Quantum Physics and the End of Reality by Sabine Hossenfelder and Carlo Rovelli

Georgina Woodward

Certainly perception is different from existence. Perception is generated via our senses, from interaction with existence, including from experimental results, and brain processing. Existence exists without perception. Correct categorization is important. consciousness is not necessary for making a measurement but the relation of the measured and apparatus is important. Our consciousness does play a part in our representation of existence. The orientation of the dimensions assigned depends on our individual relations to the sensory stimuli emitted from sources that have or had existence. The orientation of the dimensions we attribute are not intrinsic to the source objects. The space in which the objects are seen is part of the generated perception. I've been reading about dmt experiences. The generated spaces are very different. They can be more fractal like, involve folding of spaces, living moving geometry sometimes.

Georgina Woodward

Time can also be distorted on a dmt trip. This shows normal perception is giving us a particular representation of space and time. But not necessarily the only possible....The normal seen representation of objects is not the same as existence. It (the seen) is only made of partial surface representation usually, partial truth. Whereas existence is all surfaces and interior.

The representations can be constructed using expectation as well as sensory input....Existence is not generated by the mind. It can be shaped by work with the body ( with or without tools) carrying out mental plans.

The representations are linked to what the brain/mind considers relevant facts and memories and perhaps also emotional responses. Which gives understanding of what has been generated-i.e. perception. Existence without perception of it does not have such linkages.

Steve Dufourny

The spontaneous symmetry breakings are so important at all scales and for this we need causes and informations, that is why my intuitive equation and these deeper scalar fields and a deeper logic about the main codes and informations in this vacuum become a key to understand these symmetry breakings.It is like the potential energy and the main informations permit kinetic complementarities for these symmetries breakings. That is why the chirality becomes essential about a kind of logic universal about these symetries broken. These scalar massless fields of this space vacuum of the DE possessing the main codes permit the symmetries but also these assymetries and chiralities, that is why we have all this diversity in chemistry and biology and that they evolve furthermore , our error is to consider only actual general symmetries for our quantum mechanics and it is mainly due to limitations in our observations and also mainly due to limitations in knowledges about the QM,but the broken symmetries and the chiralities are essential and these scalar fields seem the key. The Y is my intutitive equation becomes the key and is fascinating possessing the main informations, we cannot even generalise Y like a constant because it depends of whatt we analyse and consider like matter. The chirality and the broken symmetries and the main informations of these sclar fields permit to explain the diversity of the universe and the evolution.

Steve Dufourny

All this is very important about the lagrangians and my equation where this space vaccuum of the DE permits these broken symmetries. It is mainly due to these main informations of these nscalar masslees fields antigravitational. This Y in my equation is a new theory about the informations and seems the key of broken symmetries and the aim is to understand these perturbative parameters breaking these symmetries of common lagrangians.

For example the Higgs mechanism is mainly about these broken symmetries and mai nly due to these massless fields of this DE and the massive added scalar fields of the DM permitting this mass. It is not about the mass energy equivalence of einstein with specific fields of the vacuum of this GR , it is totally different.

There are many different broen symmetries and that can be ranked with my intuitive equation about the lagra ngians and the referentials. That implies even interesting roads about the vaccuums and their interpretations.

The actual known forces of the standard model have all the potential of symmetries broken and the higgs mechanism is relevant for this with the reasoning that I explained. Now for the nuclear forces , the quarks, gluons, the same kind of mechanism than for the higgs mechanism for the W and Z bosons can be considered in considering these scalar fields of the DE and DM, that implies that the DM is encoded in the scalar massless fields antigravitationa permitting these broken symmetries and explain the missing mass .The vacuum state actually considered can add this vacuum of the DE for better understanding like a bridge of energy, like a bridge between the electromagnetism, the relativity, thye gravitation and the anti gravitation. It is there that the new theory of informations antigravitational and primary become relevant possessing the main codes for these broken main general symmetries...

Steve Dufourny

it is this the secret , the broken symmetries and chiralities for the emergent lifes .....the main interest is to understand why these chiralities and stabel homochiralities

the DNA or the amino acids are not chiral, they are homochirals and it is this also the basis of the life . I have studied the works of Oparine and Pasteur and the origin of amino acids is important, the big questions is why this homochirality , there are experiments to do with the light, the electromagnetism and BEC for these scalar fields not known. They are going to chaqnge the molecules, the light does not seem to be the only one parameter changing the left and right systems. That becomes relevant about the origin of the life, is it terrestrial or extraterrestrial if it is created in the space with the electromagnetism more these scalar massless and massive fields, the big questions is there.

Why homochiralities, chiralities , broken symmetries. It is mainly the origin of the life and the emergent homochiralities which become intriguing and fascinating. We arrive about the storage of informations and the real question is what are the informations permitting this, is it only this light and electromagnetism or deeper informations, I believe that the light alone and this GR cannot answer and that is why we need these deeper informations and scalar massless fields of the DE and massive scalar fields of the DE. It is there that the symmetries breakings are relevant for the homochiralities. The biotic or abiotic theories need to add deeper parameters and even our actual standard model cannot answer and even the thermodynamics, because these main informations are the cause and they are not known.

Steve Dufourny

We arrive at an important point considering the evolution and the adaptation , my theory is mainly about the evolution and changes, the theory of spherisation it is this, the evolution optimisation of this universe with 3D spheres mainly like foundamental objects. So the big question is why these adaptations and homochiralities , it is not a darwinistic competition only which implies this, but deeper parameters of evolution, there are like choices made for the chiralities and it is the secret to find.It is not like a chance , but about informations stored.

Steve Dufourny

Now if we consider the atoms and the standard model and the dirac particles having an antiparticle, it becomes relevant about the chiralities and the changes.We arrive at the same reasoning fo the helicity, the spin and chirality of particles.Some bosons are massless like the photons or the gluons, they are supposed massless but a kind of mechanism like the higgs can be considered due to the massless scalar fields of the DE and the massive scalar fields of the CDM , that is why the mass appears for the gluons like the higgs mechanism but with a d ifferent mechanism and fields. An other question that we can search is the fact that the massless photons maybe is an error and so we arrive at new philosophical reasonings. That is why the helicity and chirality of bosons and fermions can be better understood and mainly if these scalar deeper fields are added. See that in my equation an important point is that Y is antigravitational and not constant , permitting this evolution because possessing the main informations. These scalar massless fields are the main chief orchestra and permit the diversity of atoms and the specific spin, helicities, chiralities , mass of particles in function of codes and informations in this field. That is why these chiral symmetries breakings become relevant in ranking all this puzzle with the spherical topological geometrical algebras that I created with these spherical volumes and specific series considering the 3 main systems free cosmologically.It is really a question of broken symmetries due to main unknown informations.

Georgina Woodward

End of naivety about measurement, rather. The measurement process imposes a relative perspective, and quantifies or qualitatively determines something about the object or actualization relative to something else. I.e. there is an [object - actualization]/[ observer or apparatus] relationship, providing context. In this way, a state or value is isolated by measurement and attributed as a property of the measured entity. Though the determined value, the quantified measurement or determined singular qualitative state attributed to the variable is really offspring of the contextual relationship. This is not confined to quantum physics. Measurables are sample-able variables, parameters and constants used to gain some cognition of the external world. Those sampled measurables provide the 'properties' that allow construction of models and ideas about how that World/ universe functions. Map-variables, not terrain.

Georgina Woodward

The Terrain that is the reality that exists outside of our minds and representations, is more than a singular 'Map' representations encapsulates. There are many ways the Terrain can be interacted with and represented. One deterministic Map doesn't show any of the other possibilities that have not been put into the 'Map'. Preparation -The multiplicity of value or states ceases to apply. Not thinking about Wild type, complete objects but a limited set of observables or measurables that could be selected for measurement. Method A relationship is formed with the object giving access to a facet of the chosen observable. Result Finally the result is obtained and the single fixed state or value is promoted to representation of the property of the object or phenomenon considered. Thought-There is a connection to the Many worlds idea. Potential for many Maps at the source, not many Terrains on product side.

Georgina Woodward

"... several conceptions of the ideal of objectivity are either questionable or unattainable. The prospects for a science providing a non-perspectival "view from nowhere" or for proceeding in a way uninformed by human goals and values are fairly slim, for example."] "Scientific Objectivity", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2017 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.)

Thomas Ray

The brand of objectivity that I prefer comes from the correspondence theory of truth that Popper rehabilitated for science. As with any correspondence theory, it is based on a metaphysically real philosophy--i.e. it holds there is a reality external to the observer -- which is diametrically opposed to the views of these physicists (and is, I perceive, the majority view of the FQXi membership)

Georgina Woodward

A lot of the debate on what it (knowledge, related to facts) is and isn't could be eliminated by agreeing on an extra term; 'misinformed knowledge'; Referring to what seems to be knowledge of an external truth but is not what it seems to be.

A belief can be justified without the subject of that belief being the truth or the whole truth. It is also possible to see that JTB (Justified True belief) can change to JMB (Justified Misinformed belief) when additional information is available. i.e. what was true for the known data set is not true for the expanded data set. Example: All swans are white -until the first black swan is found. The opposite process may also occur; supposed (according to available data and expert opinion) JMB can change to JTB when more facts are available later. Example: a high fat diet can be healthy for a human being.

Deleted_USER

hey to you,.....

""End of naivety about measurement,""

Information and measure

information : it is a quantum state change is due the modification of one degree of freedom from the considered quantum system.

During a measure, To be informed by the system, the measurer needs information, taking information out the system during the measurement process but with the measure, the new system to considers is the global system, there was only a transfer of information between two parts of the global system; similar to the known concept of entanglement

Georgina Woodward

Hi Olivier, information' already has lots of meanings. Using a prefix or adjective with it, to make it a name that fits precisely your particular concept, would be helpful.

Steve Dufourny

Hi Georgina, It is what I tell also about the fact that we need to know the origin philosophical like the meaning of these informations, they must have a strucutre also in correlating with the spacetime of the GR like for the loop quantum gravitation has made. Without a structure, an origin also , it is not sufficient, the informations are a complex puzzle conmsidering what they are really in their pure universal meaning which is different than the qubits that we have invented with the computing,

Thomas Ray

Belief doesn't belong in science, Georgina. One can't be half rational.

Steve Dufourny

We can have our assumptions but after all we can never affrim them without rigourous mathematical proofs, The wisdom is there, we can only accept the pure rational deterministic proved laws, axioms, equations. The problem now inside the theoretical sciences community is that we are arrived at a difficult time to explain the unknowns and we have an ocean of theories, models and all we are persuaded but we don t know these unknowns, abd when you add the vanity, that does not help of course. That said what told georgina is important about the belief because without belief we have no critic, we have no interpretation, no creativity simply, but a sure thing is that only the determinism seems the truth .

Georgina Woodward

"Whatever I have up till now accepted as most true I have acquired either from the senses or through the senses. But from time to time I have found that the senses deceive, and it is prudent never to trust completely those who have deceived us even once." Descartes R, 1641, translated by J. Cottingham.

How do you judge whether the correspondence is between true/factual existential reality, Tom? Fact is defined as true and true is defined as fact. How is correspondence to existential truth to be ascertained? If using some process you consider reliable surely you have some faith or belief in that process. If correspondence between theory and result -how do you know you have the correct metaphysics? If relying on what is 'sensorily' given to use Einstein's phrase, the assumption is of correspondence between that and existential reality.

Georgina Woodward

P.S. That's what 'justification' was about.

Georgina Woodward

Talking about trust, confidence, credence, acceptance of reliability having justification of some sort for that particular metaphysical footing.

Thomas Ray

As Karl Popper discovered, and I accept as fact, no proposition can ever be verified. Certain scientific propositions can be falsified, however. For this I do not need belief; Popper and I appeal to E.M. Forster: "I do not believe in belief."

Phenomena fall into one of three categories: True, False and Unproven. LEJ Brouwer took seriously the law of the excluded middle, and left open the possibility that unproven phenomena might someday be converted to provably true or false. Again, no belief required.

I go into great detail on judging true from false, scientifically, in most of my FQXi essays.

Georgina Woodward

1. "There is a reality external to the observer." Tom.

Its nature is in question.

2. "I accept as fact, no proposition can ever be verified." Quote by Tom (This is a statement of belief.) It weakens your first statement.

I don't see how that combination, statements 1+2 is any better than: to paraphrase- We don't know what external reality is but accept the moon is there when not looking. Which I think is Carlo's position or Sabine's description of herself as an Epistemologist rather than realist. Which is an opt out of saying anything about external existential reality.

"Phenomena fall into one of three categories: True, False and Unproven." Tom How is the discernment of the true phenomena enabled, without justification? Aren't all unproven and unprovable by virtue of statement 2

Georgina Woodward

Carlo I think mentions spacetime being somehow emergent.

Being rational Tom, existential matter should not be put into spacetime to avoid paradox- which is logically disallowed. Spacetime (observed) is a product of EMr receipt and processing. There needs to be distributed matter which is source of emitted and /or reflected Emr. The arrangement of the matter needs to change giving foundational time. EMr transmission occurs in that environment. Justification: unambiguous sequential processes, relative perception, no paradox,

Georgina Woodward

Correction.

Sabine says she's not a realist but realism is a good working hypothesis. She describes herself as an instrumentalist. (I wrote epistemologist, which was incorrect) Her own standpoint: "I can't prove anything exists besides me." "The task of science is not to figure out some truth about reality, whatever that might mean. The task is to find descriptions of our observations, not more and not less." Sabine Hossenfelder

Georgina Woodward

Perhaps I should arrange the words to be clear that Space time is a result not a premise. When electromagnetic radiation is received and processed, the product contains temporal spread due to the different travel times of the inputs. Giving a space time product. Existential matter is not a space time product unlike seen semblances generated from electromagnetic radiation receipt.

John Cox

Georgina,

What is your idea of the physical form of electromagnetic radiation? QM holds it to be a discrete (massless) particle, so why does it also register a sinusoidal response in a receiver? To assert that Spacetime is a product of emission and receipt of EMR kind of beggs the question; "What IS it?"

Georgina Woodward

Hi john,

I have seen some interesting results with oil droplets on a vibrating bed of oil. Also a hydrophobic oil droplet on water. These are not exactly photons . However the results are showing some quantum like behavior-Such as quantum corral like, quantum tunneling-like and being both particle and wave able to pass as a particle part though one slit and wave portion through both. Wave interference hasn't been reproducibly demonstrated though. This combo-form would allow particle and wave together to be detected as a wave and the particle part to be detected as a particle. A divisible wave that can give an interference pattern affecting the particle portions location when recombined but not (yet) detectable otherwise could account for some 'weirdness'.

John Cox

Georgi,

I'm inclined to favor that interpretation also, or something quite similar. Lot's of room for hypothesis. :-) jrc

Steve Dufourny

Hi John, happy to see you on FQXi, and what about the hypothesis of hypothesis lol like if the assumption of an hypotheisis was just a hypothesis

John Cox

Steve,

It is best to be able to laugh about it, lest we take ourselves too seriously. Logic began in antiquity as a quest to find if we could know if what we thought about things was at all true to reality, and now more than two millennia later with a lot more math we still wonder!

Steve Dufourny

Hi John, all this is laughing I must say indeed even the theoretical physics community, all persuaded to understand the universe, the maths, the physics, the philosophy , but in fact we know nothing still, that said when we observe the universe and when we study these sciences and when we search answers in philosophy also, some truths appear , that is why these spheres 3D are for me the choice of God simply , after all there are only this inside this universe cosmologically speaking, they are not too simple, they are very complex in details and the same for the 3D quantum series of spheres .What I find laughing to be frank is that since einstein they are all endoctrinated like the only one truth with these photons like the light of god playing at guitar now with strings inside and creating the mass with the mass energy equivalence lol and in considering the informations there in the strings inside the photons connected with the hand of god in this GR, it is laughing no John frankly , and you are right we know nothing in a sense about the complexity of all these 3D spheres, they are not simple, what we observe and measure actually are just 0,000000000001 percent of properties emergent of these spheres in motions rotations oscillations , what a world, and us the humans and our vanity we beleive that we have understood god and the physics laughing is a weak word and they take this seriously furthermore indeed, the vanity is the problem, we have a problem us the humans encoded in our minds and DNA due to a sad common past of adaptation or maybe god drunk belgian beers when he has created the nhumans I don t know lol we are simply an error lol all persuaded the humans