• Blog

  • Quantum Physics and the End of Reality by Sabine Hossenfelder and Carlo Rovelli

Georgina Woodward

determining their absolute , unmeasured trajectories through absolute space

That is irrelevant to a Bell test. In a Bell test, the two basketballs would always be fired along the exact same, known trajectory, in exactly opposite directions.

The whole point of the tests, is that the two Basketballs are also spinning - in exactly opposite, but unknown, random orientations. Your job, is to determine the unknown orientation of each ball's spin axis (either "up" or "down"), in 3 dimensional space, and then correlate one ball's orientation measurements, against the other ball's orientation measurements. The whole point of the test, is to demonstrate that "quantum" objects, will not exhibit the same correlations, that basketballs do.

My point is: Basketballs are not the only type of "classical" objects existing in our universe. Coins also exist. And if some coins are "manufactured" in accordance with Shannon's peculiar recipe, for one single-bit-of-information, then unlike basketballs, those coins will exhibit the same correlations as "quantum" objects.

      Robert McEachern
      Sorry again for being ambiguous and unclear. I wasn't trying to replicate a Bell test.
      I've set up the thought experiment so trajectory, relative to position of detectors, can be adjusted. The particle source could be fixed and the detectors moved instead ,to get the same effect. I think I need to show that even though the outcome states are only manifest upon production they are nevertheless correlated.
      A certain gentleman always wears odd socks ,one blue one red. Gifting him such a pairing: if the first parcel arrives with red sock inside, the parcel containing the other must have a blue sock inside. The socks are existing things. Like cakes from the same batch and recipe exist, a caterpillar grown fat and leaf exist, similar existing injuries from same dangerous existing obstacle .We could instead send a parcel containing a card saying basketball score for device 1. The other will be the score for device 2. Even not yet manifest they are necessarily correlated. But not entangled. Neither score knows anything of the other, before or after manifestation, and is not choosing anything.

          Georgina Woodward

          I wasn't trying to replicate a Bell test.

          And therein lies the problem. If you do not replicate the effect, observed in a Bell test, then you almost certainly have not replicated (or identified) the cause for the effect, either.

          A certain gentleman always wears odd socks ,one blue one red...

          Physicists already understand why Bertlmann’s socks "are necessarily correlated. But not entangled." Hence, they have no further interest in such experiments. But the correlations observed in Bell tests are different. The only question of any on-going interest is, why? What causes "quantum" objects to correlate in ways, that are totally unlike Bertlmann’s socks, or any other previously known, "classical" system?

          And my answer is:
          "it is easy to demonstrate that the cause of "Bell correlations" is entirely due to the "non-identicality" of the entangled pairs, rather than any supposed "non-locality" of the real world, in which those entangled pairs actually exist."

              Robert McEachern
              The socks, and other examples of correlation given there, already exist. We could call it embodied correlation. The basket scores don't exist, yet will be correlated, because of how the particle pairs are produced, when they are manifest. In that way they are unlike the other examples of correlation.
              There is never 'entanglement' whatever the scale.

                  Georgina Woodward

                  they are unlike the other examples of correlation

                  And precisely because they indeed are, unlike "quantum correlations", they are of no interest, to anyone primarily concerned with identifying, what could ever cause effects that are like, rather than unlike, "quantum correlations".

                      Robert McEachern
                      Surfaces like coin face s pre exist measurement . They aren't produced at measurement, The basket scores are unlike the other correlation examples given; socks, caterpillar and leaf, injuries'/obstacle but like quantum correlation, in that newly generated regard.

                          Robert McEachern
                          Some things are as they are found to be, because of what exists, such as the chemical pigment of the socks, that make it appear red, 'looking at it a different way does not alter the pigment. likewise whether a coin is damaged or not, looking this or that way is not causing a change to the material. Whether a basket is scored does matter how the detector (basket) is oriented. I haven't made it clear in the preceding discussion.

                          Correlation that is within classical expectation may be uninteresting to quantum physicist, as you say. It is the extra correlation that's interesting to them. I'm not convinced the extra is correlation at all, but co-occurrence. Happening together but not because of a factor in common in pair formation , or influence of one upon the other. Or choice by the particles. Rotating a polarize affects how the ‘light’ interacts with the polarize. More ‘light’ passing through will give more detection. Therefore more co occurrence of detection. Different orientation of detector should have different names for positive detection. Emphasizing that all positive detentions, from same orientation tests and different orientation. are not equivalent. This is showing the results of specific kinds of interaction with specialized materials or apparatus occur not general behaviour of sub atomic particles. It is more likely a consequence the specific circumstance of interaction than the particles choosing co-occurrence of particular outcomes.

                              Georgina Woodward

                              It is the extra correlation that's interesting... Happening together but not because of a factor in common in pair formation...

                              The "extra correlation" happens, precisely because of what is not "in common in pair formation."
                              Which would be a logical impossibility, if the pair actually were identical. But the assumption that they are actually identical (AKA indistinguishable), turns out to be false. That is the problem, that has befuddled physicists, for an entire century. The pair are similar (fraternal twins), but not identical (identical twins). A slightly different pattern of noise, on the surface of a pair of "blurry" coins, is all that it takes, to create the "extra correlation."

                                  Robert McEachern
                                  Misidentification, allowing more photons to pass that should be stopped or more to be stopped that should pass ,skewing the results away from random chance is a possibility. but why assume it is due to a feature of the particles themselves. why not due to the variable transmittance of polarizers as they are rotated. The extra correlation actually being co-occurrence rather than correlation .

                                      Georgina Woodward

                                      why assume it is due to a feature of the particles themselves.

                                      There is no assumption! That is the entire point, that you consistently fail to understand; In the purely classical experiment, the coins were constructed to have exactly that property - because that is what a bit of information is - a packet of noise, riding upon a carrier.

                                      Just think of what determines the value of any actual coin - it is not the physical "stuff", the metal substance; the metal is just the carrier of the "information" being used to determine the coin's value - but the actual information itself, is encoded, entirely within the markings on the surface - the "noise."

                                      Shannon's greatest discovery, was the realization, that in order to be reliably detected - for any completely deterministic behavior to ever emerge, in a noisy environment - the "information" must be encoded to have, the statistical properties of white noise! In other words, instead of a picture of an actual "Head" and "Tail", you must use two different patterns of white noise, to represent/encode the "Head" and Tail" - because the noise-like encodings can be much more reliably detected, than any actual picture!

                                      Hence, your "extra correlation" arises entirely from the fact that the auto-correlation of noise-like sequences, generate more reliably detectable, large peaks, than any other known type of encoding. Which is why "Mother Nature" appears to use them, to generate deterministic behaviors; and She generates them, out of the very Chaos itself - the noise!

                                      And it can be amazingly easy for deterministic behaviors to emerge from the Chaos; rather than wasting time searching for it; just create it yourself! (“You” being Mother Nature), out of pure noise!

                                        This explains well
                                        Your [Daily Equation #21: Bell's Theorem and the Non-locality of the Universe
                                        ](https://)youtu.be/UZiwtfrisTQ

                                        Untested there is no definite spin state as the 'seen this way' relative perspective has not been decided and applied. the particle is spinning though in absolute space as a part of the singular pattern of existence ,that does not have a singular viewpoint. So it is not true that it has a singular (relative) spin in 3d , giving immediate (spooky) correlation. Instead, the same relative perspective is instantly applied to both, when choice of same measurement orientation is chosen. We need not assume that having pre existing states is the macroscopic norm. We are just accustomed to a having a relative perspective of objects or imagining a relative perspective applying to a physics scenario. We assume 3d space is where things happen but it is actually absolute space as any possible viewpoint could be applied giving a different but equally valid state of the observed/measured or even many seemingly contradictory states-each being valid for their own context. This is not many worlds but many possible perspectives. Prior to choosing a singular perspective to apply.

                                          Georgina Woodward
                                          Relativity applies, There really is not one correct or true state description obtainable but the state description obtained for an object or particle depends upon the viewpoint used to obtain it, the 'seen like this; proviso that affixes the outcome to the context in which it was obtained. it is a relative product that can be imagined in 3d product space but that is not where the particle, an actual physical entity exists.
                                          The 3 orientations of detector, when used can be thought of as 3 viewpoints. Each gives an outcome that describes the binary feature investigated as it (most closely) seems from that way.
                                          of 'looking.

                                              Georgina Woodward
                                              I mean by relativity applies "defined relative to a frame of reference ['seen this way'] and that space and time are relative rather than absolute concepts:" dictionary.com My addition in brackets.

                                                  Georgina Woodward
                                                  The space and time of the product is relative, pertaining to the viewpoint and time reckoning of the observer. The existence of the observed or 'measured' is absolute. Time of existence (observer independent) is sequential and uni-temporal.
                                                  Interaction of the apparatus with the measured entity, by using apparatus such as Stern Gerlach apparatus or polarizers is unavoidable. Leading to alteration of the absolute condition of the particle in its absolute environment from what it was prior to interaction. For this reason retesting the particles with an orientation of detector used prior to last different orientation does not reproduce the same response as the last time that orientation was used.

                                                      Georgina Woodward
                                                      To just think of different polarizer or Stern Gerlach apparatus angles as different viewpoints is not enough, the term 'viewpoint' does not really capture what is going on. Its more like 'conclusion' based on received output. The apparatus isn't answering questions about the input. It is producing an output that is different from it. The question; what do we get out when ;looked at; this way?. is more appropriate.. A macroscopic analogy is using 3 different light filters to look at white 'light 'input received by camera detectors beyond the filters. The cameras do not describe the white light input only the different colours of output light . All are correct in their conclusion according to their particular filter used.
                                                      Polarizers and Stern Gerlach apparatus can be thought of as very simple reality interfaces. Taking in the input and changing it to a different output. So we are looking at the product not the raw input.

                                                        i think writing is wasting everybody's time,start doing drawings instead

                                                        or do a mix , only writing is a pattern ineffective wash of surfaces,

                                                        there is a discovery proving that where seeing a shape, the brain contains the exacly that shape, maybe this discvovery is called placed celsin hipocampal neurons,
                                                        i plan, in principle, to invent and use my own visual language ,maybe even to try to uninstall/ forgett already learned verbal language, not with evybody ,with few close people i would trust and design the experience , at this point im suicidal i dont have such people, there are huge interest around communication media control of course but somebody has to start doing visual communication experimentation only , if this is not already practiced in secret by some big data organisations ( honestly i doubt that but stil, this is a pure initiative that drive the progress forward. if i cannot chose persnaly who those people are , logical conclusion is that there is no freedom ,and suicide kdjfsahodijfgsdjfgljkfhaso;ilkfhzkdijfghawleiufh;soi ,

                                                        everybody should start doing it(the invention of visual intaraction language) by itself and not be intimidated by empires corporation or governments laws or wathever.

                                                          @"Georgina Woodward"#p16729
                                                          Measurement is not the correct term, the polarizers and the Stern Gerlach apparatus , it is obtaining a result so conclusion is sort of appropriate as conclusions come after results but modifying intervention is closer in meaning.

                                                          22 days later

                                                          As mobile organisms, this sentient interface between body and world functions as a sequence of perceptions, in order to navigate, so our concept of time is of the point of the present moving past to future. Physics codifies it as measures of duration.