Electron time, mass and zitter by David Hestenes

Very good essay but it has little to do with the "nature of time"

Dear Dr. Hestenes,

Did you read the book "Schroedinger - Life and Thought"?

It contains an erotic poem by Schroedinger: Zittern.

My factual criticism of Schroedinger can be found in

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/369.

Regards,

Eckard Blumschein

Dear David,

Your late submission permitted me to see your essay only now. It is significantly informative for me as i was not aware of the aspect touched-electron time due to its zitter!The huge frequency of zitter is mind boggling 10 E21 Hz.You say that electron moves in circular motion with speed of light about the spinning direction.In fact the spinning itself arises from circular spinning about its own axis! It all sounds quite a bit imaginative for a point particle like the compton radius of the electron.If one questions the concepts of space time and have alternative description, the spce-time history of electron will go too to sustain the zitter model.The channeling experiment has just been done only once. from what i know about channeling, it is very tough experiment to conduct. The interpretation is based on single row/plane of the crystal in theoretical considerations. But actual experiment yields depend on contributions from the neighbouring rows/planes, besides consideration of crystal defects. These can affect the interpretation of results. The experiment needs more than one repetition at different laboratories to substantiate the Zitter and its universality, being proposed.Your connection of this aspect to the dark matter also does not seem to have attracted the cosmologists thus far!

In making these comments, i certainly don't mean to be critical of your unique essay on a unique aspect. Let us repeat the channeling experiment at 2, 3 different labs of repute around the world. The significance to me lies in uuderstanding Gravity better than what we know currently, as the Unified field is being defied ,the other three field components get unified! Also, what will be the consequence of a varying value of 'c' that has been experimentally observed to have slightly lost its value closer to the birth of the Universe? The changes in 'c' may affect your zitter model's mathematical equations!

Dear David,

Before getting into a discussion of your essay, let me say I hope to see an intro physics text based on clifford algebra someday! (Am J Phys v71, #2, 2003, p104)

I realize you had to leave much out of your essay, so maybe these three naive questions result fm that fact:

1) Do I understand correctly that you want a massive particle, the electron, to follow a null path?

2) What force supplies the centripetal acceleration for the helical motion?

3) The picture seems very classical, much like that of an electron in orbit about the nucleus. We know that picture doesn't work b/c the electron would promptly irradiate away its orbital energy and spiral into the nucleus. Why doesn't that happen in this model?

Thanks,

Mark

Enjoyed reading your essay, although I found some of it to be heavy going. But I am intrigued by the notion of helical lightlike trajectories around timelike worldlines. Could this mean that all fundamental particles are "really" massless? Could the "transverse" directions be unphysical? After all, null vectors in higher dimensional spacetimes project to causal (null or timelike) vectors in lower dimensions!

Dear David Hestenes,

The received results mean the nonzero sizes of the electron or the electron remains a dot particle? The question is put in a context of an essay The Theory of Time, Space and Gravitation, where the conclusion about the nonzero sizes of any material particle is presented.

Regards,

Robert Sadykov

My post of Dec.,07 remains unresponded. The reliability of your innovative concepts is much tied to the Channeling Experiment's reliability that has been commented upon in the said post!

David,

You summed up, "Perhaps gravitational torsion due to

spin, like gravitational force due to mass, is negligible at the atomic level but accumulates to an

observable effect at the galactic level. Enough said!"

Enough indeed. My own calculation for concservation of angular momentum even at the planetary level (FQXI, "Time Counts") is a tiny but not negligible difference from the classical expectation of about 8.96 X 10^-7 sec for the example given (sun-earth relation)--meaning a tiny loss of time due to energy dissipation.

Thanks for a well done and enlightening essay!

Tom

Dear prof. Hestenes,

I liked your essay. It is very important, that the helical world line of the Dirac particle, predicted by your Zitter-Dirac model, was confirmed experimentally. There is an important detail, connected with the helical world line. Besides, the helix follows from the Zitter-Dirac model , it follows also directly from the Dirac equation. One can eliminate gamma-matrices from the action for the Dirac equation by means of change of dynamic variables, and one can present the action in terms of hydrodynamic variables. (Yu.A.Rylov, "Dirac equation in terms of hydrodynamic variables" Advances in Applied Clefford Algebras, 5, pp 1-40, (1995)).

Elimination of gamma-matrices discovers two important circumstances: (1) In the hydrodynamic variables the action can be divided into two parts: classical and quantum ones, (2) description of the Dirac dynamic system appears to be nonrelativistic.

The classical part describe the statistical ensemble of classical dynamic systems S_cl. Each dynamic system S_cl has 10 degrees of freedom. Considering the dynamic system S_cl as a particle, one obtains, that the world line of this particle is a helix. Six external degrees of freedom, describing translations are described relativistically, whereas four remaining degrees of freedom describe the particle spiraling. These four degrees of freedom are described nonrelativistically.

Nonrelativistic character of spiraling is a defect of the Dirac equation. This defect does not appear in the consideration of electronic envelopes in atoms, because in this case the intrinsic structure of the electron is of no importance. But it may be important in theory of elementary particle.

It is interesting, whether this defect appears in the Zitter-Dirac model of Hestenes. Although the nature of the spiraling is not yet clear, I believe, that prediction of this spiraling and confirmation it in experiment is a very important achievement.

Sincerely yours,

Yuri Rylov

The necessity of repeatation of such an experiment is much needed as Channeling experiments need very careful interpretation , as perfect crystals structure don't exist in nature. Both lattive defects and impurities play significant role and need careful analysis!

You have my vote.

Connections

The binding of existence

This is a story, built upon knowledge, intuition, and speculation. In the end, it is built upon some known theoretically successfully tested truths, and some unknowns conveyed in a formula that I consider trumps any objections - as we ponder the scope of existence. First we know of existence, by way of our self-awareness, coupled with scientific knowledge. Second by way of the unknowns i.e., "Infinity", that must incongruously play with us (self-aware-finite creatures), in some connected manner.

This Second irascibly indefinable thing called "Infinity", simply stumps our "finite" minds every time, when we attempt to figure out its mathematical infinities. As it must. As if it did not stump our efforts to understand it, it would become defined, and anything defined, is "Finite.". So we have an absolute conundrum that operates our existence. But we are still connected, in a union, both finite and infinite, through the known attributes we have scientifically tested to be true. As without "Infinity", there can be no "Finite." And remember Infinity, has no bounds, no time, no space, no beginning and no end.

This is plainly contrary to finite logic, but Infinity simply is contrary. Always has been. And always will be. But it is also the very milk of our very finite existences... We are Connected... Our actions matter, as I will soon explain - in summary.

INFINITY: Irascible and fundamentally a necessary fickle fact. An argument that no mathematics or thought equation can defend against... To challenge this premise is to supersede infinity's very nature. It will never ever happen.

Therefore we are circumscribed to live within, the physics - largely of Newtonian and Einstein's mathematics. I would caution to note: that these finite mathematics are subject to change that currently work fairly well for our finite existence as we mathematically calculate how to penetrate and maneuver the Stars, or add 2 plus 2 to equal 4. But they do not work to unravel Quantum Mechanics (in total), and the cache of oddities, such as "Superposition's", whereby subatomic particles are in several places at one time, until they are interrupted by measurement. Or do these current finite mathematics explain "Entanglement", which allows for two subatomic elements to be millions of miles apart, however if one changes its state of "spin" or "electrical" charge the other particle millions of miles away responds instantly. Yes, this violates the concept of the speed of light as the fasted method of action in the Universe.

As Einstein called "Entanglement" Spooky, but none the less real. This seemingly violates the speed of light. But hold on, the Speed of Light travels, Entanglement implies "Connection". Or what is known as Local action.

Space is the key to this thought equation. Since space is "Infinite" to the "Finite" Observer. Space in this context is also in union with waves - as well as particles. However waves may connect all things instantly, just as waves may allow for "Superposition's."

The answer is simply that: This makes us both Local and Non-Local at the same time. Waves and or theoretical "Strings" perhaps in some union - connect our space and possibly time in ways we do not fully comprehend. If true, our infinite extended connections are observed from a finite realm only. It might be important to note here: That simply no distance is allowed in an Infinite realm, as infinity is immune to classification, therefore it is all things and no things at the same time. Make sense? It usually should not, as finite logic has a difficult time with this both intuitively and implicitly mathematically. Make sense yet?

Probably not, as this means that "Everything is Nothing and Nothing is Everything." Hence there are no real "infinites" to calculate in an Infinite realm. But this last statement is a clear oxymoron, as it should be, as infinity does not have mathematics or anything defined based in or of it. As this would imply a finite realm. It is simply infinite, and does not apply to our finite realm of mathematics.

Mathematics is purely the purview of the finite.

When I said there are really no infinities in the infinite realm. I meant it. But to us, within the finite realm or finite conscious state, as observers, Infinities are what - infinity, space and time are made of. Once again, the ultimate and infinite conundrum. However, how does this allow for the stuff of existence, such as "us", or cars, and trees and so on to exist? Well we do need infinity to have a finite realm, as I said.

That is the puzzle? That must never be answered technically, nor can it, again from a finite perspective or finite observer. This mind trap we are caught in trying to view infinity - would seem to drive one mad to think that Infinity, Space and Time have no beginning or an end.

But get use to it.

Infinity is indelible. Terms like "time" and "space" are non-words to describe Infinity correctly, as Infinity never had a beginning or an end. The space and time word terms we use within the realm of Infinities definition, or lack thereof, could not and do not exist. Unlike the finite world, which has an Alpha and Omega. (Dust to Dust, Evolution, and Space to move to, and a length of Time that life gives us to observe.

And - That is that...

We are here by way of connections of an indefinable Infinity, which has always been, and will always be. Make no mistake about it. This will provide us and others forever to give sentiency a journey to discover anew. New science from physics to health, coupled with new modes of life, new cultures to come. Save an Asteroid impacting the Earth, or a Super-Volcano taking us to our end of time as sentient beings. But others will arise, no doubt by way of times finite arrow.

The finite with a beginning and end is necessary, to find hope. Just imagine living for eternity without end. That proposition, would invoke a person to lose goals, have no new hopes, and actually impart a crazy madness of hopelessness. As you would be in the ultimate Trap, or Jail forever, if self-aware. What would be the point? One would ask themselves... And therefore, Life and Death, are necessary.

Dust to Dust and then perhaps? Take your best shot at a faithful guess! The options are many, the realities may be few. No one really knows. No one...

Plainly beyond us, the Infinite and Finite will ebb and flow, and new existences will arise through an endless connection to everything for all time...

Essential Points:

1. The Science is: That Infinity is incomprehensible to any complete understanding and, the Finite is limited to understanding all things, perhaps itself and certainly infinity. The connection between the finite and the infinite operate as if Everything is Nothing and Nothing is Everything... Have fun with that analogy! As for me, it holds true, as it confirms to me that cognitive logic eventually meets the illogic of Infinity. This lets us clearly know we will never actually know honestly and truthfully the great questions of life: As to know "ALL" or "Truth" would be to actually define a place and a time, which can only be finite. And that would defy the rules of Infinity, which cannot be technically ever defined. Otherwise it is no longer infinite; it would then become as a mere canvas with parameters. And Infinity is incomprehensible. End of Story - Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow... In other words Forever!

2. The Moral is: That Legacies matter. Build a good one. The Butterfly Effect is always on... And that is what really matters.

All the best in our journey's, Russ Otter

www.otterthink.blogspot.com

If the channeling experiment is confirmed this proves the neorealist interpretation of QM (the Paris school) is correct. There is a particle and a wave!(See Nick Herbert's book "Quantum Reality.")

You reference Huang's 1949 paper. He has twice the spiral radius as yours, so he can account for the electron magnetic moment. If you put beta = 1 and p = 0 in his equation 27 you can also account for the electron spin by assuming the inertial mass of the electron in the spin mode is only one half its normal translational mass.