Your central question seems to me among the most important in all of science! Did the universe have to be comprehensible? I don't think it did, since physics allows us to conceive of all sorts of crazy alternatives (many of which do not include us); this makes us quite lucky.

I also wonder about whether science can really be reduced to sharply worded and contextualized questions. I am inclined to believe that it can, for the most part, but it's hard to think of a way to test a philosophical claim like this.

Great point about it being important for observers to have some kind of consensus (for example, on the meaning of a question and whether a given test is appropriate for determining an answer); this is something I never thought about before, possibly due in part to physics thought experiments tending to only consider one or two observers at a time. If you had to define scientific knowledge, would it be something like a collection of 'justified' consensus beliefs among some particular group of people?

John

    Dear Ian,

    thank you for an(other) excellent, very enjoyable essay.

    I particularly liked your lapidary concluding remark "The universe has fundamental limits baked into it. But it is these very limits that allow for the universe to be comprehensible."

    Best of luck for the contest!

    Cheers,

    Flavio

      5 days later

      Dear Jochen,

      My apologies for taking so long to respond. I have been busy wrapping up the semester and trying to hire a new faculty member, all while stuck in my house. Anyway, I agree with much of what you said.

      "But I think maybe that's your point---this analyticity is precisely what hampers our inquiry into 'the things themselves', so to speak. "

      Exactly!

      Thanks again for your great comments!

      Ian

      Thanks for your comments, Jason. I agree that I probably could have gone further, but I was pushing the page limit as it was and had to cut several references just to fit that on a single page. Perhaps in a future form I will expand on it.

      Hi Yutaka! It's great to hear from you! I think the contents of my essay are directly related to the contest though, since I am essentially presenting a physical analogy of Gödelian incompleteness. But anyway, as for the anthropic principle, that's a good question. I do personally think that there is an objective reality outside of human existence and perception. That is, I absolutely believe that the universe will continue to be here once humans are long gone. But I think my aim with this essay is, rather, to say something about the limits of human knowledge, which is entirely different from the limits of objective reality.

      Hi John,

      Thanks for the comments!

      "If you had to define scientific knowledge, would it be something like a collection of 'justified' consensus beliefs among some particular group of people?"

      To some extent that's essentially what the anonymous reviewer (quoted by Eddington) said: science is the rational correlation of experience. But Eddington takes pains to define what each of those terms actually mean and so I think it's important to note that it's difficult to reduce it to a singular sentence. It is entirely possible for a group of people to act irrationally while thinking they are acting rationally. There is a certain level of "good faith" that is built into this entire enterprise. That is, we are assuming that the majority of scientists are acting in good faith.

      Thanks Flavio! Best of luck to you as well! (Your essay is on my reading list for this week...)

      Dear Professor Ian Durham,

      It was a joy reading your essay, and I think your emphasis on how we posit scientific questions, and how it constrains scientific answers is brilliant!

      Though, if I hazard a guess as a layperson ( I am merely an undergrad), that would anchor science to logic and mathematics at a formal level, would it not?

      And perhaps make the 3 un's constraining factor in our scientific quest?

      Lastly, I want to give praise to your conclusion:

      "Like the god Odin from Norse mythology, who is said to have

      sacrificed an eye in order to attain wisdom, our quest for comprehension limits our very ability to

      comprehend, and the universe remains always partially veiled."

      My submission co-authored with my brother ( Rastin Reza) speaks of an veil, and we argue such a veil concealing nature is inherently mathematical.

      I hope you find time to read it.

      Kind Regards,

      Raiyan Reza

      (PS: Both my brother and I are open to the idea that our guess based on our rudiment knowledge is crude and of course, reading all the marvelous entries at FQXI, along with further readings in, will lead us to re-evaluate our stance)

        Well, I beleive that you have some good ideas and you are a member but I am going to be frank, you beleive that you are special ? you seem to have a kind of Vanity, you beleive that you know better the generality of this universe, answer to what I tell and respect the ideas of others and answer them, if you dislike my reasonings and theory, try to critic correctly in forgetting this problem of Vanity, the problem is Always the same , people Thinks that they are better and it is not the case in fact, you speak about the comprehensibility but you cannot be comprehensible in respecting the people, and it is not comprehensible, I spoke about the Vanity and you prove that you are not comprehensible due to this parameter, The same problem exists inside the sciences Community, we are all persuaded but it exists real humble thinkers and the fake ones who don t understand neither the humility nor the universal altruism. In fact don t never forget that a theory evolves like all and if you dislike my theory in having encoded bad opinions about me, so try to discuss in transparence instead to make your comportments of vanitious like if you were special. For me I am frank, you fear maybe to answer and develop in front of me and transparence. I repeat you are not special, you have just some good ideas in details. Work your Vanity , be respectfull and try to answer about what I have explained. We are here on a platform relevant and transparent with a Community to learn, teach, discover, not to be on a platform to satisfy a small Community and memebers. If this planet is in this state, it is due to this parameter, the Vanity, greed also and the lack of universalis, so your free will must take into account this, because the Vanity changes the choices and opinions , do you agree?

        Lol let s go for a comprehensible politness inside a private small Community satisfying their own friendships , and I know that you don t like me both of you, on face book also, you Sabine because I have asked you to give maths about a good idea of you and a friend, a girl arrives and makes a hormonal comportment and after I have answered , because this girl had testoterones, so I was adapted to her. I know that the women must be strong inside this Community but in these conditions it is odd, You have blocked me to protect your friend and you beleive also that you are maybe special ? and you Mr Durham you don t support neither me nor my thewory because we have discussed many years ago here on this platform and so you have encoded bad things about me and now you cannot change your opinions about me both of you, this Vanity is a real global problem, because even now if my theory has evolved and is relevant, you don t accept neither me nor my works, it shows that your Vanity is stronger than your humility recognising the relevances, for me you are neitehr good teachers, nor thinkers altruist and universal, you just want to be recognised in trying to be celebrities , but I am frank, you are not Einstein, Planck, Newton,Heisenberg, Feynmann, Lorentz, Galilei, Godel,Maxwell,Schrodinger... you are just members of a small Community trying to be revolutionary, but no, sorry , I know that my Words can irritate you but be sure, work your Vanity and don t be angry and try to discuss , do you fear of Me or what , do you fear to discuss in transparence? me I want well but there are limits, I never begin these kind of discussions and you know both of you why I speak like that, now if you are real universal thinkers able to share ideas in transparence and go deeper , show me your real heart and relevance. And don t complaint on FQXi , we are I repeat on a transparent platform where the strategies of discriminations and silence don t exist,so be transparent without fear and respectfull if it is possible of course. Never underestimate a general work and the evolution of people, never.

        You know, what I tell is simple, instead to improve the sharing of ideas and this evolution, so you decrease it in having these kind of vanitious comportments simply, it is sad because now due to this, you cannot change your opinions and choices and discuss in transparence because this Vanity eats you and this anger against me. What I tell is true and you know it, and now in logic you have 3 comportments, the silence like if you were wise and more intelleigent but it is just your choice, not a truth, or you can compete and try to give me a lesson just due to this Vanity still and competition of intelliegnce or you can be humble and tell me , steve you exagerate there, we have nothing agianst you and we know the generality of this universe, the humility and this universalism and we are civilised and can discuss about things without fear, you see ? it is Always a question of psychology, but when we speak about this free will or the comprehensibility, so let s admit that this human psychology is non deterministic about many choices of comportments. I Think that you are better than these vanitious conmportments and that you can evolve and be deterministic , it is your choice now, show me who you are really, we are not in a game of vanitious competition but we search answers to this universe and its main unknowns and the complementarity is Always the best choice to reach relevant innovative results, I d like to know your general universal philosophy , don t fear to discuss, and show me what are these foundamental objects also for you, it d be easier to go deeper.

        Me personally I have nothing against nobody, I just Always discuss in respecting at the begining the people, I am not perfect and I know that in the past I was rude sometimes on FQXi, I was not well I have lost all my familly more other serious problems, but I have evolved and I am more quiet and civilised. I never make a kind of competition or a fight, but I can adapt me quickly in front of vanitious persuded and we know all that inside our Community it is the most vanitious Community in theoretical physics, but I am a nice guy netheir better than my fellowman nor more skilling, we are all equals after all. Be real universalists and be relevant in physics, it is just this that I want to explain you. We learn all Days and we share ideas to explain our unknowns for a better world. I insist about this Vanity destroying all on this Earth and Dividing, it is sad.We are not on this Earth for this, we are here on Earth to optimise what we can optimise with the deterministic Tools that we have around us with sciences and consciousness simply.

        And still a small thing to tell, you Mr Durham I saw on Facebook that you have put a Picture for your profil, RESIST, well are you a real relevant rebel of is it just to try to be what you are not ? because I have created a group on face book and here also to discuss about global rational solutions for this planet and I beleive strongly that the sciences Community, a part must take its responsabilities to convice this UN, so if your Vanity and anger against me are not too much important and that you want to improve this planet, so don t hesitate to give your ideas on this group, Global collaboration because we must act with sciences and consciousness, sometimes the personal opinions and Vanity are not important but the fact to change what we can yes. You Mrs Hossenfelder I have seen in the past that you have created a song with a Little bit of rebel in the clothes , I play guitar and piano and I love the rock, blues and others, I write poems and pieces of theater, so come also in this group and show us your rebel ideas agianst the stupidities of this global system that we can improve. Sometimes we must be frank and forget I repeat this Vanity, show me what you have in the stomach , after all to be or not to be, I am not arrogant, I just adapt me to past comportments. But we can be friends if you can work like I said this Vanity and false opinions about me, me I am a nice guy , seeing spheres everywhere I can understand that it irritates lol but I am a nice guy able to be cool , logic, respectfull, rational, ...and able to make a difference between proved laws, axions, equations or assumptions, I never affirm assumptions, I just discuss.

        Lol, don t worry , don t be troubled, Like I said I am a nice guy, I just catalyse you in psychology to know more about you, I beleive that you could be relevant in sharing ideas on the group in forum, ultimate reality, global collaboration, I search skilling thinkers able to create global deterministic solutions, after all it is important to change this planet, I beleive that you can fight this Vanity and accept to follow this group , In all case, more we are , more we shall success to convice this UN, I am a cool guy, a Little crazy :) but nice , be sure , too nice even tell me my friends, after all we are all linked on this sphere Earth, humans no? let s have a free will, universal and altruist without Vanity and let s act for this planet,the consciousness and the intelligence after all are Tools , what are we if we don t act, optimise, improve what we can improve . The individualism, this Vanity, this competition, the materialism, the celebrity, it is nothing after all generally speaking , isn t it ? you can do it , you can fight this Vanity and change your choices and opinions, it is not easy I know but it is possible and comprehensible :)

        Dear Ian,

        I am very glad that you were able to submit an essay to this contest.

        I was delighted to read it and, as expected, it was interesting and thought-provoking, which I think are the two most important qualities.

        That being said, you can correctly infer that it has me thinking, which means I have a lengthy response.

        In the essay, you focus on the topic of questions, which is rather dear to my heart. It is, interestingly, the reason that I got into quantum foundations in the first place. When I was at NASA Ames, I was interested in designing intelligent instruments so that our probes could be more autonomous and function more effectively at greater distances from Earth, such as Jupiter and Saturn (which have round-trip light travel times of anywhere from something like 2 to 4 hours). Being expert in Bayesian data analysis, and familiar with the various foundations and derivations of probability theory, I wondered if there was some way to consistently quantify the relevance of questions, so that our machines could compute with questions and thus decide which experiments were most relevant to the mission. This was a way of automating experimental design.

        You won't be surprised to learn that you can derive a calculus for relevancy by considering the underlying symmetries among questions. And, it was while discussing this over dinner, that I casually mentioned to Philip Goyal that we ought to be able to derive the Feynman rules similarly. As you know, we succeeded at that.

        Back to questions.

        In my work, I settled on defining questions in the way suggested by Richard T. Cox (1974) where a question is defined as the set of all statements that answer it. Read that previous sentence several times until you understand it, as this idea is critical to much of the commentary that follows. In terms of lattices, questions are then downsets of logical statements on the Boolean statement lattice (if that helps).

        Since questions are sets of statements, set union and set intersection result in a logical OR and AND for questions. However, one can show that there is no negation, so that algebra is NOT Boolean. (Sadly, Cox got this wrong, despite the fact that he had published a proof that the algeba could not be Boolean. He was just TOO familiar with Boolean logic.) I was able to show that, based on Cox's definition of a question, the resulting algebra is the Free Distributive Algebra. There is an OR and AND operation, but no negation (https://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0403089).

        The symmetries of this algebra result in a quantification (think, measure), which I called relevance, which has a Sum Rule and a Product Rule, and a Bayes theorem. Relating this relevance to the probabilities of the statements that define the question results in relevances being entropy (https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20040081076.pdf). Beware there are a few conceptual mistakes in this paper, since the question algebra is kind of upside-down from what you would expect thinking Boolean. These are most corrected in (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/15-Valuations-on-Lattices-%3A-Fuzzification-and-its-Knuth/a92e2780f218dc1b177f5f6778c42162465fad58). I am now working on an updated paper that fixed these problems.

        Whew! That is a lot of background, and this is now more of an essay than it is a commentary!

        You really get into questions when you discuss Comprehensibility.

        You note that the answer to "What is the color of my hair?" will never be "narrow" or "dog". Logically, it couldn't be, because none of those answers would be members of the set that define the question, nor would they, by themselves, imply any statements that answer that question. But you are not as interested in the underlying logical, as you are the physicality as in the outcome of an experiment.

        This is where your essay relates more to the relevance of experiments (which I would call experimental questions) to the issue that you want to resolve. An experiment that could result in an answer "narrow" or "dog" would have a very low relevance to the issue "What color is my hair?" And you would be foolish to perform such an experiment, and certainly would not expect the experimental result to be relevant to the question. For this reason, I would not say that experimental tests do not tend to remain within the physical context because of a principle. Instead, I would say that the experiments are selected, or rather, designed, so that their results are expected to be most relevant to the issue to be resolved. This is designed to work.

        When discussing Comprehensibility, you say "By simply asking a question, we immediately establish a context which limits the scope of the inquiry." This is exactly right! I would turn that around and be more pragmatic saying, "the context, or the scope of the question, defines the question."

        There were also many side points that you made which resonated with me.

        At one point you discuss computing the digits of pi and how one might decide how accurate a certain computation was. This is an interesting question, especially since you discuss computations in different number bases. I wondered if you were aware that in base-16, the Nth digit of pi can be computed independently from the others. there exists a formula, called the Bailey-Borwein-Plouffe (BBP) formula, which can be used in base-16 to compute the nth digit of pi independent of the other digits (Bailey, Borwein, and Plouffe, 1997). In base-16, the digits of pi are absolutely predictable. (Perhaps the lesson is that we should be working in base-16 rather than a base system determined by the number of digits possessed by the common ancestor to the modern tetrapods.)

        I like your example of calculating 1/10 exactly on a computer. I have used this as a demonstration on Computational Physics that computers do indeed make errors and that (physicist) programmers need to be aware of how those errors happen and propagate.

        I also liked your comment that "anyone who has spent any time in the laboratory will attest to the fact that the real world is far messier than theory would have us believe". I think of this fact every time that I see Stern-Gerlach experiments described in theory papers. There are always two neatly separated beams of sliver ions... yeah, right!!! I took an experimental course on quantum photonics last year so that I could incorporate those experiments into our Advanced Physics Lab course. It was a joy to do those experiments myself: delayed choice, Bell inequality, etc. It was also astonishing to see that some of what theorists say happens in an experiment really doesn't. It made me appreciate that one problem with theoretical QM is that the theorists thought experiments are often just wrong. QM theorists should really do QM experiments to build up an intuition because some of the intuition we have been taught is simply wrong. But that is another commentary altogether!

        Your comment about John Wheeler's stance that the answers to binary questions were the basis of all that exists is interesting in this context. I need to give this some careful thought. But at first sight I feel that this may be a truism in that questions are sets of statements. So what Wheeler is saying could be rephrased as saying that the statements that we consider as possibilities form the basis of our knowledge of what exists. My response to such a rephrasing, "Well, I should hope so! Otherwise, you have missed something!"

        Further along in that paragraph, you mention that some of physics might be unknowable. This is Shcumacher and Westmoreland's Information Isolation. We can't measure quantum phase, only phase differences. Yes! My thought about this is that the phase does not matter as much as the phase difference. Again, a matter for more careful thought!

        Later you talk about truth and non-commuting observables. However, I think of these observables as incommensurate descriptions (think the FT). If two descriptions are incommensurate, then you cannot expect to use both descriptions simultaneously. How relevant is this to Godel? I am not sure. Again, some careful thought is called for. But it might come down to it not being appropriate to assign truth values to descriptions.

        Thank you again, for an impressive and thought-provoking essay. I think that re-reading your essay with the ideas of question-statement duality in mind, would be helpful. There is much to ponder here!

        Thank you!!!

        Kevin

        PS Sorry to respond to your essay with an equally long essay!

          Hi Ian.

          I enjoyed this.

          Your conclusion is remarkably similar to mine, though you get there through a different route.

          Couple of questions/comments:

          You write that "Other aspects might be unknowable because the universe's fundamental fabric is such that no machine can be constructed to produce a correct truth value for some truth-conditional statements."

          This seems to imply some realm of "things in themselves" (independent of context/questions/etc). I doubt Wheeler would have thought that, being influenced by Bohr and all. "It from Bit" also means "No ifs if no Bits".

          You also write: ""Yet it is wrong to say that there was any change in the underlying physics between then and now. What changed was our knowledge of that physics, i.e. we increased our information."

          Well now: given what you say, the fact that contexts have changed, so that the kinds of questions we put have changed (on which we must agree to generate objectivity), you might say that the physics has changed too as a result of that. In Eddingtonian terms, the "Physical Universe" changes between then and now.

          Best

          Dean

            When this whole Covid-19 thing is over, I need to drive out to Albany again and have a beer with you. Thank you for the great comments. I need to know more about some of your Boolean stuff.

            Thanks for the comments, Dean. And that's rather sneaky of you to pull out Eddington as a counter-argument! ;-) Seriously, though, you're absolutely right that you could interpret his "physical universe" definition in that manner. I guess I am simply showing my admitted bias towards an objective reality (and I suppose I am doing the same thing in my implication of a realm of "things in themselves").

            On the other hand, it's useful to note that really the physics itself *didn't* change. Newton's laws are as true now as they were then. Engineers use them every day to build machines and buildings and all sorts of things. What Einstein found was that their realm of applicability was limited or, rather, they were a limiting case of a more general theory (and there's an argument that could be made that they can even be generalized anyway). What changed was our understanding of the variables involved (in this case, time).

            Thanks for your comments Syed! I think you make a good point. It is possible to interpret what I say as formally anchoring science logic and mathematics, though I think it would be in a rather unusual way. It might be more correct to say that logic and mathematics are anchored to physics, rather than the other way around. Just a thought. Anyway, thanks again for the comments!