Information As Fuel: Future Directions

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Broughton Hall panel discussion on the future of using information as fuel. Featuring: Jorge Tabanera Bravo ⁠ Zina Cinker Natalia Ares ⁠ Susanne Still⁠ Federico Fedele⁠ Sofia Sevitz Maximilian Lock⁠

Keywords: IAF Information Fuel TWCF

Lorraine Ford

“… what does it mean for a for a machine to learn or for a system to learn and process information?”, Natalia Ares (21:00 in the video)

The truly absurd and obvious mistake, that Natalia Ares makes, is in seeming to think that man-made machines could be things that learn and process something that she calls “information”.

When talking about something that inherently possesses information, one would usually be talking about the possession of high-level analytical interconnected overview information about a situation:

One wouldn't be talking about the low-level disconnected granular information that particles or molecules might possess about their own relative position or energy, or their own immediate surroundings.
And one wouldn't be talking about the man-made physical symbols that are used to represent human consciousness and knowledge, e.g. the so-called “information” that might be found in computer systems (1).

Actually, it is only people (and other high-level living things) who can inherently possess high-level analytical interconnected overview knowledge/ information about a situation, e.g. the relevant situation might be the movement of small glass beads in a particular environment, that is studied in a scientific experiment.

And people can take advantage of that conscious knowledge/ information to build machines, and write symbolic computer programs, that might perform useful work for human beings.

But the machines themselves have no knowledge: no overview knowledge, and no knowledge of what the man-made symbols (1) are supposed to represent.

When are people like Dr Natalia Ares going to wake up and stop talking gibberish about man-made machines?

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The man-made physical symbols, that represent the information in human consciousness, might consist of special arrangements of ink on paper; or the man-made physical symbols might consist of special arrangements of sound waves in the air; or the man-made physical symbols might consist of special arrangements of voltages, circuits and transistors in computers.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
The term “information” is bandied around a lot, e.g. by the panel. But invariably, no one seems able to explain what they mean by the term as it applies to the real world, especially the low-level world of molecules and particles. This is big problem, isn’t it?

Without being able to articulate what they mean by the term “information”, the whole subject seems a bit woo-woo, i.e. a subject with no scientific basis.

So, this is what I’m saying “information” is:

The aspects of the world, that are represented by equations and numbers, are not sufficient to make a viable system; equations and numbers can only be used to represent relationships in a system.

Equations and numbers can’t be used to represent the necessary systemic aspects of the world.

The necessary systemic aspects of the world are symbolically represented by statements that include the following types of logical connective symbols: IF, AND, OR, IS TRUE, and THEN.

To represent a viable system requires not only the aspects that are symbolically represented by equations and numbers, but the aspects that are represented by logical connective symbols.

These necessary systemic aspects of the world are also described by the following word symbols: “information”/ “consciousness”/ “knowledge” and “agency”/ “creativity”/ “free will”.

Obviously, this is a very different analysis of the nature of the world, but the old equations-and numbers-paradigm, together with the old equations-and-numbers warriors, have had their day. There is new picture of life and the world emerging; there is a realisation that new metaphors are needed to explain life, as was beautifully explained by British science writer Philip Ball in his recent Aeon essay (1).

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https://aeon.co/essays/we-need-new-metaphors-that-put-life-at-the-centre-of-biology We are not machines. Welcome to the new, post-genomic biology: a transformative era in need of fresh metaphors to understand how life works. By Philip Ball, 12 July 2024.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
(continued)

The only aspects of the world that are ever measured are the categories, e.g. the relative position and velocity categories that are relevant to the Maxwell’s demon thought experiment. When a category is measured, you get a number.

But, given the above way of looking at “information”, one would conclude that information can’t be measured, and that information doesn’t do work: it is agency (e.g. Maxwell’s demon’s agency) that can do work.

Information can’t be measured:

While relative position is a category that could potentially be measured, and velocity is a category that could potentially be measured, information is a thing that can’t be measured because information is not a category. The relevant on-the-spot low-level information about a low-level Maxwell’s demon-type situation would be symbolically represented in the form of a statement like:

(relative position= number1) AND (velocity= number2) IS TRUE.

The above symbolic statement represents a conscious analysis and collation of knowledge. The above statement does not represent a thing that can be measured. I.e. information can’t be measured.

Information doesn’t do work: it is agency (e.g. Maxwell’s demon’s agency) that can do work:

While the relevant on-the-spot low-level information about a low-level Maxwell’s demon-type situation would be symbolically represented in the form of a statement like:

(relative position= number1) AND (velocity= number2) IS TRUE,

this statement just represents passive information about a situation; the statement does not represent any movement in response to this passive information about a situation.

Any free-agent movement, in response to this passive information about the situation, would be the only thing that could potentially do work. E.g. a change of his relative position (by the Maxwell’s demon free-agent) might be his response to the passive information about the situation, and this change of relative position would be represented in the following type of way:

IF (relative position= number1) AND (velocity= number2) IS TRUE, THEN (relative position= number3).

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Human beings represent the world using special man-made symbols e.g. letters, words, numbers, mathematical operator symbols, logical connective symbols, binary digit symbols. But the number of symbols, e.g. binary digits, that human beings would need to symbolically represent any particular consciousness/ knowledge/ information says absolutely nothing about the actual nature of that consciousness/ knowledge/ information.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
I should add that, in the Maxwell’s demon thought experiment, Maxwell’s demon is looking at the speed, direction, and 3D position relative to the 3D position of the plane of a door between the chambers, of a gas molecule that he is focussing on.

In order to open the door for the faster molecules, and close the door for the slower molecules, the demon needs to change his own 3D position (e.g. the position of his arm) in order to physically manipulate the door, or to press a button to open and close the door.

Also, light particles coming from both the molecules and the door, would have to interact with Maxwell’s demon’s eyes and be analysed by the demon in order for him to consciously distinguish the door from the background, and distinguish the gas molecule from the background, and in order for him to estimate the speed, direction and position of the gas molecule that he has previously distinguished from the background.

All this brainpower would take time and use Maxwell’s demon’s energy. Also, the demon’s arm movements, in order to open or close the door, would also take time and use the demon’s energy.

Obviously, the Maxwell’s demon thought experiment is an idealisation, and nothing like what happens in the real world.

Lorraine Ford

Lorraine Ford
No one seems able to explain what they mean by the term “information” as it applies to the real world, especially the low-level world of molecules and particles.

Yet, I would have thought that it would be necessary to define/ describe/ model what one means by “information”, before one starts trying to claim that this “information” thing could be like a fuel.

But the claim is seemingly not that this “information” can be used to provide a force that can move an object over a distance.

The claim is seemingly that this “information” can be used to move an object over a distance, but with no force or energy involved (i.e. outside the law of nature relationships).

But according to my way of defining/ describing/ modelling “information”, several comments back:

It is not the passive information/ knowledge/ consciousness of a situation that can change the position of a low-level object,
It is agency/ free will/ creativity (i.e. the RESPONSE to this passive information about a situation) that can change the position of a low-level object, in the same way that “randomness” in effect changes the position of a low-level object with no force or energy involved (i.e. outside the law of nature relationships).