Essay Abstract

Can consciousness be completely reduced to physical processes or computation? To answer this question, we'll have to critically review the domain of science, in particular physical processes and computation. A serious limitation is found: science only deals with relations, not with the nature of things. We are led to a formulation of the hard problem of consciousness, which I hope makes it clear for the more skeptical ones that there is a hard problem. Science can be used to approach this problem, but only in an indirect way. We will see that the hypothesis that there is something fundamental about consciousness makes testable predictions.

Author Bio

Theoretical/mathematical physicist, formerly computer programmer. Research interests: foundations of physics, gauge theory, foundations of quantum mechanics, singularities in general relativity. Interested especially in the geometric aspects of the physical laws. ArXiv: http://arxiv.org/a/stoica_o_1 Blog: http://www.unitaryflow.com/

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Hi Cristi,

I am happy to see your essay on this Contest. I liked a lot your approach for this consciousness, its limitations and its computability, a very relevant analysis, general, I wish you all the best,

Friendly, regards

    Hi Steve,

    Good to see you, thanks for reading it. I wish you all the best too!

    Regards,

    Cristi

    Dear Christi Stoica,

    A very enjoyable and valuable essay. Yes, theory is about making structural hypotheses, and science deals with relations only, not with the nature of things. When we declare the nature, we make a metaphysical choice; we choose an ontology. My current essay Deciding on the nature of time and space is about deciding on this choice.

    You say to go beyond relations is to "contaminate with intuition..."

    Klaas Landsman, commenting to Noson Yanofsky: "I am increasingly beginning to believe that we should incorporate intuitionistic math into,(quantum) physics...". I'm not sure what this means but I know others in this contest favor reconsidering intuition.

    I believe your topic, 'Sentience, the ontology of experience', is well suited to explore intuition, which derives either from Being or from our experience.

    One drum I regularly beat is that physicists project math structure on the world, then come to believe that the world actually has that structure. If not, false premises mar the theory. 'Qubits' for example lead to non-locality.

    You propose 'easy problems' as fully expressible in terms of relations. In John Schultz's essay, I believe he would characterize these as 'algorithmic patterns'. He claims, and I buy it, that limitation theorems are algorithmic, while non-algorithmic patterns pose no necessary limitations on knowability. I recommend his essay. I suggest that non-algorithmic patterns are the basis of 'intuition', and knowability is not limited by any theorems.

    I relate this to the universal consciousness field, which I identify with the gravitomagnetic field [your Case 2 substrate] in the present [see my essay]. The field is, of course, self-interacting and also interacts with mass density flows in axons and across synaptic gaps. Logical patterns exist, whereby we obtain logic, but non-algorithmic patterns in the dynamic self-interacting field are not logic constrained, but intuition-based, in essence the self awareness that transcends relations, as the field is locally dense but contiguous with the universe.

    An extremely valuable essay, thank you!

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Edwin,

      Thanks for the careful reading and the well thought comments.

      > When we declare the nature, we make a metaphysical choice; we choose an ontology.

      Exactly.

      About Klaas' comment you mention, to incorporate intuitionistic math (idea that I think is shared by Flavio too), this is in the line with what I tried to say, more that it may seem at a first sight. Intuitionism in math is not about intuition in the same sense as the one I used in my essay, but about avoiding assumptions with infinitely long shot, a thing with which I resonate.

      About the usual meaning of intuition, I am very much in favor of it, but I see it like a step of a stair, you don't take the step with you when you climb the stair. You form new intuition along the way. I have the feeling that you think the same about this.

      > physicists project math structure on the world, then come to believe that the world actually has that structure

      I think the same as you. Projecting math structures is a particular type of projecting assumptions. This bothers me too, and I think I base my research in general on trying to also undo some of the mathematical assumptions made by physicists in an ad-hoc manner, under the pressure of history. I am just as human as the others are, so most likely I project my own assumptions on everything, even if I try to avoid this.

      In fact, the intention to not be committed in the analysis made in this essay to a particular math structure led me to use dynamical systems as a general framework able to include all known theories in physics as particular cases. When talking about foundations, I don't want to miss some possibilities by relying on a particular human construct. Dynamical systems are human constructions too, but at least they are general enough to include the other theories as particular cases, which allows me to say general things without committing to particular models.

      > I relate this to the universal consciousness field, which I identify with the gravitomagnetic field [your Case 2 substrate] in the present [see my essay].

      An interesting thing is that I've heard recently three unrelated known people working at the hard problem of consciousness and supporters of panpsychism, mentioning gravity (maybe they didn't know about the gravitomagnetic field) as a possible example of physical field that could be associated to consciousness. I look forward to read more about this in your essay. Based on your previous essays I expect another good reading.

      Cheers,

      Cristi

      Dear Christi,

      I'm glad to see you enter this contest; your essays always bring an interesting point of view or novel argumentation to the table. This year's does not disappoint.

      Intriguingly, there seems to be some degree of confluence of thought between your particular neutral monist stance, and the one I defended in a recent publication (https://doi.org/10.1007/s11023-020-09522-x). Basically, your view seems to be close to Strawson's physicalist panpsychism, which I characterize by the following two main theses:

      PP1: In experience we are immediately presented with the intrinsic nature of physical stuff, which is inherently experiential.

      PP2: Theories are purely structural or relational in form.

      The second thesis, which goes back to Russell's causal theory of perception, and has roots as well in Eddington's structuralism (who talks memorably about the 'inner un-get-atable nature' of matter), I think both of us share, and likewise, the thesis that this relational structure does not suffice for conscious experience.

      I think you may want to accept the first thesis---your S essentially being the intrinsic properties grounding the relational mathematical structure of P---whereas I ultimately reject it, substituting instead a different model of how 'structure-transcending properties' of the world can come to attention in the mind, thus grounding experience without themselves necessarily being experiential (or elements of sentience).

      So I do agree that the relational structure as present in our theories needs grounding by some structure-transcending properties, and that it is those which are, properly understood, ultimately what ground subjective experience; but I don't think that these properties simply are experiential in themselves, essentially because I think the resulting panpsychism or pan-experientialism faces some difficult challenges, such as the notorious combination problem. Hence, I propose that the intrinsic must be used in the right way---essentially, as grounding our models of the outside world---in order to yield conscious experience.

      We also seem to look to similar sources for inspiration---the quote from the Tao you use to preface section 6, I used as the hook for my entry in the previous FQXi contest, 'Four Verses from the Daodejing', which contained precursors to many of the notions in the 'Minds and Machines'-article. Indeed, some of it even turned up in my very first FQXi-entry, 2013's 'Informational Ontologies and 'Hard' Problems', which pointed out the underdetermination of the character of physical objects by relational structure: "[I]nformation is only concerned with differences. Wherever there is a difference, wherever you can tell apart one thing from another, you have information; and only this difference structure is straightforwardly encoded in the information state. [...] But this difference structure is not enough to recover the physical state of an object: the informational underdetermines the physical."

      Furthermore, later, it goes on to argue that "information has an intrinsically relational character"---hence arriving at the insufficiency of a purely relational characterization. And of course, the basic point of that essay was that such underdetermination is at the root of the 'Hard Problem' (which I still think is the case, even if I no longer agree with the solution outlined back then). There's also already a tentative connection to quantum mechanics being made, which I've since gone on to flesh out some more, see this year's essay and my paper in 'Foundations of Physics' (https://doi.org/10.1007/s10701-018-0221-9).

      Anyway, I'm sorry about the extensive self-quoting; I don't mean to be vain, but I wanted to underscore that there indeed seems to be some amount of convergence between our views. This, to me, always indicates that we're not merely barking at shadows---if two people are led to similar views along independent routes, one just might hope that there's something worthwhile to find at that destination.

      Hence, thanks for this eminently readable and thought-provoking essay. I'll have to take some time to digest your larger piece, and perhaps return with some further comments and questions. Good luck in the contest!

      Cheers

      Jochen

        Respected Prof Cristinel Stoica,

        Thank you for presenting a wonderful essay on Human Consciousness.

        In my opinion this inner Consciousness is a constant guidance force which guides all aspects of life..

        for particles like electron, this may the charge. For astronomical bodies this the Universal Gravitational Force acting on that body at that instant of time and space (UGF). This UGF varies with time and space and configuration of Universe around it at that instant.

        You have defined VERY NICELY what is NOT consciousness in general. Very good!!

        Hope you can spend a little time on my essay to see how the above definitions in more detail.

        I hope to have lively discussion with you on your thinking.

        Best wishes for your essay!!!

        =snp

          Dear Jochen,

          Good to see you, and thank you for the careful reading of my essay.

          > I think you may want to accept the first thesis---your S essentially being the intrinsic properties grounding the relational mathematical structure of P

          By S I mean the "speakable" related to sentience, but not sentience itself. Sentience is the ontology of S. I find that the most natural solution is S=P.

          > I think the resulting panpsychism or pan-experientialism faces some difficult challenges, such as the notorious combination problem.

          I think the same. I think S=P is like pan-experientialism, but I don't think it faces the combination problem, because I don't think there are separate units of sentience, rather sentience is the ontology of both S and P (is this different from "grounding our models"?). I think fundamental sentience faces another problem, which I called "the climbing problem" in my extended essay The negative way to sentience. But, while this is a problem, it allows Hypothesis 1 to make empirical predictions and be falsifiable, which I think it's a good thing.

          > if two people are led to similar views along independent routes, one just might hope that there's something worthwhile to find at that destination

          Indeed, this qualifies as "intersubjective verification", which I mentioned in "The negative way to sentience". If you have comments, I look forward to hear them, no matter if you disagree, I have this on ResearchGate with the words "comments welcome" in the title, since I'm still collecting feedback. At the same time, I'm looking forward to read yours, and I expect, based on your previous ones, that I will love it.

          Cheers,

          Cristi

          Dear Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta,

          Thank you for the careful consideration of my essay. Based on your comment, I think we both take the position that S=P and sentience underlies them.

          > You have defined VERY NICELY what is NOT consciousness in general. Very good!!

          I guess you noticed that I took a neti neti (नेति नेति) path, as the title of my longer essay, The negative way to sentience, suggests.

          > Hope you can spend a little time on my essay to see how the above definitions in more detail.

          I'd love to!

          > I hope to have lively discussion with you on your thinking.

          > Best wishes for your essay!!!

          I wish the same to you too! Take care!

          Cheers,

          Cristi

          Respected Prof Cristinel Stoica,

          You got a wonderful interest in Indian Philosophy , and tried to add mathematics in that too! I just saw your paper negative Philosophy, I will study it little later ... Very Good!!!

          I don't know How much deep you went into "neti neti (नेति नेति)" path.It is a difficult path. There is positive path also. It is called "observer becomes observed", do you know that??? Of course it is also a difficult path. There are 1000's of 'Rishi's each and every one had his own path!!!

          Ultimately you have to find your own path to Nirvana............

          Best wishes

          =snp

          Dear Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta,

          Please call me Cristi. Thanks for your appreciation, it's reciprocal. Indeed, the "negative path" is normally used in the sense you mentioned, as a way to Nirvana. What I mean by negative way or neti neti in the context of my longer essay is mainly science as a negative way. Science allows hypotheses then rejects them. Most powerful results come as no-go theorems, which is also the theme of this contest. The body of science grows, which gives the impression that it's a "positive growth", an accumulation of knowledge. But positivism is no longer the way of science. In some sense the body of knowledge is growing, but the attachment to the accumulated knowledge is not in the spirit of science itself, which works by negation. All of the models and theories are to be seen as provisional hypotheses, always in search for contrary evidence. It's the way of skepticism, in the proper meaning of the word, which is the same as in negative mysticism, but applied to science. As for neti neti as a personal path, my ego probably wants a piece of Nirvana too :) I have no worries about this, my ego is just an ephemeral cloud on the blue sky. It's a form of experience, I take it as it is, with the goods and the bads. Nature built these neural networks as a form of life, and as neural networks, they are made out of biases. But a cloud can neither help nor do any harm to the unchanging blue sky, it's just a playful fluctuation of oblivion which gives too much importance to itself :)

          Cheers,

          Cristi

          Dear Christi,

          thanks for your reply. I had misunderstood the precise meaning of your 'S'---it seems to me, you use it to refer to the relational structure of 'sentience'? If so, then I guess what you mean by 'ontology of sentience' is what I mean by 'structure-transcending properties'. I had thought you were using S to refer to this ontology itself, as sort of a set in want of a structure, with P being a structure of relations in want of relata, then using one to fill the other's gap.

          As for the combination problem, I think I don't quite grasp what exactly you mean by the term 'ontology of sentience'. Do you mean it in the sense of a singular experiential reality? If so, then it's not obvious to me how (what appear like) individual minds emerge from this---something I think I've seen called the 'separation problem' instead. Perhaps you can take a suggestion from Bernardo Kastrup, who argues that we're all essentially schizophrenic 'alters' of the cosmic mind? (https://iai.tv/articles/why-materialism-is-a-dead-end-bernardo-kastrup-auid-1271)

          I'm gonna go have a look at your longer treatment.

          Cheers

          Jochen

          Dear Jochen,

          Indeed, I think we can only talk about the relational structure of sentience. I tried to be more explicit in the longer article, where I discuss that we can only research "the crack". The purpose was to see what can be done by limiting, or rather by being limited to talk only about relations, not about ontology. Kastrup is the closest to how I see it from what I've read, but I think it's "metaphorical", and still at the level of relations, because "metaphor" is all that we can do about it. But I'd rather say it in another way. Suppose you're a materialist. Based on materialism, you would attribute a certain materialist ontology to a rock, a piece of ice, water, or steam. You would see it as derived from the fundamental ontology of the elementary particles. Then, if you try to replace "matter" in the materialist ontology with "sentience", you'd have of course a problem, the combination problem you mention. A better way than materialism is physicalism, and to think of particles as excitations of the quantum field, so to think of objects like some stable excitations/fluctuations of the vacuum. Then, you don't combine, it's just the field, not a combination of particles. Then, the ontology doesn't rely on a bottom-up approach starting from particles. Now replace the physicalist ontology with sentience. This would reduce the combination problem, at least apparently, since you have just a field, out of which separate fields are apparent. But the real problem is the problem of climbing: how does fundamental sentience climb the structure, from the fundamental level, to the coarse grained level that we call brain, to our minds? This view of excitations/fluctuations with the coarse graining is a metaphor that is similar to Kastrup's I think, but closer to what I mean, yet not quite what I mean, which I think it's unspeakable. The closest to what I think the explanation is, is contained in my previous essay, Indra's net, particularly in note 8, which is about the equivalence class of germs defining the holomorphic field. I didn't include this in the essay or even in the longer essay, since I wanted to allow for more options, even though I prefer S=P, and since I wanted to see how far we can go just from the most inevitable principles, i.e. by avoiding speculations.

          Cheers,

          Cristi

          Hi Christi

          I enjoyed your essay, but in terms of consciousness, there is demonstrably an AI analogue to this problem, which is in the interconnectivity of synapses in the human brain, i.e. in terms of the universe, the issue can be related to the density of neuronic pathways.

          Finding a counter part to this issue of interconnectivity to bits, and logic processors as to the human brain may be the way to extend this sort of modality to cosmological structures. I.e. we may be looking at the wrong places for determining the minimum structure needed for self awareness

          It is, in a sense directly related to the problem of what makes an entity self aware.

          In animals, i.e. Cats and Dogs, it shows up if an animal can recognize its own image in a mirror reflection. To a degree some dogs can do this, whereas cats flunk the test and try to go behind a mirror to identify if there is another cat present. Whereas the great Apes definitely DO have a working ability to recognize themselves in a mirror.

          So what is the threshold in terms of interconnectivity of some sort of cosmologically based "thinking " structure ?

          I do not know and I doubt anyone has addressed that issue in terms of biophysics. But if they did find a way to quantify interconnectity of structure with self awareness, they then would be able to map the measurable biological markers of signal interconnetivi5ty of structure with a minimum threshold allowing consciousness.

          That issue of a minimum level of interconnectivity of "thinking" or neuronic structure may be later, in some sense after we know more about what causes cognition and self awareness be mapped directly upon what we know about cosmological structures

          This is my speculation. It is meant to be in tandem with your investigations

          Andrew

            Hi Christi

            I enjoyed your essay, but in terms of consciousness, there is demonstrably an AI analogue to this problem, which is in the interconnectivity of synapses in the human brain, i.e. in terms of the universe, the issue can be related to the density of neuronic pathways.

            Finding a counter part to this issue of interconnectivity to bits, and logic processors as to the human brain may be the way to extend this sort of modality to cosmological structures. I.e. we may be looking at the wrong places for determining the minimum structure needed for self awareness

            It is, in a sense directly related to the problem of what makes an entity self aware.

            In animals, i.e. Cats and Dogs, it shows up if an animal can recognize its own image in a mirror reflection. To a degree some dogs can do this, whereas cats flunk the test and try to go behind a mirror to identify if there is another cat present. Whereas the great Apes definitely DO have a working ability to recognize themselves in a mirror.

            So what is the threshold in terms of interconnectivity of some sort of cosmologically based "thinking " structure ?

            I do not know and I doubt anyone has addressed that issue in terms of biophysics. But if they did find a way to quantify interconnectity of structure with self awareness, they then would be able to map the measurable biological markers of signal interconnetivi5ty of structure with a minimum threshold allowing consciousness.

            That issue of a minimum level of interconnectivity of "thinking" or neuronic structure may be later, in some sense after we know more about what causes cognition and self awareness be mapped directly upon what we know about cosmological structures

            This is my speculation. It is meant to be in tandem with your investigations

            Andrew

            Dear Cristi,

            thank you for great essay, very well argued and clearly written. Although I was not particularly familiar with systematic developments on the hard problem of consciousness, I think you provided an excellent analysis and good food for thought.

            I particularly appreciated your clean-dut discussion on how science is only about relations. And in particular your phrase: "We can compare nature with a book written in a language that we don't understand. Science is a way to decode the book. It proceeds by identifying various words in various contexts, and the result is a dictionary, along with some grammar rules. Each word in the dictionary is de fined in terms of other words, but there are no primary words whose meaning we understand."

            Best of luck for the contest!

            Flavio

              Dear Cristi,

              Thanks for your appreciation also, your essay is wonderful !!.

              You are correct about negativism in science. This happens and continues to happen in Physics. I got my personal experiences in my life for the last 40 years or so. Whatever the Ethical Values I kept, whatever the foundational principles were used, whatever the physical cosmological philosophies were used, whatever the predictions that came true, for Dynamic Universe Model an N-Body problem solution, whatever I got is kicks on the back, never any back patting. I am sorry about this bla bla bla.... Now I got everything positively. I did this work on Gods guidance, I will leave everything on him, I did this work for the development of science and betterment of humanity. My problem is over....

              I am requesting to see a paper on a universe model proposed by Dynamic Universe Model

              https://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.com/2018/08/new-paper-model-of-universe-as.html

              Hope you will have a visit at my essay and leave a suitable comment....

              Best Regards

              =snp

              Hi Andrew,

              Thank you for the interesting comments, which are complementary to the focus of my essay, in tandem, as you said.

              > in terms of consciousness, there is demonstrably an AI analogue to this problem, which is in the interconnectivity of synapses in the human brain, i.e. in terms of the universe, the issue can be related to the density of neuronic pathways.

              Certainly, there must be a structural side of the problem, the physical correlates of sentience. You propose a measure of this, the density of neural paths. Another one is the Phi proposed in Integrated Information Theory.

              > It is, in a sense directly related to the problem of what makes an entity self aware.

              Yes, self-awareness requires structure, to be able to include a self-representation. When I say "sentience" I mean the ontology of the structure, "what is like to be", whether self-aware or not.

              I think the so called "easy problems", those related to structure, functionality, behavior, are not easy at all, not understood yet, but understandable in principle, and they are important.

              Thanks again for considering my essay and for the comments! I'm looking forward to read yours.

              Best regards,

              Cristi

              Dear Flavio,

              I am happy to see you here again with an essay. Thank you for reading my essay and for the comments. Since you liked that passage, let me provide one from John von Neumann: you don't understand things. You just get used to them. It's a though I had independently, but I found out that he said it long before, referring to math. I think it applies much more widely. Perhaps most clearly it applies to the foundations of quantum mechanics :)

              Thanks again, I am looking forward to read it! Good luck with the contest to you too!

              Cheers,

              Cristi