I don't think it at all difficult to grasp that what we see emerges from observation. A leap too far is ""Our theory says that only observations are fundamentally 'real'", Markus Mueller. I think this begs the question what do you mean by real or what is reality? There is of course what we experience as reality from sensory perception and the reality of which we are a part as material bodies. The observer beable is necessary for the generation of the limited product of observation. The brain is able to do the necessary calculations to transform meaningless sensory input into a representation of the world that be understood and is useful in navigation and hence survival. What has been encountered before might facilitate the process and aid perception but is not limiting what can be observed. I.e. Not limiting what exists to be seen.
Could Consciousness Forge the Universe?
Hi Roger, prior to processing into a meaningful product potential sensory information is meaningless, it is just what it is -such as unmeasured EM radiation or unmeasured pressure waves in air. Not having measurements does not make the potential stimuli non existent but just unknown or not yet known. That is a difference between a 0, non existence and 1, something (that can be something but unknown or not yet known). Agreeing with you that the nothing has to be something really. But it is important not to give prime importance to the observation product but also consider the origin of the potential stimuli, emitted from material beable sources. Also the necessity of the observer not being within the space-time product it generates but belonging to that separate category of reality, with the other beables.
The article takes another leap too far in my opinion; from discussion of observations to them controlling the universe (which I am taking to mean the material universe where physics happens), the laws of physics, and why "business as usual" rather than bizarre physics is the norm. I think the brain is limited in the kinds of product it can generate given its material condition and well functioning biochemistry. Drugs altering brain function or brain damage or disease can affect the kinds of product generated which fall out of the norm -but these are product generation errors not a different state of the externally existing beable universe.
Georgina: Hi. Thanks for the reply! I'm not necessarily questioning that what the reality we observe emerges from reality (although, I think there are a few other interpretations of quantum mechanics besides this, too), but I got the feeling from the article that Dr. Mueller, or the author, think this explains reality at its most fundamental level (e.g., where does it all come from, why/how, etc.). So, I'd agree with your statement that it's "a leap too far" that only observations or consciousness is fundamentally real. For me, I'm more interested in what is fundamentally real where I don't think we can assume that math or observations are there.
This reminds me very much of Mermin's latest paper. I'll just quote the abstract here:
"We still lack any consensus about what one is actually talking about as one uses quantum mechanics. There is a gap between the abstract terms in which the theory is couched and the phenomena the theory enables each of us to account for so well. Because it has no practical consequences for how we each use quantum mechanics to deal with physical problems, this cognitive dissonance has managed to coexist with the quantum theory from the very beginning. The absence of conceptual clarity for almost a century suggests that the problem might lie in some implicit misconceptions about the nature of scientific explanation that are deeply held by virtually all physicists, but are rarely explicitly acknowledged. I describe here such unvoiced but widely shared assumptions. Rejecting them clarifies and unifies a range of obscure remarks about quantum mechanics made almost from the beginning by some of the giants of physics, many of whom are held to be in deep disagreement. This new view of physics requires physicists to think about science in an unfamiliar way. My primary purpose is to explain the new perspective and urge that it be taken seriously. My secondary aims are to explain why this perspective differs significantly from what Bohr, Heisenberg, and Pauli had been saying from the very beginning, and why it is not solipsism, as some have maintained. To emphasize that this is a general view of science, and not just of quantum mechanics, I apply it to a long-standing puzzle in classical physics: the apparent inability of physics to give any meaning to "Now" --- the present moment."
https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.01639
I have a paper 'The ineffable 'now' in physics' that I haven't put on the Arxiv but is submitted to a journal.
Paul
Markus Mueller's attempt to reconcile consciousness with an external world is worth reading and digesting and I thank him for having taken the effort to write those 81 pages and publish them.
Nonetheless the main tools of this approach are, in my opinion, somewhat fuzzy, like for example "mathematics" and "irreducible randomness". Surely, we know mathematics as THE rock solid and precise framework of lawful behaviour, but with the extra ingredient of irreducible randomness one must ask where such randomness should come from within the framework of mathematics and what should be it's fundamental place within mathematics.
Albeit the paper of Mueller isn't a metaphysical discussion about the meaning of maths, Solomonoff induction gives us the impression that lawful behaviour in the mathematical sense is somewhat timeless, enduring and non-changing. But irreducible randomness seems to counteract this impression. Therefore one has to assume that there is a timeless law, eduring and non-changing that dictates that the information-theoretic processes Müller wrote of should be somewhat linked to the permanent appearance of irreducible randomness (random bit-strings).
With this, mathematics turns out to be a dynamical "thing", since irreducible randomness is somewhat fed into the deterministical equations of classical maths. Moreover, it isn't quite clear what irreducible randomness should definitely mean. It could well be that within an infinitely long irreducible bit-string, there are parts of it that represent "lawful patterns".
It seems clear to me that one way or the other, by asking for the fundamentals of physical reality, one has to assume some kind of emergence of physical reality from some underlying truth. If that truth should be identified as pure randomness (an infinitely long irreducible bit-string with some "lawful patterns" within it), randomness and lawful patterns wouldn't be anymore what we thought them to be - since they obviously are able to generate non-fluctuating observations that moreover enable some kind of Solomonoff induction about them. Besides the quest for the nature of conscious observation within this (crazy?) framework (remember, within this framework, "maths" and "irreducible randomness" do at least begin to grasp their own existence and interplay), there must exist something deeper that enables these conscious observers to trace back the emergence of an external world to some underlying dynamics. If lawful patterns (classical maths) and irreducible randomness are able to do just that, we either have to radically redefine our notion of both or to assume that both aren't the very end of the story.
By the way, Solomonoff induction enables one to induce that consciousness does not necessarily need a physical vehicle. One only has to study the huge body of near-death studies and experiences, together with the moral teachings of the world religions. In essence, they all converge asymtotically into the statement that there is a more real realm beyond physical reality. Granted that physical reality should then emerge in some way or another from that more real realm. The thing that is important about Mueller's approach is that "more or less real" must be understood in terms of information-theoretic simulations arguments, since we have no other clue about its real nature. But if we take information-theoretic arguments serious, we can conclude that "information" at its fundamental level, should, one way or the other, have something to do what have called in my latest fqxi essay as "truth".
Paul, I can't access the article. "The computer you are using is not registered by an institution with a subscription to this article."
Re. "the apparent inability of physics to give any meaning to "Now" --- the present moment."P.M. It is something i have spent more than a decade addressing. What I call '-Now' is categorically different from 'the present moment'. The present being the current experience of an observer. -Now being the existing configuration of the material universe. Perhaps you could give a brief summary of how you regard 'Now" and the "the present moment". I am interested in potential overlap of our ideas and the potential for confusion (or further exacerbation of general confusion) by use of similar words for different meanings by different people.
Roger, That ties in with the last essay competition "What is fundamental?" In my entry "Universe soup and sandcastles" I wrote
"A universe can not be constituted of nothing. Nothing can arise from nothing and that is very dull, as is the mathematics of nothing. Something rather than nothing, existence rather than void is a foundational necessity. To be a universe that has physics, chemistry and biology happening, the existent something must have the quality of being able to have different distributions. More here, less there, so that from unknown (as it shares no information about itself),base existence, other kinds of existence can be happening and identified. Then there can be quantities and categories and geometry and mathematics is more interesting."GW
just go to https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.01639
I did that. I just get the David Mermin abstract that you have already written here. Clicking DOI takes me to a subscription page or option to buy the article. I am not affiliated with any organization. I don't have spare money to use purchasing journal papers.
Why not share briefly here your 'takeaway' from the D. Mermin paper, and your own ideas and terminology re. Now and the present moment.
Georgina: I think it works if you click on the PDF. I'm like you and can't afford paywalls.
Yes, thank you. Was there something in particular in that article that you wanted to discuss? I think the approach D. Mermin sets out puts too much emphasis on the subjective. While a probability is a subjective expectation it does also have a component that belongs to the material world outside of the mind. The probability of an individual die roll is different from the probability of heads or tails of a coin. Not because the actor thinks so but because of difference in 'pluripotency' of the objects. (Borrowing a word from biology meaning here the ability to give all possible outcomes). A pluripotent die has 6 outcome possibilities a coin only two. The outcome depends on how the method and the particular object (independent of the actor's subjective 'world') work together. Just saying the outcome is how the world responds to the actor skips over that.
I think that pluripotent quality of independent (of the mind) existing objects, being all that they are, having potential,as sources, to lead to different observations is an important difference compared to seen (manifestations of) objects, the space-time observation products of observers; not having pluripotency but limited or partial likenesses within subjective experience. It can also be thought of as the difference between what can be described as a quantum system, with uni-temporal(same time everywhere) time, and a classical (space-time) one.
Consciousness forges our perception of the universe, not the universe itself.
"the quantum physicist's radical new take on reality seems to suggest that the world we see emerges from our observations." This is not new. It was obvious to the ancient Greek philosophers. The problem is, physicists have failed to grasp the distinction that the "world we see" is not the same sort of thing as the "world as it is."
"Our theory says that only observations are fundamentally 'real'." I think, therefore I am: Our thoughts are the only thing that we ever perceive. But what we think nature is, and what it actually is, are two very different things.
"questioning one of our most basic assumptions that we operate on as human beings: that reality is objective and pre-dates us." Our reality is entirely subjective - a virtual reality created entirely by our brain - that, among other things, attempts to construct models of reality, that physicists subsequently confuse for reality itself.
"For example, before we measure a quantum system, it can hold contradictory properties" No. It merely seems contradictory, because the constructed model fails to correctly account for the behavior of entities that manifest only a single-bit-of-information.
"When we observe it, we force the system to assume a particular state" No. We only force our model of it, not the thing itself, into a particular state. A coin does not suddenly become one-sided, simply because an observer "calls it" either "heads" or "tails".
"Can that give you something that allows you to predict what you'll see" No. Deductive logic can only derive conclusions that follow from some premises. But it cannot establish the validity of the premises. Information, in Shannon's Information Theory, is, in essence, defined to be "that which is not predictable."
"algorithmic information theory will find many applications in physics in the future" True. But it is Shannon's original Information Theory, that really explains the nature of quantum theory, not the later-developed, algorithmic information theory.
"Surely the defining feature of agents should be that they act?" And the most fundamental possible action, is to simply detect the existence of something else- by interacting with it. That is what single-bit detection, is all about.
"Choosing one's actions is a secondary notion that should not be a fundamental part of any physical theory" No. You do not get to choose to act with something, until AFTER that something has been detected. "choosing" what to detect in the first-place, DEFINES the things you can interact with.
"radically different approaches are, in my opinion, desperately needed." I agree. But this one is not radical enough.
Rob McEachern
To be even more useful I'd like to adopt the terms plupotoent and multipotent. An embryonic human stem cell can form all kinds of tissue. That is called being pluripotent. An older stem cell can only form some tissue types and that is called being multipotent. An existing object with no context, such as orientation or method by which it will be observed, is pluripotent. Rather than providing just 6 outcomes possibilities as I said in previous post,the pluripotent die has potential for more. Such as all the possible outcomes should it be thrown into partially set jelly rather than onto a flat surface.When the method has been chosen an artificial constraint has been applied; only the probability of some allowed outcomes are considered. There has been a change from considering a 'wild' multipotent object to considering a context limited multipotent one.
What do people think of
https://philpapers.org/rec/MERTIN-4
?
Hi Georgina. What do you think of https://philpapers.org/rec/MERTIN-4 ?
[deleted]
Tom Campbell has a book based on this. Check "My big toe"
Paul, I have replied on the "Alternative models of reality" page.
Like.
"For example, before we measure a quantum system, it can hold contradictory properties" SH. I think the contradiction comes from labeling the object or phenomenon with the possible outcome states which can not be found simultaneously, only one. Rather than allowing it the potential to manifest different states according to the unfolding of the circumstances of the test that is carried out, and the condition of the test subject entering the test. It is contradictory to say a coin is heads outcome and tails outcome prior to testing but not to say it has the potential to manifest either outcome. (A coin unlike a subatomic particle that can only give one result, can give more than one outcome- if tossed onto a glass table both outcomes could be seen if allowed by the chosen method at the outset.)