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Amrit,

I'm in general agreement. Though I wouldn't say time doesn't exist, rather as a consequence of motion, it is closer to temperature, rather than space. There is a basic conceptual limitation in describing space as "three dimensional." Dimensions are projections and as such describe direction and distance. Using the speed of light to relate units of duration to linear units of distance is logical, but it doesn't fully describe the relationship between motion and space. Another concept of space is volume, which is a non-linear description of space, just as temperature is a similar non-linear description of motion. The same logic which uses the speed of light to describe time as dimension/projection/duration, could also relate temperature and volume, as the temperature of a given quantity of energy relates to the volume which contains it, so that temperature could be described as another parameter of volume, in much the same way as time is described as another dimension to space.

I think the problem is the assumption that time goes past to future. This is a fundamental intuitive assumption, as our minds function as a linear process of cause and effect. Our recording of time is as narrative, that linear projection from past to future, yet past and future do not physically exist, as the energy to manifest them is currently occupied by the present. It is this energy manifesting the series of states which creates time. These states are time and they go from future to past. Simply put, tomorrow becomes yesterday because the earth rotates, rather than that we travel a fourth dimension from past to future. Even with quantum fluctuations. The quanta go from past fluctuations to future ones, as the particular fluctuations go from future to past. It is the fluctuations which are time. As each fluctuation happens, the previous has faded into the past.

hi john

yes, as you say: time exists,

but time to exist has to be measured

we live in space only and not in time

time is a measure only

I drop termin "atemporal" because people do not like it

TIME IS MEASURE OF MOTION IN SPACE.

sure also termin "space" is not clear as in the universe we observe only distances between objects and not space

physical base of space is gravity fieldAttachment #1: Time_is_a_measure_of_motion_in_Space_Sorli__2009__arXiv.doc

john, you write:

The quanta go from past fluctuations to future ones, as the particular fluctuations go from future to past. It is the fluctuations which are time. As each fluctuation happens, the previous has faded into the past.

no fluctuations are not time, time is measurment of fluctuations, fluctuations are motion, and time is not motion, time is measure of motion

Amrit,

"Live" is a verb.

Without the function of process, there is no form. A non-fluctuating vacuum.

Amrit,

"time is measure of motion"

Exactly.

(So is temperature.)

thanks god

we are two now...........

Amrit,

Hey, time is on our side.

Steve,

Time and space are linked. By motion.

Steve, stars move in space only, elementary particles move in space only, and time is a measure of motion.

That objects move in time is a biggest misunderstanding of today science.

see in details on file attachedAttachment #1: Time_is_a_Measure_of_Motion_Sorli__2009.pdf

Steve you say:

Time and space are different but linked

tell us how in which sense bout are diffrent

and how in which sense both are linked

no one here has answer on that because time is not physical reality as space and matter are.

space-time as a physical reality is a pure APRIORY preposition thst was never proved

Common belief is that for every event to happen time is needed. In quantum world is not so. Information and energy can transfer without time passing. This puzzle is resolvable with understanding that time is a measure of motion in space. Nothing run in time, all run in space only. When we measure duration of some quantum phenomena time can be zero. This means that phenomena happens immediately, that phenomena is an immediate and timeless transfer (ITT) of energy and information.Attachment #1: 1_Immediate_Timeless_Transfer_of_Energy_and_Information_Sorli__2009.pdf

Hi Steve

in quantum world things can happen without time passing,

they are immediate, so time is not a fundamental physical reality, time is a measure of motion.

yours amrit

Hi Amrit ,

I am understanding your message ,yes time is a measure of motion ,but don't forget one thing ,the quantum world is different and many secrets are still to discover .

We are linked with the quantum world but we live in a real world where Time and Space are essential for a logic building ,the mathematic is different than the physic reality .

Krausz of Vienna University ......100 attoseconds - or 10^-16sec.

Krausz used ultraviolet-light pulses of 250-attosecond duration to

excite electrons in atoms of neon, raising them to a higher energy

level......A 10^-15

interval.

Are you sure time is immediate?

Regards

Steve

steve time is measure of motion of energy

electron is an energy packet that "jumps" from one quanta of space to another quanta of space

for one jump time is zero, for million jumps time is still zero, this means that electron moves with infinite speed

photon is an energy packet that moves with the light speed,

see more on file attachedAttachment #1: ITT_phenomena__sorli_2009.pdf

Hi dear Amrit,

Thanks ,I am seeinng now and it's more clear for me ,indeed,your study is very interesting .

(I),(E) − t v transfer 10 0, 35 immediate (atemporal) I,E transfer

(I),(E) t v − 10 0, > 35 > temporal I,E transfer

Quantum information transfer and quantum energy transfer via particles

have a light speed. Quantum information transfer and quantum energy transfer

directly via quantum space are immediate. Time of transfer is zero, speed of

transfer is infinite. We introduce here Immediate-Timeless Transfer (ITT) of

information and energy as physical phenomena that exist. For human mind is

unusual that some phenomena happen with no time passing,

but experiments.

It could be interesting to do the link with Dark energy and Dark mass ....

What do you think about the super gravity of a Black Hole ,perhaps it's a super velocity of rotation of an elementary particles (coded)....

Steve

shows opposite. ITT phenomena are becoming part of scientific research.

That was a very interesting article for me. It was also very good to see a face that goes with the name. Now I understand what Julian Barbour is attempting to achieve and I think it is courageous.

I agree that space is not expanding. I agree that time is not fundamental. I can see why the idea of the changing shape of the universe may seem an interesting avenue of research and also why having no absolute frame of reference might be appealing.

However it is on these two last points that our ideas diverge. According to my line of reasoning there must be a cause of subjective time even if in objective reality it does not exist. Constant change is necessary.

That change is the constant loss of potential energy of the matter of the universe which is equivalent to motion afore along the 4th dimension. This causes matter to form and matter comes together into structures, observed as gravity,as well as giving rise to subjective time.

This is apparent when the orientation of the 4th dimension is visualised extending from aft space to every point on the exterior surface of an object to the interior centre of gravity and beyond into afore space. Objects travel in this way, and will always take up the position of lowest potential energy possible or most afore along the 4th dimension.

Rather than having no absolute frame of reference the prime Quaternion model relates the universe to the hypersphere structure that gives rise to it. Motion in relation to the exterior and interior of the hypersphere can be considered and direction according to the dimensions of the hypersphere.While it is impossible to see objective reality to confirm the existence of such a geometric entity, it does provide a model that works.

As I have said elsewhere I did think that Julian's essay was very good and I am glad to have learned more about him and his work and approach by reading this article.

An image that recurs to me often through many years is that of a continuity of something close to dimensionality such as SU(2) X U(1) or the SO(3,3) -> SO(3,1) x C of D R Lunsford above (which looks promising).

Going from the outside in:

In the continuity at and NEAR the surface of a gravitational body, the dimensions change from those in space-time (as interplanetary, interstellar and intergalactic space) and those in isotropic acceleration toward the center, and time such as geological time, within moons, planets and stars.

On the "outside" in space-time this continuity supports radiation in the energy part of the mass-energy relation, and the motion of material objects. The time domain is a part of the velocity dimension which is evident in the speed of light c and in the simpler paths trajectories and orbits of objects. The dimensions outside are as above, SU(2) X U(1) or the SO(3,3) -> SO(3,1).

On the "inside" within gravitational bodies it supports the existence of the massive part of the mass-energy equivalence, and a time domain in which that existence is not always guaranteed forever, as in stellar radiation and planetary radioactivity. The dimensions inside appear to be at least time, acceleration and an isotropic form, rotation, two surface dimensions (longitude and latitude).

I have not rationalized the continuity well though it appears to be true continuity. It seems to require approaching the subject field with almost diaphanous imagination because the field is not understood or well conceived by our neurons. It is like repairing an integrated circuit with fish's flippers or paws.

Part of the problem is that length is a construct of measuring sticks, and planetary sizes and orbits, etc. while its only fundamental and absolute form appears to be in the Planck length. Similarly, time is a construct of the rotation of the earth and fractions and multiples of that, while the only absolute and fundamental unit of time appears to be the Planck time. That is, pending this millenium's review of the whole of physics from the earliest languages to the attainment of the Moon.