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  • Carlo Rovelli: What Does Meaning Mean in the Natural World?

Forum Moderator
“What is Agency in the Physical World”

What Rovelli says:

  • “today, agency is playing an increasing role, it already did in the past, but today more in foundational discourse”. (1:53)
  • “if you were talking about foundation, you have to ask the question who is the agent? … the agent itself should be part of nature, and it should be possible to describe she, her, it: the agent “. (3:17)
  • “the answer on which I'm working is that I believe we should be able to think about the agent as a physical system”. (3:58)
  • “solutions I'm not interested in: the first one is that there is something that does not supervene on physics, that contradict physics”. (4:25)
  • “it seems to me that there is no evidence here for the idea that is not just complex physics going on”. (4:40)
  • He goes on to say, on the lecture screen: “Agency breaks simple physical evolution; agency is time oriented; agency involves intention; agency involves a first person perspective”. (9:57)
  • Detailing the above, he goes on to say, on the lecture screen, that the agency that breaks simple physical evolution is all about approximation and levels of description. (10:55)
  • He goes on to say, on the lecture screen, that the time orientation in agency is thermodynamical. (12:38)
  • Dropping physics entirely, he goes on to say about the agency that involves intention, that “to decide” is a biological activity or indirectly so. (18:28)
  • Dropping physics entirely, he goes on to say about the agency that involves a first person perspective, that consciousness of ourselves is a highly social product. (19:59)

Where Rovelli has gone wrong:

Physicists are an inherent part of the physics; mathematicians are an inherent part of the mathematics. Computer programs illustrate this: computer programs illustrate the essential (but hidden) part that physicists play in physics, and the essential (but hidden) part that mathematicians play in mathematics:

In order to make a system work, computer programs require not just symbols for equations and numbers: computer programs require symbols that represent logical connectives (e.g. IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN). Logical connectives are an essential requirement for a moving system.

The reason that physicists can correctly represent the world with equations and numbers is that the physicists themselves are playing the part of the necessary logical connectives, but this fact is hidden because the physicists don’t notice that they themselves are an inherent part of the system of representation:

  • The equations and number symbols represent one aspect of the world.
  • The physicists represent the “hidden” aspect of the world, the necessary logical-connective aspect of the world, the non-measurable aspect of the world that can only be represented by the symbols IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN.

Forum Moderator
(continued)

Rovelli, and others, have failed to notice that logical connective symbols are required in order to represent a moving system: number symbols, and equations with delta symbols, are not sufficient to represent a moving system.

So, contrary to Rovelli’s (and other’s) convoluted and inadequate explanations of a world where free will (and consciousness) are unnecessary, consciousness and free will are the necessary logical connectives required for a moving system.

Consciousness and free will are high-level developments of the necessary logical connectives required for a moving system.

The following is a symbolic representation of how logical connectives would be used in computer programs to represent conscious knowledge of the current surrounding situation:

(category1=number1 IS TRUE) AND (category2=number2 IS TRUE) AND (category3=number3 IS TRUE)

The following is a symbolic representation of how logical connectives would be used in computer programs to represent the free will number jumps that need to be taken in response to this conscious knowledge of the current surrounding situation:

IF
(category1=number1 IS TRUE) AND (category2=number2 IS TRUE) AND (category3=number3 IS TRUE)
THEN
assign number4 to category4

To represent a moving system, then as well as equations and numbers, logical connective symbols (like IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN) are required. These logical connective symbols are necessary because equations and number symbols alone can’t cut the mustard.

Forum Moderator
Re “Can we create a physical description of agency?”:

We can model agency, using the sort of symbols used in computer programs, as well as the usual categories/ relationships and numbers. But we can’t physically measure agency:

What is measurable in the world? Categories/ relationships between categories, like relative position and mass, are measurable, and the result is a number.

But what is not measurable are the connections between the categories and/or numbers:

  • mathematical operators ( +, -, /, x ) and equals signs ( = )
  • logical connectives ( IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, THEN ).

Consciousness, the “IS TRUE” aspect of the world, is as unmeasurable as what lies behind the “+” aspect of the world.

Free will, the “THEN” (1) aspect of the world, is also as unmeasurable as what lies behind the “+” aspect of the world.

……………………………………………..

  1. THEN means: after that; next; afterwards.

Forum Moderator
At a fundamental level, the world is differentiated. Therefore, in order to operate as a system, the world must differentiate. I.e. in order to operate as a system, the world must distinguish, discern difference in, its own categories (like mass and position) and its own numbers that apply to these categories.

In other words, there is necessarily a knowledge/ information aspect at the foundations of the world.

This knowledge/ information aspect can only be symbolically represented via the use of the type of logical connective symbols used in computer programs (like IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, THEN). E.g. the following symbols:

(category = number) IS TRUE
or
(category1=number1 IS TRUE) AND (category2=number2 IS TRUE)

represent knowledge/ information about categories and numbers.

However, physicists are seemingly not concerned about such seemingly small details.

And instead, physicists seem to believe that the whole world can be represented in terms of symbols for categories, numbers, mathematical operators, and equals signs.

Physicists seem to have a strong belief that no logical connective symbols are necessary to represent the world, and that is seemingly why they get themselves in terrible trouble trying to explain consciousness and free will.

The world is differentiated, into different categories (like mass and position) and different numbers. Therefore, in order to operate, the world necessarily differentiates/ discriminates/ distinguishes, discerns difference:

At a foundational level, the world possesses a knowledge/ information/ consciousness aspect.

When are physicists going to wake up to the fact that their dumb-mathematical-system/ dumb-particles model of the world always was a load of rubbish?

I have a fierce criticism of physicists and philosophers:

When are philosophers and physicists going to wake up to the fact that the conclusion that they drew, of a consciousness emerging ex nihilo, based on the dumb-mathematical-system/ dumb-particles model of the world, always was a load of rubbish?

    Lorraine Ford
    (continued)

    Also, physicists can’t give a proper account of number movement: they only have a model of number change (for numbers that apply to categories of information) due to law-of-nature relationship, IF other numbers (that apply to other categories of information) change.

    So, my second fierce criticism of philosophers and physicists is:

    They shouldn’t kid themselves that they could model free will, because they can’t yet give a proper account of why the world would ever move, or continue to move.

      Lorraine Ford
      I hasten to add that physicists are great people who are good at what they do. Thanks to their terrific experimental and theoretical work, acquiring and spreading knowledge of how the world operates, we can now send spacecraft to Mars, and do all sorts of other amazing things. And they don’t need non-physicist amateurs telling them how to do physics. However, they seem to be lost when it comes to modelling consciousness and free will, which don’t seem to fit into the usual picture of how the world works.

      So, this is the way I see it:

      There are no relationship connections between matter. Laws of nature are not relationships between matter, but relationships between the inherent compositional aspects of matter, where the mass and position categories are examples of the inherent compositional aspects of matter.

      These categories, which are represented by special symbols, are not information about a separately existing matter: these categories are the constituents of matter.

      These categories (like mass and position) are measurable; but these categories are also integral parts of the relationships, where the other parts of the relationships (which would be represented by symbols like: + - ÷ × and =) are not measurable.

      So, matter has an internal infrastructure which is both measurable and unmeasurable.

      Similarly, consciousness and free will are infrastructure aspects of the world that are not measurable. Consciousness and free will are infrastructure aspects that can only be represented by statements constructed using logical connective symbols like IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN.

      Consciousness and free will also interconnect measurable categories, but consciousness and free will are more about the particular place and time numbers that apply to the categories, than to the categories themselves. This particular place and time number aspect of the world can’t be handled by the law of nature relationships.

      The consciousness and free will aspects of the world would be represented by the following type of statement:

      IF
      (category1=number1 IS TRUE) AND (category2=number2 IS TRUE) AND (category3=number3 IS TRUE)
      THEN
      assign number4 to category4

      The laws of nature are represented by equations: strings of symbols where only some of the symbols represent measurable aspects of the world. Symbols like + - ÷ × and = , used in the equations, represent non-measurable aspects of the world.

      While the symbols for the categories (like mass or position) in the equations represent measurable aspects of the world, the mathematical operators and equals signs in the equations represent non-measurable mathematical aspects of the world, non-measurable mathematical aspects that interconnect the measurable aspects of the world.

      In a similar way, consciousness and free will are non-measurable aspects of the world that interconnect the measurable aspects of the world.

      What is different about consciousness and free will, compared to the mathematical aspects of the world, is that the mathematical aspects only deal with the categories, while consciousness and free will deal with specific numbers that apply to specific categories.

        Lorraine Ford
        (continued)

        Consciousness and free will are about the specific numbers that apply to specific categories, while the cruder, law-of-nature mathematical aspects of the world are about relationships between the categories.

        So, consciousness and free will are not so much about the high drama of: “Will I stay, or will I go?” or: “Will I choose a carrot or a green pepper from the fridge?”. Consciousness and free will are most often about the everyday fine motor control of the position category e.g., the position of the limbs and body.

        Consciousness and free will working together allow fine motor control of the position of the limbs and body, but the crude law-of-nature mathematical relationships between categories do not allow fine motor control of the position of the limbs and body. The crude, law-of-nature mathematical relationships between categories kick in only if, and when, consciousness and free will jump the numbers for the position category.

        10 days later

        Amelia SK
        What Rovelli says is a whole lot of misguided nonsense. Because according to physicists like Rovelli:

        • The world we see is a consequence of both lawful and random processes, that physicists represent with equations.
        • Free will/ “deciding”/ “acting”/ “computation”/ “information processing” is also just a consequence of these lawful and random processes, that physicists represent with equations.

        In other words, according to physicists like Rovelli:

        • Free will/ “deciding”/ “acting”/ “computation”/ “information processing” is just a superficial description of normal aspects of the world.
        • So, there is absolutely nothing different about free will/ “deciding”/ “acting”/ “computation”/ “information processing”.

        So let Rovelli and his ilk try to show on-the-spot free will/ “deciding”/ “acting”/ “computation”/ “information processing” (i.e. something representable by IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN statements) emerging from the lawful and random processes that that physicists represent with equations.

        He can’t show this because IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN represent more basic aspects of mathematics than equations do.

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