weckbach.

                      Dear Wilhelmus,

                      I am glad you liked my essay! I've put yours on my reading list.

                      Marc

                      Dear Conrad,

                      Nice to talk to you again in this contest! Your very positive analysis of my essay certainly constitutes a good summary of how I see the issue of fundamentality. We do share the same hope that we can ultimately explain the Universe out of "chaos" or "nothingness", through a feedback loop of functional emergence. I read your essay when it came out, and I will be commenting on it in your thread as soon as I find the time to put my ideas together.

                      Marc

                      There seems to be something strange going on with my posts: my paragraphs breaks are replaced by "n"... ?!?

                      Dear Stefan,

                      Thank you for taking the time to read my essay! I will try to answer your questions. First, in my opinion, the infinite ensemble of all abstractions contains every possible abstraction, be it very regular ("lawfull patch") or irregular and chaotic. The minute you start to discriminate and include only some abstractions in the ensemble, it ceases to have a simple, almost-zero information description (simply, "the ensemble of all abstractions"), and needs to be specified (at least) by what it excludes, which defeats the purpose of having something unique and non-arbitrary serving as the "ground of being" of all Universes, chaotic or not. Of course, the big question now is "Why is the world that we observe so 'lawful'?", what I called the "Hard Problem of Lawfulness" in my previous essay...

                      Moreover, since the infinite ensemble of all abstractions contains, overall, no information, it is not an arbitrary "God" more complex than what we are trying to explain.

                      Since I believe that an infinite ensemble can serve as the "ground of being", I do not subcribe to the idea that an "infinite thing" can never be complete as a whole, and thus cannot be formalized or thought of. Of course, the problem of inifinity is a thorny one (Max Tegmark is trying, for instance, to see how his mathematical universe hypothesis can work within a finite context): I tried to address the issue of infinity in my previous essays. Despite all the problems associated with infinity, I still find it more likely that the whole of reality is infinite instead of finite. For instance, if reality is finite and discrete, it is made of a certain number of particles, that number being either odd or even. But if it is one or the other, why? It just seems too arbitrary in the context of the WHOLE of reality...

                      I find your idea of "realm beyond time and space that is concrete yet not formalizable" intriguing. I will certainly take a look at your essay!

                      Marc

                      Hi Stefan,

                      I just commented on your previous comment and tried to answer the questions you raised. I will certainly take a look at your essay!

                      Marc

                      Dear Marc, thank you very much for your reply. I just want to annotate that within such an infinite set of abstractions, there must be some information according to which abstractions can get conscious and which not. Otherwise all abstractions are somewhat conscious of themselves in the sense that "oh, I am an abstraction". If I am indeed an abstraction, this information must be somewhere in the infinite realms of abstractions. This information can only be zero when the claim that I am an abstraction is empty, means consciousness is something other as we assume it to be - or every abstraction is conscious. If consciousness would be of that kind, means an abstraction thinking that itself is an abstraction, the very term 'abstraction' gets void as long as there are other abstractions that aren't able to become conscious. Either all abstractions are 'conscious' or none of them are 'conscious'. If parts of them are 'conscious', then there must be some information about which parts, and how and why they are destined to be able to be conscious of themselves.... and realize that they are 'abstractions'. Isn't the whole term 'abstraction' itself an abstraction for something we just don't understand, namely the fundamental underlying ontology of reality? If yes, this term does self-confirm itself to reliably catch some ontological truth, albeit it merely self-confirms it character as a container for something we do not yet understand. These are just a few toughts... in my own approach I try to exemplify these thoughts with a certain deduction scheme. I would be glad if you would be able to comment on my own approach - best wishes from germany, Stefan. P.S. Sorry for the missing blank lines - i left them out, because the fqxi formatting system has a bug (hope that AI will work more reliable some day :-)