Marc,

Yours was easily the most enjoyable essay I've read in this contest!

It is lucid, learned, well-stated, well-ordered, and covers the topic in an interesting and engaging way. It as also spot-on for the question that FQXi asked, and your sly and often self-deprecating sense of humor had me chuckling multiple times.

In short, your essay was entertaining, illuminating, and fun.

Perhaps more importantly, however, was its impact: You actually persuaded a rather hard-nosed scientific type like me to take your arguments and points to heart, though I'll also admit that the "hard-nosed" part is a bit of a fraud. These issues have always fascinated me, even when I was very young. Alas, in exploring such issues later in life, what I discovered was that as a general rule, the greater the size and of the words and the frequency with which they were used, the less was the actual knowledge that someone was attempting to convey to me. For that reason it was a mercy that you held off using "epistemology" and "ontology" until page 7. It was your determined use of well-chosen ordinary words and analogies in the pages before that persuaded me to read and enjoy the essay as a whole.

I'll mention just two points: qualia, and your definition of what is fundamental.

Qualia are a topic I pondered for decades before encountering the word for it. You state on page 7 that "qualia...are truly...independently fundamental." As someone who worked for years in topics involving both human and machine cognition, allow me to state a position that I did not come to trivially: Computers, even computers that exactly mimic human behaviors and emotions, have no qualia. That is because they need for qualia, and in fact have no any room in their fully deterministic designs by which qualia might somehow "slip in" and affect the behavior of such devices.

To help explain that, here is an assertion about qualia that you likely have never heard before, and that many might consider to be heretical: Qualia do not just define our very existence, they are incredibly useful. Qualia, including emotions, somehow help our limited suite of human neurons to connect and sort through information faster. When you look at an apple tree with green-red color blindness, you see only leaves. When you look at the same tree with full color vision, you see bright red edible fruit and exactly where it is located. It is the qualia that within the mind convert ordinary data from the eye into a single coherent map, an interplay of red and green that helps your body get to the food faster and more safely.

We do not know what qualia are. The simple truth is, we simply do not want to know what qualia are. Humans want reliability, so human designers make their machines as deterministic as possible to help shield against such ill-defined forms of information processing. In fear, we purge the scourge of qualia before we even get a glimpse of what they look like. In their place we use blinding digital speed, a safe way to emulate but not access the incredible speed, smoothness, efficiency, and diversity (emotions, colors, space, sounds, tastes, senses) of qualia.

Is it offensive to say that the same quantities that define our very existence, that create meaning and enable empathy, and that categorically distinguish us from literally mindless, full deterministic computers, are also useful?

Perhaps it would be if qualia are nothing more than local chemical reactions with no more profundity than the foam that arises when you pour vinegar on baking soda. But what if qualia are so remarkably powerful at processing information precisely because they are not just simple local phenomena, but something more akin to shared access to some pool or network of resources of an unknown type? For those who already suspect that qualia are a quantum mechanical effect, this would not even be much of leap. These days you can buy off-the-shelf communication encryption devices that spookily entangle particles of light that are many kilometers apart, so it is no stretch at all to say that the quantum world is broader and stranger than our local-only classical perspective.

I like to think that qualia are either simpler or more complicated than the quantum world. When we finally get around to figuring out whether your mental image of green and my mental image of green are the same, or that what I call green is what you call red, I suspect we will whack our foreheads with the backs of our hands and say "why didn't we see that before?"

If qualia are not just local effects -- if they somehow represent limited peeks into a much larger world in which the colors of human rainbows are nothing more than a starting point (which some birds and butterflies already know) -- then your own point about what is fundamental becomes more immediate and personal:

"Something is truly fundamental if it could not have been otherwise."

And so you have persuaded me to a broader perspective. Without qualia we are nothing but more machinery, striving to remain alive and acting out the part, but with no more awareness of that life than has the glowing image of a great actor on a television screen. It is only our access to qualia that puts meaning into the bodies that are our images of life projected into this chaotic universe. That makes qualia far more than just helpers in our striving to survive. It makes the something that could not have been otherwise, for otherwise no one reading these words would even care.

Cheers,

Terry

Fundamental as Fewer Bits by Terry Bollinger (Essay 3099)

Essayist's Rating Pledge by Terry Bollinger

P.S. -- You forgot to add in the chiral particle counts in Table 1. Chirality doubles the number of most of the fermions, except for the odd and fascinating case of neutrinos. If you are interested in seeing more and more precise info on this issue, please try out the online Elementary Particle Explorer by Garrett Lisi, Troy Gardner, and Greg Little.

    The notion that qualia are useful reminded me of something I read the other day in Ancillary Justice, a scifi novel by Ann Leckie, recommended to me by my literary son. In this story it's taken for granted that advanced AI systems have feelings - since "Without feelings insignificant decisions become excruciating attempts to compare endless arrays of inconsequential things. It's just easier to handle those with emotions."

    Conrad

    Dear Marc,

    It is good to see again an essay of yours in this contest.

    One interesting point in your essay is the distinction between ontological and epistemological fundamentality. I accept the distinction as you have drawn it. However, I would tend to identify fundamentality as it presents itself in scientific theories with an estimate of ontological fundamentality. Thus, when fundamentality is ascribed in a theory, it is not epistemological fundamentality that is meant. So, it is necessary to distinguish genuine ontological fundamentality (i.e., "the fundamentality of reality itself," as you describe it on page 7) from our best theoretical estimate of what that fundamentality is. Neither one is epistemological fundamentality. From this perspective my interpretation of the story about the panelists from the 2016 conference (page 6) might differ from your interpretation. I think they might have been voting about ontological fundamentality. As you point out with the reference to Descartes' cogito, it is hard to deny that consciousness is epistemologically fundamental. So a vote on that does not seem necessary. But then, I did not attend the conference, so this is only my interpretation.

    I think that the idea of non-arbitrariness (page 8) is important. I agree that the best current theories ascribe a considerable amount of arbitrariness to the facts of the world. I am inclined to consider non-arbitrariness a separate feature from fundamentality. In this view, fundamentality is a matter of the arrows of explanation, as discussed particularly on pages 1 and 2 and then again on page 6. At present the arrows cannot all be traced back to a core of fundamental truths. Nonetheless, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the world is organized in that coherent way. By contrast, it does not seem likely that the primary truths are non-arbitrary. So, non-arbitrariness is different from the distinctive order built on the relation of explanations in terms of more fundamental truths.

    I agree, that, if all possibilities are real, then there is no arbitrariness, as you also discuss on page 8. I would guess that for the infinite ensemble there is only one fundamental truth, namely, that everything is true (somehow, somewhere). If that is so, then the concept of fundamentality does not apply in infinite-reality theories to the same extent that it applies in more standard theories.

    Laurence Hitterdale

      Dear Laurence,

      It is indeed good to talk to you again in this contest. Thank you for the interesting remarks you made about my essay. I pretty much agree with everything you said! In particular, the possible ambiguity between ontological fundamentality and epistemological fundamentality makes it very difficult to interpret the results of my "poll" on the relative fundamentality of consciousness vs space/time/physics.

      I also agree that "local fundamentality", that is, the fundamentality of our observable corner of reality, need not possess the attribute of non-arbitrariness. That is why, in my essay, I wait until the section on "metaphysics" to bring in non-arbitrariness. Now, once you start thinking metaphysically and try to come up with a non-arbitrary ultimate explanation, you may as well go for a very classy T-shirt, with only a black circle that signifies All=nothing! Within that worldview, the concept of fundamentality loses some (or all?) of its importance, as well as everything else. And perhaps, the "depressing/distressing" possibility that consciousness is not more fundamental than anything else, that you describe so eloquently in your own essay, may also lose most of its "sting"...

      I will see you on the other side... I mean, on your essay's thread! ;)

      Marc

        Oops, instead of replying here, I replied bellow! :)

        Mr. Séguin,

        I fully enjoyed the way you put things together it and I think further words are useless.

        Rated accordingly.

        If you would have the pleasure for a short axiomatic approach of the subject, I will appreciate your opinion.

        Silviu

          Thank you Silviu!

          Time is short, but I will go take a look at your essay...

          All the best,

          Marc

          Dear Marc,

          just yesterday I remembered something that could conceptually fit into your All=nothing equation. Instead of assuming that All happens at the same "time", I suspect that All is existent at the same "time" in potentia.

          By differentiating between actual and potential, one could gain a distinction between existence and change (and hence time).

          Just wanted to mention it, since although it is an old classical distinction, I think it could nonetheless be of conceptual value philosophically.

          Beg your pardon, Mr. Seguin

          I noticed some "guardian angels", that are trying to protect me, grading my essay with one's (I'm sure that they wanted some ten's for mr, but that zero, for sure scared them). Due to this remark I decide to play the role of the "heretic" and play this game by myself.

          Your understandings of my 3 pages are enough for me (and for my good mental peace) and I do appreciate that a lot. But in order to play effectively this game (and to get as much as I can out of it), I need to compensate the work of my protecting friends. So I hope I'm not being to intrusive by asking if you graded me or not (not a single problem if you don't want to, but at least I have the certainty that you didn't forget)

          Apologies for my words, but I do hope that you have the sense of humor, as a game needs to be played in order to say that I'm playing

          Respectfully,

          Silviu

          Marc,

          I see I hadn't rated yours. Hold on tight for a mo.

          Very best

          Peter

          Atoms are stable because electrons behave as quantum particles, not as classical particles. The wave-particle duality is a serious misunderstanding of QM that is avoided in advanced textbooks in the topic. From Ballentine:

          "Are "particles" really "waves"? In the early experiments, the diffraction patterns were detected holistically by means of a photographic plate, which could not detect individual particles. As a result, the notion grew that particle and wave properties were mutually incompatible, or complementary, in the sense that different measurement apparatuses would be required to observe them. That idea, however, was only an unfortunate generalization from a technological limitation. Today it is possible to detect the arrival of individual electrons, and to see the diffraction pattern emerge as a statistical pattern made up of many small spots (Tonomura et al., 1989)."

          From Siverman:

          "The manifestations of wave-like behavior are statistical in nature and always emerge from the collective outcome of many electron events. In the present experiment nothing wave-like is discernible in the arrival of single electrons at the observation plane. It is only after the arrival of perhaps tens of thousands of electrons that a pattern interpretable as wave-like interference emerges."

          As I said in my former post particles always behave as particles. That wave-like phenomena refers to the collective behavior of ensembles of particles.

          Some areas are grey and open to further research. Other areas are simply maintained in a perennial grey status by certain people interested in receiving grants and so.

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