Can We Feel What It’s Like to Be Quantum?

Robert McEachern

"The problem is, quantum mechanics has some notoriously fuzzy features, like an uncertainty principle that prevents you knowing everything about a particle at the same time. These seem to put it at odds with our everyday experience of a concrete, definite reality."

It is Shannon's Capacity, not small physical size, that "prevents you knowing everything about a particle at the same time", even in "our everyday experience". The real problem is, that in "our everyday experience", you will rarely ever encounter any objects with a severely limited Shannon Capacity - until you deliberately construct them; just as you will rarely encounter highly unstable isotopes, until after you construct them.

It is easy to show that the uncertainty principle corresponds precisely to a Shannon Capacity of exactly one bit of "information", corresponding to either an "up" or a "down" observable state.

If you take the trouble to actually construct, and then attempt to "observe", classical entities, that manifest only one single bit of Shannon's "information" (rather different than any physicist's conception of "information"), you will find that those entities behave just like quantum particles.

Rob McEachern

Robert McEachern

Here are some further insights into the nature of Shannon's "Information" and hence, into the nature of the problems within, fundamental physics.

Rob McEachern

[deleted]

Did the experiments support Penrose OR which does not predict radiation?

How did the results fail to support Penrose-Hameroff Orch OR?

Seriously.

As an advocate of Orch OR I'd be happy to try and defend it against criticism.

But I dont see any actual criticism.

Thanks

Stuart Hameroff

hameroff@u.arizona.edu

Steve Dufourny

Hi Professor Hameroff, we have discussed on the post of Catalina Curceanu about your works to Penrose and you, you are relevant , thanks for sharing

here is the dicussion

Catalina Curceanu

Stefano Machera infatti - capito bene

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera Hello . Penrose and Hameroff have good ideas with the protoconsciousness and the microtubules and the collapsing ,the gravity and others. That said we have many limitations about this consciousness and we arrive at deep philosophical questions. We have all our interpretations but these limitations are a reality unfortunally. The intelligence is different than this consciousness .The free will too is relevant to analyse . The main problems are these limoitations philosophical about the origin of the universe too, and unfortunally we don t know the foundamental mathematical and physical objects, we just analyse the emergent properties of our standard model. In resume , nobody has really a general model to explain this consciousness.

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Steve Dufourny

we have the same problem for the quantum gravitation, this weakest quantum force cannot be renormalised with our actual general philosophy of this GR and in considering nthe gravitons like the quanta of gravitational waves, we must in logic superimpose deepest scalar fields , I have a model to explain and quantify it with the scalar field of the DE possessing the main codes encoding the cold dark matter and the photons, I have created for this the spherical geometrical topological algebras and I have considered like foundamental objects the 3D spheres in a superfluidity, that acts , I will publish this year

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Stefano Machera

Steve Dufourny , or, they might not need a "real" explanation, being just emergent properties of a fully deterministic biological substrate. Daniel Dennett's Consciousness Explained goes a long way in clarifying why we may be looking for something that simply is not there.

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera maybe indeed, we don t know still ,

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera you know , the problem is philosophical too, why we exist and from what. Must we consider a kind of god like einstein said ,a god of spinoza, must we consider a kind of mathematical accident and if yes, what is this infinite energy really and is it conscious, nobody can answer and affirm to know. A fact that said is that the best past and actual thinkers considered a kind of god of spinoza, it seems that we need a kind of coder and transfomer of this energy to create the reality.They were numerous, wilczek, penrose, einstein, planck, galilei, heisenberg, schrodinger, goedel, newton,and so more ,to think about a god .

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera in all case nobody it is sure can affrim to know the truth

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Stefano Machera

Steve Dufourny , I must confess that most of this falls under my personal version of Ockham's razor ?

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera lol indeed , razor or not that said these limitations are a reality unfortunally

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera so in resume we arrive at the same unknown , what is the origin of this biological substrate like result of evolution

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera could you tell me more, what is for you the origin of the universe, why you exist and from what. It is personal I know and it is due to our education, our psychology, our interpretations, our encodings, our environments and its interactions

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Steve Dufourny

Catalina Curceanu I am curious too to know your points of vue about all this ?that needs deeper explainations philosophical., the collapsing model and the gravity interpretation need to add a deep philosophy

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Steve Dufourny

personally I liked the works of Hameroff and Penrose and I believe strongly that we must superimpose these deeper scalar fields to really understand the mecanisms.If we consider only this GR and photons alone and the actual known fields, that cannot solve the problem.

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera , you know sometimes I tell me that it d be better to utilise this consciousness instead to try to explain it, we are a result of evolution and maybe it is a tool for this universe. I have created a forum on FQXi I have conviced them to... Voir plus

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Stefano Machera

Steve Dufourny , in a nutshell, I am a materialist. I don't believe there is a reason for the existence of the universe, let alone myself, and I expect to fully dissolve in unsentient matter in a few decades.

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera It is your choice, your free will, it is due to your education and encodings , we must always respect the choice of our fellowmen and be tolerant , when it is of course raisonable and in fact nobody knows the truth but don t forget what... Voir plus

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Steve Dufourny

Stefano Machera I d say even that it is not possible to ponder general innovative equations about the matter and energy without this parameter and it is more difficult to understand the transformations of the energies without this god of spinoza, but s... Voir plus

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Ulla Mattfolk

Penrose linked his gravitational collapse to uncertainty in space and time. He did the math for it. He thought an observer there doing a measurement, and though macroscopic superposition. This would be a natural link for consciousness too. Very hard to think something else doing the link.

Wien scientists have reached macroscopic superposition with fullerens, I think.

The question of what consciousness is is another question. But also there he seems to be on a good road, esp if we consider consciousness as 'living' charachter.

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Steve Dufourny

Ulla Mattfolk yep indeed , not easy all this puzzle due to these limitations , physical, mathematical,philosophical .......

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Ulla Mattfolk

I put this on the quantum biology wall. Catalina Curceanu has been a member there too. It seems this requires some brain bending before to get it right. Or maybe there are some errors to find somewhere?

To measure gravity as a radioactive decay as such sounds very odd, and 'too easy'. This decay should be far below the qubit scenario? At least if we follow Penrose. https://link.springer.com/.../10.1007%2Fs10701-013-9770-0...

Penrose argues that this ambiguity corresponds to the ambiguity of free falls determined by the ambiguity of local accelerations g = в€'в€‡О¦ where О¦ is Newton's potential. https://arxiv.org/pdf/2111.04604.pdf

The delta is then the curvature? Note that free fall is not a straight line here? In GR we often see it as such.

What this points to is our bad theoretical understanding so far. We readily mess between Newton and Einstein, even entanglement and wavefunctions, superpositions, like they would be the same. They are not, I think.

Here is an interesting paper from Diosi, using Newton and quantum measurement, he uses deBroglie wavelength as a tool. It is inverse

Steve Dufourny

The orchestrated objective reduction for me is very relevant and is one of the vbest model actually. The key is indeed at this quantum level. The neurons and microtubules like result of evolution so permit this consciousness and the free will can be indeed correlated.

I have a model due to my theory of spherisation , it is an optimisation evolution of the universal sphere or future sphere with quantum and cosmological 3D spheres to make simple. I consider so a superfluidity and 3 main systems , the photons, the cold dark matter and the dark energy and the series of this vacuum of the DE possess the main codes and encodes the photons and the cold dark matter to create the baryonic matter and our standard model. I have so considered deeper fields to our SM and that the scala fields of this DE was a key . Maybe this cons ciousness can be correlated with this reasoning and so implying that the gnereal relativity is not the only one piece of puzzle, I have considered this reasoning for the quantum gravitation too because it seems not renormalisable in considering these gravitons like quanta of these gravitational waves, the problem is philosophical too about the origin of the universe. I believe that a kind of god is a 0d a kind of infinite eternal consciousness and maybe there is something to consider about how interacts this thing with our pure 3D and these spheres if they are the foundamental objects.

So that becomes relevant to try to link the whole , these deeper paramaters, fields, particles superimposed to G ,c and h because probably this gravitation is essential and needs deeper parameters added.All this imply so quantum processing with the microtubules but in superimposing these deeper parameters , I have remarked that maybe we must consider this main scalar field of the DE antigravitational for the main informations and after we have the 3 known fields , the nuclear, the weak interaction, the electromagnetism more the higgs for the weak interaction but we can consider too the axions for the nuclear forces and after a field too for the electromagnetism adde and 2 for the quantum gravitation and one main chief orchestra for the DE , that implies to make simple 9 fields and 5 forces , and this main scalar field of the DE can be considered different in function of matters and probably fractalised.

I aksed me how to find these fields and new physics and how to experiment, maybe the bose eninstein condensate and weka interactions can answer because there are couplings but not easy to find the good roads and to formalise all this even if I have invencted the spherical geometrical topological algebras . I need help I believe , Regards

Steve Dufourny

You know Professor Hameroff I have remarked that philosophically speaking the majority consider the photons and the GR like the primary essence , and so that the fields of this GR and due to the matter energ equivalence of einstein is the origin of the standard model and the bayonic matter with oscillations and so they consider a kind of vacuum and harmonical oscillators to explain this reality but if the GR and these photons are not the only one piece of puzzle and that this cold dark matter and this DE must be added, all is different. I doubt really that this universe has only created photons you know and that a kind of god or a mathematical accident play with these fields and oscillations vibrations in 1D at this planck scale inside these photons and that all is under the main cosmic field in 1D of this GR. They consider so 2 E8 mainly to unify G c and h and reach or explain our deepest unknowns. Maybe the error is there , we trurn in round in a kind of philosophical prison.

Steve Dufourny

Professor Hameroff, I have asked to Catalina Curceanu like you asked if they have already results about the radiations to see if Penrose or Diosi is right . I hope like I told you that Pnerose and you are right about the main causes at this quantum level.That will permit so to go deeper about the orii n of this consciousness.

I have considered so in my model the scalar field of the DE possessing the main informations to create this reality and so this Vaccuum of the DE encodes so the photons and the cold dark matter to create this baryonic matter, that implies so deeper fields and a deeper logic than just this GR for our reality. That permits to explain the evolutiona nd complexifications of matter in considering so the mendeleev table , the chenistry and the biology. We know that we need to understand this evolutiona and the diversity of matters, the actual standard model does not permit it.

If this DE is the cause and that the photons and the cold dark matter encoded are just like fuels to permit this baryonic matter and its diversity , that becomes relevant even for the consciousness even if we have deep philosophical unknowns about the origin of the universe.

The main informations are in this vacuum of the DE in my model and it becomes relevant to even consider the consciousness there too .Now if a kind of god of spinoza , a kind of eternal infinite energy in 0D is a reality and that this thing is paradoxally everywhere and beyond this physicality, that can be considered too philosophically.

Steve Dufourny

Here is the results like pre proof of Catalina Curceanu , I have discussed with here and she has given me the paper ,

Steve Dufourny

All this is very interesting about the gravity-related dynamical wavefunction collapse, we arrive at a new era of researchs for this consciousness and it is fascinating.

The paper tells that unexpected discoveries in neurobiology

showing decisively that microtubules can maintain coherent tubulin quantum

states on scales required by Orch OR theory is important considering the deeper mechanism that I explained in my model. We need to find these fields and mechanisms at my humble opinion and for this we need to make experiments , several general correlated philosophies can be considered about the main informations. The strings, the points, the spheres, we don t know, the same for the philosophical origin of the universe, I beleive strongly that this GR alone and photons are not sufficient and that this gravitation need to supeimpose this cold DM and this DE and the scalar new fields are important.

Steve Dufourny

We see that all this needs to understand our deepest unknowns and mainly this quantum gravitation. I insist on the fact that we have maybe considered too much this GR and photons like the primary essence and we see quicly that there are problems of compatibility in trying to unify the QM and this GR. The problem is really philosophical about the cause of this QM in considering so that this GR and these photons oscillating create this reality.

If these photons are just a part of the problem and are just encoded in this space vacuum of the DE with the DM , so all is different, that does not change really our actual measurements about the quantum mechanics and the actual known properties, it is just that we must think beyond the box and consider deeper parameters.

This quantum gravitation so is just due the 3 systems merging together to create this quantum weakest force in having the main informations in this space vacuum, and so the photons and the cold DM are just fuels permitting the quantum properties. That just change a little bit the general philosophy and change too the special and general relativity because we must reconsider them in completing them.

So the HP model and the DP model can be improved in this line of reasoning in considering new fields of our standard model. It is important like philosophical difference , because the spacetime of this GR so is not the cause and and so the curvature of this spacetime too is not the cause , but the DE seems the cause .Maybe even that the only one thing massless are the partifles of this DE , and so after we reconsider the photons and the cold dark matter being fuels , and in fact a photons have more energy than mass and the cold dark matter it is the opposite, that becomes relevant when they are encoded in the spacevacuum to create the baryonic matter, and like I explained before, that permit to consider the mendelleev table, the chemistry and thebiology more the evolution and it is just a question of number of particles of photons and cold dark matter encoded in this vacuum of the DE , we cannot generalise the standard model in fact even , we can generalise of course a general idea but not when we consider this evolution aand the diversity of matters.

The scalar fields of the DE are facinating considering the theory of informations.

I know that it is difficult to change a general philosophy , and this GR and photons have really created a philosophical prison at my humble opinion, probably due to an euphory when Einsten has created his SR and GR. The matter and energy are not really the same and we have oddly interpreted it seems to me the mass energy equivalence, the problem seems there.

That implies that a kind of objective collapse is not really due to this GR , but just due to the 3 systems merging together to create this quantum mechanics and the deeper fields that I explained seem the key. The consciousness need the 3 systems free cosmologically and this evolution having permitted the biology and so our brians with the microtubules and kinesin proteins.

Steve Dufourny

it is a new physics and we need to know more, how they interact, how are the couplings, what are their fields, and probably there are partitions and the numbers, reals, complexs, imaginaries are important like the non commutativity and the broken symmetries.

furthermore these couplings are important and under the main scalar field of this DE and so that implies these qutrits considering the theory of informations generally speaking.

It seems that we must return at this old newtonian school and forget this GR simply to reach this QG.

You see well dear all that the majority are endoctrinated and consider that einstein is better for the interpretation of the gravitation being a curvature of the spacetime at high velocities, but what they forget is that all they are false if the photons is not massless and that the gravitons are not the quanta of gravitational waves and that the correlated philosophy about the origin of the universe is false. The only thing which seem massless maybe is the DE and is the main chief orchestra,

at gran sasso they try to find the answers but not easy due to these limitations philosophical and physical, the problem is how to experiment this quantum gravitation and the other fields too of this DE maybe , the answers seem indeed at this quantum level but not with our actual relativistic reasonings alone at my humble opinion.

Steve Dufourny

The point important at my humble opinion to understand this consciousness is to really extrapolate this general philosophy of origin of the universe and understand why we exist, why we are conscous. We are resulsts of evolution and this evolution has permitted to create the life and the complexification of this life. We know the mendeleev table,the chemistry, the biology, the neurosciences, this and that but we don t know why really at this quantum level. We know some properties of this quantum mechanics but not the main causes.

Why this diversity of the mendeleev table, why these atoms have been able to create all this diveristy of this chemistry, and this diversity of this biology. Why the O , C , H are able to create all these things in biology, the standard model cannot explain why and that is why we need a deeper philosophy and deeper informations. And this spacevacuum of the DE give us a road and permit to have deeper fields superimposed to this standard model and this general relativity.

Our actual problem mis really to consider these photons and this GR like the cause of all and with different partitions of these photons and their fields, oscillations, vibrations we try to complete this SM, but we see quicly that it lacks things to add .

The microtubules are a result of evolution for the biology and the neurons too but they don t explain really why we are conscious. They are emergent creations permitting mechanisms and it is there that we need to understand why these things have been created. The answers of course are at this quantum level but the problem is that we have many unknowns at this quantum level , we don t even know what is a really a particle and why these particles create all this , and for the philosophical origin the same we don t know what is this philosophical origin.

Many philosophical questions arrive in fact in our minds, so many unknowns giving many roads to interpret these unknowns. I repeat but this general relativity like the cause of all with these photons and their fields imply a kind of prison of thoughts . I don t understand in fact why the majority of thinkers consider only this road instead to try to add this cold dark matter, the DE and a deeper philosophy about the primary informations. That permits really to solve maybe this consciousness too , like the constant cosmological rpoblem, or the quantum gravitation or even the gap mass and the gluons problem. We see well that it lacks things to add and superimpose, so why the thinkers don t do it, why they are so endoctrinated by the works of einstein. Is it a problem of faith due to religions considering the light like god , I don t know but I find this odd in fact . We have these free paramaters cosmological, the DM and DE permitting to solve and they don t utilise them. They prefer to evitate them . If these parameters exist really at this consological scales like the photons, they are like the photons in our quantum mechanics , they are tools too for the universe to create this reality.

[deleted]

"[H]ow consciousness plays with quantum mechanics, our theory of the very small."

I cannot help thinking of Plotinus: "Vision is not constrained by the bournes of magnitude."

For the sake of argument, let us allow that the locus of self-awareness presents as a singularity coalescent with emptiness. Prior to self-reflection and the reification of the perceived, the unity of primordial knowledge informs as thusly.

By virtue of its coalescence the object of perception is necessarily subject to interpretation. Reification serves to individuate the postulated constituents thereby fostering the presumption of a singularity of infinite complexity: a cosmos or deity, for example. Presumptions of complexity can only obtain subsequent to reification. The apparent difference between the one and the many is engendered: self-reflection and the reification of the perceived; so too, issues of scale.

First-order dualism presents as a singularity: the object of perception known simultaneously prior and subsequent to reification (think wave/particle dualism). The simultaneity derives from the fact that reification cannot imbue the object with a quality it does not otherwise enjoy. Perhaps wave collapse is an artifact of self-reflection and the reification of the perceived.

Prior to self-reflection and the reification of the perceived the object of inquiry cannot embody specificity. The conscious act of self-reflection and the reification of the perceived (the locus of self-awareness) may be interpreted as wave collapse.

Duration, like the concomitant chimera of causality, is an artifact of reification. Issues regarding the nature of "the Now" become irrelevant: all science can know is "the Now". Likewise, issues regarding "free will" become moot for reification cannot imbue the locus of self-awareness with a quality it does not otherwise enjoy.

Significantly, all science (and its ally in natural philosophy) can know is the singularity of primordial knowledge: the coalescence of the object of perception and emptiness. Any inquiry into the nature of the object of perception can only know that which illumines its verisimilitude. Unconcealed (as Parmenides avers), primordial knowledge imposes itself on the artificial invariant as any permutation of 'between'. Symmetry, like time, is an artifact of reification.

Georgina Woodward

'verisimilitude' is a nice word.