Continue on with this subject..

Violation of Bell's Inequalities appear to have put us in the position of either rejecting the idea of hidden variables or accepting the notion of hidden variables as they apply to non-locality.

Some theorists who do not like the experimental results will say, "I will concede the existence of non-locality as long as I get to retain the ability to rely on hidden variables." Others will simply reject the experimental results entirely and argue the fine points of the experimental setups. They will concentrate on finding ways to show how the results are invalid. Again, going back to my points earlier, this sounds more like an attempt to hold onto a particular worldview rather than taking an objective look at the evidence and trying to reach the most logical conclusion that represents the most plausible interpretation. If the inequalities had not been violated and the results of experiment had told them what they wanted to hear, would they be pressing the issue of validity? I would tend to believe not.

The experimental results have been replicated many times. If someone were to demonstrate and empirically prove that hidden variables indeed exist, I would have no choice but to accept their existence. That evidence, however, does not exist and nobody has put forth any consistent theory that would account for or explain such hidden variables. This does not mean I am right. It simply means that I have formed my opinion in as objective a way possible, irrespective of my own prejudices and metaphysical bias. It doesn't really matter to me if it turns out that hidden variables do indeed exist anymore than it would matter to me if it turned out that we discovered that the Universe really was the back of a Tortoise floating in a gigantic pool of water. I simply see no reason to currently accept either proposition. They appear to be conjectures based on criteria that appeals to an individuals metaphysical desires and inclinations about how the world should operate.

In the absence of evidence for hidden variables, I can only objectively infer that classical reductionism likely died a very slow death as we discovered more and more about the workings of nature on scales that are far removed from our senses. Many have refused to attend the funeral and hold out hope that it simply went AWOL and will one day reappear or manage to resurrect itself. The theoretical community appears to be going through the progressive states of Kubler-Ross -- Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance. Currently, many seem to be somewhere between the Bargaining-Depression state.

I believe that any resolution of the conceptual and ontological issues we face are likely going to result not from a reformulation of Quantum Mechanics or a discovery of hidden variables, but will involve a major paradigm shift that reorganizes our intuitive and causal notions of how nature is structured on a phenomenological level, not only microscopically but macroscopically as well.

To give you an idea of what I mean, we should consider some examples from History. In the history of our quest to understand the structure and properties of the phenomenon that exist in the natural world, there have been two fundamental reasons for shifts in thought that lead us to reformulate current principles. Such shifts either result from observations that force this change upon, as is the case with QM, or they result from a radical ideological shift in perspective. Both will lead to a reformulation of fundamental notions or concepts about the world but the latter proves more powerful as it forces one to reformulate ideas on a global scale. It forces a new approach to an old problem using entirely novel ontological conceptions about the nature of the Universe itself, not just a specific phenomenon associated with an arbitrary scale of influence.

I would present two examples here that explain each type of methodological shifts .

Contrary to popular opinion and many textbooks, Copernicus did not discover that the Earth orbited the Sun. Copernicus presented a Hypothesis--one that was neither logically or empirically necessary, given the information available at the time. The Ptolemaic system could account for the observations of the behavior of heavenly bodies with equal precision. Unlike our venture into the Quantum world, the Heliocentric hypothesis was not one which was formed as a result of some new observation that could not be accounted for within the confines of the accepted theory of the time. Copernicus did not come out and say to the world, "Hey guys, we've got this all wrong. I was just observing the sky last night and discovered that the Earth is actually circling the Sun. We've got this whole thing wrong !"

The Heliocentric hypothesis was one that had fermented in the cellar for centuries. You can find the hypothesis present in some schools of thought all the way back to the Greeks. Copernicus framed the heliocentric hypothesis on a much more refined and accurate scale, using the precise data available at the time. He was able to do something the Greeks could not--he could match empirical data to a hypothesis and give it some life. Still, I must emphasize that the Heliocentric hypothesis was not necessary to be true in order to account for the data -- the Ptolemaic model did so with equal precision. Since displacing the Earth from it's primal and privileged position was abhorrent to the common sensibilities of the time, why, then, did it gradually gain acceptance? It offered simplicity and elegance that the Ptolemaic system could not. It accounted for the astronomical observations in a much more straightforward and rational way. In short, it made more intuitive sense; whereas the Ptolemaic system, with its bizarre system of epicycles and deferent, did not. One could more easily explain and account for observed phenomenon.

The period that followed represents a time when the ideology of the world was turned totally upside down as a result of the inferences we derived from the theory. It marks the beginning of the scientific revolution and allowed us to proceed in ways previously undreamed of. We have never looked back since. Obviously, the idea was slow to be accepted. As with the Theory of Evolution today, it infers things about our existence that many people may not want to hear. If our position in the Universe is not special then perhaps we are not as special as we thought. In the case of Copernicus, the idea started to take shape that perhaps the world does not revolve around us, either literally or figuratively. IMHO, the Copernican Revolution represents the most radical shift in naturalistic and rational thought in the History of the Western world.

Compare this Paradigm shift to the changes in reasoning that occur when nature forces upon us, by means of direct observation, certain tenets or principles which cannot be avoided but do conflict with the current paradigm.

A misconception in the history of physics as it is portrayed in most texts is that Planck was a willing accomplice in the development of Quantum Theory. Planck's motivation for introducing the notion of quantization was entirely methodological and not thematic. He was simply using quantization as a neat mathematical trick. His goal was to create a mathematical model which could be used to reproduce the spectral observations gleaned from the study of blackbody radiation.

Another misconception is that he was motivated to do so due to the Ultraviolet Catastrophe. This is not the case -- in any way, shape, or form. Planck held great reservations surrounding the methodological application of Boltzmann's statistic to observed phenomenon. He never trusted such an approach as a internally consistent method of relating thermodynamic properties of macroscopic systems to micro-phenomenon. He saw the application of M-B statistics as rather arbitrary and contrived. He set out to create his own methodology that would not rely on assumptions about the mathematical forms of the distributions themselves. In other words, he was asking, 'What mathematical form of the distribution equations would allow one to successful model the spectral phenomenon?' His goal was to model the behavior of the system, not start with assumptions about the statistical behavior of an ideal ensemble.

Using Classic Electrodynamics, Planck tackled the issue by imagining that all of the component structures contained in a body that gave rise to the EM waves could be imagined as charges on the end of springs, vibrating back and forth like a simple harmonic oscillator. He worked out an equation to model the energy distribution among the components that would give the exact results measured in experiment. He gradually found out that he could never apply a continuous distribution of energy among the oscillators and model the empirical results. The only way he could make the mathematics work is if he assigned each oscillator only discreet values of energy which were proportional to an arbitrary constant. We know the rest of the story.

The gist here is that Planck thought of quantization only as a mathematical trick that would allow him to model the phenomenon. His goal was not to explain the nature of the underlying entities which made up the system. He, and others, refused to even entertain the idea that the quantization of energy states had anything to do with the entities themselves. When he published his results, he presented the equations as a mathematical tool to model the observed phenomenon. He was not making a statement about the nature of the underlying entities themselves.

It wasn't until Einstein took up the study of the Photoelectric effect and direct experimental proof of quantization of light was shown to exist that he finally came to grips with the idea that quantization indeed occurs on a fundamental level. He admits he only grudgingly accepted the notion. It is for this reason, btw, that many consider Einstein the founder of Quantum Theory -- or at least co-founder. It is also ironic that both men eventually came to reject the theory which arose from their work. Neither would ever accept Quantum Theory as a complete and accurate representation of nature. Two of the most brilliant men in the history of physics let their prejudices concerning the ontological nature of reality interfere with the acceptance of a theory.

The point here is not to bloviate but to offer a different perspective on the subject of interpretations. There are two different ways in which we come about altering our perspectives.

Shifts in understanding may come from areas of research that are largely ignored and still in their infancy. In our current case, I believe that such areas of study include chaos theory, complexity, and emergence. These are realms where processes take on a more fundamental role than discreet substance and represent different ways of tackling an issue. I believe that work in these areas could possibly allow us to make sense of things that we may be missing in transitions as we go from one level of structure to the next.

We have made a lot of ontological assumptions about the nature of physical reality and how systems are constructed. Many of them are hard to hold onto in the face of current observations of the world beyond our senses. I think we need to ask the question, what is fundamental to nature? The assumption has always been that discreet substance(whatever that means on the subatomic level) is the most fundamental property of nature that is responsible for all observed systems. The notion that substance may not be fundamental may seem absurd and nonsensical but on close inspection it is not as absurd as one may think -- can it be more absurd than believing that a photon possesses certain ontological properties that allow it to simultaneously be both a wave and a particle?

Also, I wanted to add that a degree of 'weirdness' is not a valid criterion of selection when accepting a theory and my last statement did not mean to imply it should be. If it was, nobody would ever have accepted Quantum Mechanics. I am pointing out that Nature need not conform to our metaphysical predilections and we should never proceed with the inherent assumption that any fundamental theory is not obliged to jive with neat and tidy ontological notions concerning physical reality. Nature plays it's own game.We don't get to set the rules.

  • [deleted]

I have been intrigued by QM as well. I think its possible to utilize rationality (science) and draw a map of self/world that is quite paradoxical to a materialist point of view. Information via the senses displays a picture of disparate matter moving through space and time. A closer look via QM also discloses a space-time transcendent oneness between matter/energy separated in space/time.

The subject-object dualism which is a strong feature at the macro realm begins to looks like a non-duality at the quantum realm. The questions we ask, "What am I?", "What is the world?" imply a primary, fundamental division between a pure subject who asks the questions and the object of which it is asked, but the subject-object divide may be secondary, or approximate feature of reality.

It appears that when matter is probed to its depths, its existence in a noumenal space/time setting is challenged. Space and time themselves appear to be phenomenon, rather than noumenon. But even this distinction does not move past the subject-object divide.

A rational inquiry into self and world via science has brought us to the edge of a new understanding. I think the chief finding here is that the subject-object divide within consciousness and reality is not fundamental. Consciousness, within which all appears is far more mysterious than we thought.

An approach which studies consciousness directly, subjectively would seem to fit our prescription now. This is what I find most compelling about Yoga... that here is a methodology worked out over millienia for doing just that. It does not replace science, that is not its genius. But it offers another, now crucial direction in which to take our inquiry.

  • [deleted]

Not sure how yoga could help solve the roblem of Wave Function collapse. I can't imagine Physicists doing Yoga while working out a calculation.

    • [deleted]

    That paints a hilarious picture in my mind -- physicists doing the downward dog while calculating. I should have been clearer about what I meant by the word 'Yoga'. I tend to forget that most persons think about Yoga as a bunch of postures, when its actually a method to explore consciousness directly, as opposed to constructing abstract models of its nature and function. The postures are almost irrelevant to Yoga in its actual context, but that's whats out there for sale.

    I assume that there is no disagreement about the "paradoxical" subject-object relationship seen in the double slit experiment, for example. We have been trying to "understand" the implications of what is abstracted as "wave function collapse", and this certainly leads us to wondering about the relationship between consciousness and matter. Even Anton Zeilinger has met with the Dalai Lama to see if there might be Buddhist insights available on this mystery. Yoga is actually a close cousin of Buddhism and speaks on the same things in a similar vein -- hence my comment.

    So, I wondered if there was any interest in a direct exploration of consciousness, so that the "paradox" could perhaps be better understood. There seems to be a paradigm shift going on which is moving us away from reductionism and materialism -- heck, there is even a statue of the patron of Yoga, the Dancing Shiva, at CERN.

    http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shiva.html

    http://public.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2004/PR10.04ECouncil.html

    Hi

    When people explore the nature of consciousness in an attempt to resolve the weirdness of QM, they are making an implicit assumption about the scope and structure of the theory we have built -- namely, that the theory itself represents something more than an elaborate Turing machine which we have constructed to allow us to model phenomenon on the level of detail beyond our senses.

    As I mentioned in my prior post, the mathematical structure and formalism of QM was something forced upon us by the nature of our observations. Such a construct is logically necessary. The variants of QM(e.g. Canonical, Path Integral, Field Theory) represent the only systematic ways one can construct a formal mathematical structure that takes into account the quantization of observables. We have carried over some of the the basic principles and structures from Classical Mechanics, such as the implicit notions of least action present in the Lagrangian and Hamiltonian dyanmics. We have also carried with it the ontological notions about casualty that have arisen from our intuitive understanding of the world of our senses. In other words,we have taken along with us the philosophical baggage we have intuitively derived from our sense experiences and this the reason for our cognitive dissonance.

    The fundamental question is not what QM is describing as it relates to our intuitive understanding of the world of our senses, as this picture will always be incomplete given that we are mixing categories. In my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever to assign properties like 'partlecness' or 'waveess' to things like electrons or photons. Intuitive concepts like 'particleness' and 'waveeness' have arisen from the intuitive concepts we have formed from our sense experiences of the world in which we live.

    In other words, from my perspective, we cannot retain any logical consistency in our world-view if we employ intuitive constructs such as an electron being either a particle or a wave -- or anything resembling the structures we assign to things in our world. These only represent neat and abstract mathematical constructs that allow us to explain in a stochastic fashion, the behavior of the systems under scrutiny.

    I liken this to being at a party and playing charades with your friends. Your form solutions to the problems of identification by trying to relate abstract clues in a game of association. You rely on your memory and intuitive understanding of relations, causal structures, and imagery. You form a set of al possible things which could account for the clues and then narrow them down to form an identification by selecting one member from the set. You come up with an answer -- you are a cow ! Woohoo -- pass me a beer !

    When we speak of substance on the level in which we apply QM, what are we really talking about? When trying to answer this question, we can only form the answer using, as a basis, our intuitive understanding of phenomenon gleaned from our classical sense-experiences of the world around us, on the scale in which we live. Like charades, we form the set of all possible things which can account for the clues. The problem is, there are no members of the set which can account for the things we are describing in QM. We have no intuitive or sense-experience information in our thought processes for an entity called a 'wavicle'. A wavicle is not a member of the set of things formed by our experience and intuition. We would never be able to intuit an object with such properties from the sense-impressions we have formed through our existence.

    Take, for example, a physical system whereby we might model an electron conconfined to a potential. First of all, we are assuming that there is an entity which corresponds, in a classical sense, to something being confined -- like confining a pool ball to the confines of a table. IMO, this notion is FUBAR to begin with. We are mixing ontological categories of being and structure. There is no direct map to the set of all our sense to the set of all properties and behaviors observed on the QM level. We just try to play the game assuming there are. That's when things go haywire.

    It is much more logically sound and consistent to speak instead not of substance as something fundamental to a phenomenon, but as a fundamental process that determines the changes any arbitrary system will undergo when we think of in the classical sense. In a classical sense, strip a particle of it's properties then what is it? What is left of an electron if you take away its properties of charge, mass, and energy? Nothing. You could not identify such a thing --there is no substance left. The properties themselves ARE the substance. They define the substance in a classical intuitive sense, not the QM sense. In other words, there is nothing there in the classical sense of a point-like particle running amok like pool balls flying about on a table.

    It is more consistent and sane to think of something like an electron not as substance but as an emergent feature of some fundamental underlying process that is beyond our ability to comprehend or intuit. Thing such as the appearance of an electron, photon, etc represent the possible degrees of freedoms of such a fundamental system. Interactions,forces, fields, in the classic sense, represent the possible degrees of freedom.

      • [deleted]

      Hi Bubba,

      I agree with what you say. Heisenberg said the same: "The ontology of materialism rested upon the illusion that the kind of existence, the direct "actuality" of the world around us, can be extrapolated into the atomic range. This extrapolation is impossible, however. Bohr said the same, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract physical description. It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature."

      I agree that what we have is a hard won formalism, that is brilliantly constructed and we can get on with the business of Techne, but Scientia, as approached via materialism is at an end. We still have our "paradoxical" experimental results to think about in terms of what they might be telling us about self/world. Let's stick with the double slit experiment, and variations such as 'Delayed choice quantum eraser". What's paradoxical to us is that the state of knowledge of the experimenter and the experimental results are correlated, entangled. In other words, the categories of 'mind' and 'matter' that are separable at the human sensory level are not separable when we look as deeply as we have with QM. Now this is not a surprise to either Vedanta nor Yoga. If a culture does not get stuck at the Cartesian division, then its not so difficult to deduce that its impossible to even conceive of phenomenon without consciousness in place... ergo, consciousness and phenomenon are a unity; or, mind and matter are a unity. How could it be otherwise?

      As seekers of ourselves, we can take other lessons from what QM has shown us too, and this has got nothing to do with the formalism which includes the "wave function collapse". We have, in the West, considered ourselves as material beings with an emergent consciousness added on sometime during evolution. This picture is under great stress because now we have seen that matter and mind are inseparable. Given this, how would consciousness arise some time later than matter? Phenomenon and mind cannot be separated. There was no Cartesian split. It was only the Cartesian Spell that we were under. Our modern ideas about cosmology will not survive this either. But no matter, what survives or doesn't survive is irrelevant to someone actually interested in finding out about self/world. We have tried to study matter to its depth. We have chased it down and it is not a self-existent category apart from consciousness. Many cultures had already figured this out. So now what? The other pole, mind, turns out to not be an emergent property of matter, but just as primary, maybe more so, and that deserves our attention. It turns out it is very, very accessible... thus the recourse to Yoga now would seem to fit our prescription.

      Hello again.

      It is an interesting to offer our philosophical musings but it won't supply much assistance once we go into the laboratory. We will still find the same results for our experiments. I simply take an instrumentalist view when it comes to intepretaitons and believe that it really makess no sense to try to even comprehend the subject of QM in a clssical reconstructionist way.

      I say we blame all the confusion on Planck. If Planck's constant was zero, we wouldn't have needed to create this whole mess and would be able to envision atomic structure as tiny little marbles orbiting an Aggie.

        • [deleted]

        If planck's constant was zero, then we would have found ourselves to be automatons in a massive machine. We have found ourselves at the doorstep of knowing ourselves a lot more deeply... I think as time goes by, more and more persons will walk through... the West will follow at some point.

        We need to make a distinction between Philosophy and Physics. What you are proposing is certainly open to philosophical discussion but it is neither falsifiable nor verifiable in the realm of scientific inquiry.

        Science does not concern itself with questions of teleology. I am not saying such questions are not important, but they do not fall under the magisterium of the scientific method. Questions of teleology have preoccupied the mind of man since we developed the ability to form the abstract thought that allows us to form such questions.

        As interpretations of QM are not currently subject to empirical verification or negation, it's pretty much a free-for-all out there. It can be easy to go overboard with the speculations and we are given a license to let our imaginations run wild. Again, it proves to be an interesting exercise but we should caution against equating our own interpretations as facts.

        I remember back in the 80's when popular accounts of QM such as, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters' and "The Tao of Physics' came out. Scientists realized that lack of empirical verification essentially handed them a 'get out of jail free' card when offering their own interpretations to the public.

        The result is that authors of these popular accounts of modern physics ran amok with wild and often bizarre stories that border on the nonsensical. They took ideas like the MW interpretations and turned them into fanciful stories that sound more like they were stolen from the script of an Episode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine rather than from a science textbook. People liked to hear that in an alternate reality they were filthy rich and drove a Jag. The public forgets that we have no way of proving such wild takes and it is nothing but fanciful speculation at this point. In fact, some current contemporary theories haven't even been verified empirically, yet textbooks and popular accounts often portray reality as if multiverses and the like are real.

        • [deleted]

        Yes, we need to be careful... but who exactly denies that we have found a non-separability of the 2 categories termed 'mind' and 'matter'? Does anyone question this anymore? This is not in the realm of speculation and philosophy, but empirical fact. This does not have to do with which interpretation of QM one wishes to believe.

        There is all this bravado about following where the evidence leads us, but instead there is a profound stuckness in materialism still, and dualism still. On the one hand we talk about the need to move beyond the 17th century worldview of Newton and Descartes, and on the other hand there is fear at moving on. Why are we still attached to pictures of self and world that do not fit the facts? We no longer have the evidence to believe in determinism. Why should we believe that we are automatons without free will, and the world is a great big wind up clock? Time to move on.

        Within us, thought has seen its limits, and that's just how it is... its not speculation or philosophy... now what? We can keep making more models, but they will *never* be complete. Even in principle, they can never be complete. The quest for knowledge through the exclusive use of the sensory and cognitive modes has come to an end. Now what? Should we just quit, or find something more within us to keep going?

        These people are helping us move ahead... one will need to argue against them.

        Anton Zeilinger in http://www.signandsight.com/features/614.html



        Q: So there is in fact something that exists independently of us. And the moon is also there when I'm not looking at it.



        AZ: Something exists, but it is not directly accessible to us. Only indirectly. And whether this thing must really be called the "moon" is another question. That is also a construct.



        Q: But there is something up there...



        AZ: ... the word "there" is yet another construct. Space and time are concepts aimed at giving meaning to our world of appearances. So they are entirely reasonable constructs. By no means do I want to give the impression that I believe everything is just our imagination.



        Q: The world as a huge theatre that only plays in our heads.

AZ: That is certainly not my view of things.

Q: Then what would you call it, this something that you can't call moon or space or time - this something that exists independently of us?

        

AZ: Wouldn't I be making another qualification if I tried to give it a name? Isn't it enough if I just say it exists? As soon as you use words like "world" or "universe", you start lugging about all that conceptual ballast again.

        Q: But you defend the thesis that there is an "original matter of the universe": information. 



        AZ: Yes. For me the concept of "information" is at the basis of everything we call "nature". The moon, the chair, the equation of states, anything and everything, because we can't talk about anything without de facto speaking about the information we have of these things. In this sense the information is the basic building block of our world.



        Q: But just now you spoke of a world that exists independently of us.

        

AZ: That's right. But this world is not directly ascertainable or describable. Because every description must be done in terms of the information, and so you inevitably get into circular reasoning. There's a limit we can't cross. And even a civilisation on Alpha Centauri can't cross it. For me that's something almost mystical.

        I'm tired of believing in fairy tales, even if they are told by persons called "Scientists". If we don't like words like "Mysticism" or "Yoga", we don't have to use them.

        Paul Davies: "the very notion of physical law is a theological one in the first place, a fact that makes many scientists squirm. Isaac Newton first got the idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws from the Christian doctrine that God created the world and ordered it in a rational way. Christians envisage God as upholding the natural order from beyond the universe, while physicists think of their laws as inhabiting an abstract transcendent realm of perfect mathematical relationships."



        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/24/opinion/24davies.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

        I think its an exciting time... time for a change, but we should move carefully... and discussions like these can be very helpful. Thanks.

        Hi Pankej,

        With the advent of QM, I agree that determinism and classical constructionism are no longer tenable; however, that does not infer that nature is structured in a way that defies some semblance of casual explanation that necessitates the introduction of a 'ghost in the machine.'

        Science is not concerned with establishing truths and the questions and opinions you are presenting fall under the purvue of Philosophy. Science cannot arrive at truths as science relies on inductive inference, not deductive reasoning that starts with a set of axioms and ends up with proofs. The final judge of any proposition in science is not a deductive proof, but an observation. No matter how certain we are of our present theories, all it takes is a single observation to throw a monkey wrench into the picture. Theories are amenable to change, truth is not.

        The Q&A you supplied, although interesting, simply represent opinions that represent the philosophical ideations of a particular individual. This does not mean such opinions are false simply because someone does not agree with them. It simply means that for a scientist, there is no way to empirically confirm or falsify any of these opinions as they are not subject to testing. In a practical sense, they serve no operational purpose to a scientist -- they represent background noise that can be ignored.

        Now, I have already stated that our philosophical ideology may determine how we proceed when constructing testable hypothesis,;but, the hypothesis must be testable, or it is not science.

        We need to be very cautious about confusing science with philosophy, especially when the subject of QM comes up. The Internet is full of the crazy crackpot theories when it comes to this subject. Just as with politics, everyone seems to have an opinion on what QM is really telling us. I am certainly not calling your position crazy and I am not implying that philosophy is not important, as it surely is. I greatly enjoy philosophy. It's just that we can get ahead of ourselves and scientists can end up sounding like snake-oil salesmen instead of scientists. I think the scientific community as a whole needs to calm the hell down about Quantum weirdness.

        The position you hold is one that an individual is forced to either accept or deny, largely based on their own philosophical bias. Nobody has any way to deductively prove or empirically verify any such position.

          • [deleted]

          We have probed the depths and have come face to face with the Quantum. This has led to terrible weapons as well as communications technology which can make the whole world as One. The Quantum has also led us to a deep reflection, and has pointed the attention back onto ourselves, to our own inner depths, towards an illumination we always wanted but didn't know how to approach.

          The surface looks into the depths and receives all these possibilities. In Taoism, extreme Yin turns into Yang, extreme Yang turns into Yin. We have looked outwards as far as possible and have been led back to ourselves. We have been taught by the Quantum, that an objective stance eventually requires the exploration of our own subjectivity. Therein lies our next adventure where we shift from asking "What is the World?", to "Who asks that question?".

          There is a mystical tradition in India known as "Spanda Karika" translated as "The Doctrine of Vibration". It states that at the depth of experience is a vibration, a discontinuous change, a flickering, which from an objective stance can be appreciated as an external existent that one can watch, but also that this flickering is the depth of oneself, the subject. This flickering is the coming and going of the world, but an even deeper understanding is that it is the self-movement of consciousness, of reality. There can be a looking upon this, or an identification with it. The former is a distant knowledge in the form of the subject-object distinction. The latter is the experience of the flickering reality to itself, which can be experienced as one's own deep nature. This self-experience is termed "Samadhi" meaning the non-distinction of subject and object. This is, finally, a self-illumination of the world, through any and all subjects in the world. This is also called "Moksha", meaning "The end of the road", or "Finishing up", or "Liberation/Freedom". It is said that this is what we crave, or that this is the movement of reality towards itself, that plays itself out in all subjects.

          "Nothing perceived is independent of perception and perception differs not from the perceiver, therefore the universe is nothing but the perceiver."

          "[This] Bliss", writes Abhinava, "is not like the intoxication of wine or that of riches, nor similar to union with the beloved. The manifestation of the light of consciousness is not like the ray of light from a lamp, sun or moon. When one frees oneself from accumulated multiplicity, the state of bliss is like that of putting down a burden; the manifestation of the Light is like the acquiring of a lost treasure, the domain of universal non-duality."

          The Doctrine of Vibration: An analysis of the doctrines and practices of Kashmir Shaivism

          Mark S. G. Dyczkowski - State University of New York Press, 1987

          http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Vibration-Doctrines-Practices-Traditions/dp/0887064329

          Hi,

          The experimental study of radioactivity and fission led to the development of fission weapons. We could have built a bomb without any knowledge of QM whatsoever. All you need is the ability to produce enriched uranium and the technological capacity to bring two parts together into a critical mass without fizzling out.

          Quantum teleportation and communication are still highly theoretical developments that have yet to bear any fruit. These are highly speculative subjects and researchers are really not sure to what extent we can make practical use of properties such as entanglement. The most promising area so far seems to be in quantum computing. As far as everything else, most experimentation to date has really not been that successful in doing much of anything other than dealing with systems of single pairs of entangled photons. IMO, the popular notion of Quantum Teleportation transporting humans and such is simply a wild fantasy, unless proven otherwise. So far, this idea has only been successful in selling pop-sci books to people who watch too much Star Trek.

          • [deleted]

          Hi Bubba,

          Re: Tool Making

          In the West, the Cartesian dualism still persists. It is believed that mind looks upon a reality that exists independently of it. This is a metaphysical stance, rather than something disclosed by empiricism. This dualist position is not "Science", but "Metaphysics". A scientific position, given by empirical evidence is that "Nothing perceived is independent of perception."

          The Kantian formulation of "Phenomenon-Noumenon" is also not a scientific position, given by empiricism. In fact, this is simply another dualism, a more subtle version of the Cartesian split, which cannot be supported by evidence either. We hope to say something about a "Veiled Reality", that exists independently of the perceiving subject, that exists outside of sentience, but we have no empirical basis to support such a position. It is a metaphysical position masquerading as a Scientific stance. The only thing that empiricism discloses, the only thing that there is evidence for is "Nothing perceived is independent of perception." This is a non-dualism, which is not a metaphysical stance, but an empirically derived and thus Scientific position.

          The Cartesian stance, and even the Kantian stance are just that, stances, which are useful positions to take so as to get a particular sort of view, one that avails itself to a type of investigation we call "Science". And this is very powerful, gives us the ability to model the sensory display as mechanism, which has led to marvellous technological innovation. But if we do not step out of these stances, we might get lost in them, even losing ourselves, and ourselves and others as "mechanism".

          Tools are great, but forgetting oneself is not. Thus, the Quantum, the flickering of the sensory display at its depths brings us back to "Scientia" (KNOWLEDGE), rather than getting lost within the models we make towards the pursuit of "Techne" (TOOL MAKING).

            • [deleted]

            Forgot to put my name in above post... though you probably would've guessed. Thanks again.

            Pankaj

            Hi Pnakjaj,

            This Web Site, I assume, is devoted to the discussions of issues related to the advancement of our scientific knowledge. I would therefore assume that most people who visit a board that falls under the auspices of science would be visiting to discuss various aspects of knowledge and theory-making that fall within that context. Debating the truth or falsehood of such an esoteric topic as mind/body dualism is not something that would be of value to someone who visits a web domain that is dedicated to discussion scientific theories. A neurologist might be interested in the subject, but probably not physicists.

            Again, I am not saying such questions are not important -- they are. But everything has it's place. Discussing such topics on a board dedicated to physics is kind of like going to a Chinese restaurant and ordering a hamburger and fries.

            What you are proposing is interesting to discuss but I am not sure how it adds to the goal of advancing our scientific understanding of nature. You obviously adhere to some form of idealism. But what practical value does such an opinion have for science? We will still measure the same mass for the hydrogen atom, the Earth will continue in it's orbit and we still will have no verified theory that unifies gravity with QM.

              • [deleted]

              Hi Bubba,

              Let me point out that this portion of the forum is called "Ultimate Reality", and there are other portions where discussion should indeed be limited to whatever is suggested by their titles.

              The words "Science" "Physics" and "Nature" have a long history, and what is meant or encompassed by these words has changed over time. This process of change continues even today. We are not at some end point of knowledge. Without discussion of foundational issues, as is the goal of this website, we will become ossified.

              The Greek "Scientia" means knowledge, and the modern rendition "Science" is limited in its meaning when compared against the original. The Greek "Physis" is translated as "Nature", and it encompasses more than the modern use of the word "Physics" connotes. I believe that we have ample reasons, which I have stated in earlier posts, to revisit the meaning and use of these words. These are very, very important foundational issues, though they are less important to someone who has an instrumentalist approach. However, it was due to persons like Bohr, Heisenberg, Shrodinger and Einstein, who were certainly not instrumentalists, that we have made very hard won advances in our knowledge of nature, and as it turns out QM is telling us something very important about nature, including our own nature; this is bringing us back to the older, wider meanings of 'Scientia' and 'Physis'. There is change afoot, and I am a harbinger of that change, as are many others.

              I would prefer to discuss the arguments that have been put forward, so as to test their veracity. But you have raised questions which are also important and in fact allow us to go further in our relationship to the very deepest foundational issues, as is the goal of this website. Thanks.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physis

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_(disambiguation)

              Hi,

              I was not suggesting that the questions should not be discussed. I was just pointing out that such philosophical opinions are ultimately of no value to science. Such opinions will not make any new predictions about the universe that can be measured or tested in a laboratory.

              Science relies on empirical evidence gathered through observation. That's just the way it is. Philosophy relies on deductive reasoning that starts with premises or axioms and uses these as a basis to form an argument that necessitates a conclusion. Too often, people skip this part when stating their position. They simply state their own opinions without offering the rational justification they used to reach the conclusions that they hold. The opinions end up sounding more like something that appealed to emotions and desires, rather than reason -- i.e. wishful thinking.

              Basically, I really don't understand what you are proposing and how it relates to furthering progress in science or philosophy. There is no way to empirically measure the veracity of the arguments you are putting forth regarding the nature of consciousness. There is no way to prove or disprove such a position rationally without making assumptions regarding the truth of religious traditions as they are present in Eastern mysticism.

              To me, it sounds like esoteric musings on a theme. The onus is not on me to show your position to be false. I simply have no reason to accept it and nobody has supplied me any rational reason why I should accept it. In the absence of evidence to prove your position, it is on you to provide some rational basis for why I should accept your position and why your position offers more intrinsic value to a scientist than any of the other myriad of interpretations for QM.

                • [deleted]

                Hi Bubba,

                The modern, fragmented version of "Scientia" known as 'Science' makes many, many "is" statements. We are presented with many ontological claims, but Relativity and QM have shown us that it would be more accurate to state many of these claims as being phenomenological. This is a very, very important point. Ontological statements stand upon thin air, unless the underlying epistemology is also clearly stated. That is, it is salutary to say "Such is the case, when examined from this particular epistemic mode, or point of view". This removes ambiguity, which otherwise can and has caused us to become lost to ourselves, and the world to be inaccurately portrayed. This is the case, for example, with what is called the "Newtonian Worldview". Because we were not clear in stating our epistemological stance, we considered Newtonian statements as ontological. The advent of Relativity and QM have caused us to see our error, and we are now trying to correct our course. We are still stuck, there is resistance to change, but we must move ahead towards recognizing and shedding our errors. In the modern world, those who call themselves "scientists" and "philosophers" too often work apart from each other. Because of the dominance of the instrumentalist approach in modern science, foundational issues are weakly addressed, and thus the change required is needlessly slow. Rare are those persons who are scientists and philosophers both, and such persons have generally been at the forefront of our advancements of knowledge; Bohr and Heisenberg come to mind here. Instrumentalism is certainly a valuable approach and those so inclined should adopt it, but then we move from "Scientia" to "Techne". Instrumentalism can give us technological innovation, but is not nearly as strong as concerns understanding. We need both. Since it is obviously more difficult to be scientist and a philosopher, such persons are rare. However, it is such rare persons who best resolve epistemic, ontological and phenomenological issues. Without these persons, we would still be enmeshed in a Newtonian worldview, which actually we are still too much in. Ideally, we need the lead of persons who are a combination of scientist, philosopher, Artist and mystic. The Artist and the Mystic open up epistemic modes/approaches that would cause for a near complete approach to knowledge, when added to Science and Philosophy.

                Modern physics is a human activity, and philosophical discussions allow us to stay away from becoming trapped in our own models, thus losing our true selves. Thanks.