Georgina Woodward he mind body problem
The mind body problem
To be aware of anything requires the observer, either exist as a material object or a specialized part of it, the whole having other functions too. Or be generated by a material object. An immaterial consequence of the activity of necessary parts . the observer needs both the necessary structure and the structure, provided with energy to perform work, it’s function. This is as much an energetic happening as a static material structure, A human organism does more than just the functions of an observer. There is no specialized part. The whole peripheral nervous system, CNS, all sense organs and internal receptors, inside and on surface of the body.
The humans sensory system can’t survive alone. It needs the rest of the body for maintenance and protection, while it increases survival of the body and its kind in the following ways. Internal monitoring improved homeostasis by influence on behaviour and within the external environment avoidance of hazards and predation, location of resources and mates. Connected to the musculature, voluntary and visceral, and the endocrine-hormone (feelings) system. Whether included or not depends on whether one wants to include responses to awareness as part of awareness or not
The Multiverse and Existential Scale | Robert Lawrence Kuhn
Georgina Woodward
Human primary senses
Sound requires matter for it to be transmitted, usually air. “in space no one can hear you scream’ from Alien films franchise.
Electromagnetic radiation, including visible light, and other wavelengths; these according to, the alternative explanatory framework, presented, require the void between and within matter and fermion particles not be empty space but a base (like base of a soup.)that is best thought of as part of the environment rather than part of the identity of the photon particle; which sympathetically vibrates with the photon, and can interfere with itself if divided and recombined, and the disturbance caused can effect the photon’s location. This is the situation for any particle or object small and without sufficient mass to be Influenced by quantum scale effects. This excludes most macroscopic and astronomical objects. Having a mass that is also insignificant with regard to gravity. any effect on it or of it on other matter, probably unnoticed because of the happenings in the quantum scale environment.
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Georgina Woodward
How accurate is awareness? We have awareness of an external and internal environment because of sensory receipt and processing of the sensory information into a partial, subjective, relative semblance of the source (material, matter, object) with variable likeness to the source that at exists and where it exists in space, according to;
1. excess input to the sense without sufficient filtration may distract/overwhelm concentration
2. The quality and amount of information available. 2b. How recently acquired.
3. How good ‘would be observer’ and observed are, at receiving and processing sensory information 3b. Type and number of sensors
4. How good is the ‘would be’ observed is at Concealment, i.e. How good is the 'would be’ observed is at avoiding detection.
5. How good it is at minimizing the sensory Information availability to locate and or identify it, and it’s possible vulnerabilities. Hiding to leave minimal clues.
6. How good is the would be observer at hunting in general?
7. Has the ‘would be’ observer learned and developed the skill of finding creatures of the observed’s kind in particular. is it a specialist hunter?
7b. Do they have a predator /prey relationship in nature, that has co-evolved.
8. How conducive is the environment to concealment, camouflage, distraction, misdirection, avoiding contact using genuine fierceness, and bravado. How much the observed have changed form during the observation period, the attention devoted to the subject, observed in the accuracy of semblance drawn from memory.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
You have never even been able to define what you mean by the word "consciousness". lol
You merely assume consciousness, and then start quibbling about its efficacy. lol.
Consciousness is a pitiful and inadequate thing, according to you. In effect, what you are claiming is that observers can't observe, hunters can't hunt, and physicists can't do physics. lol.
First off, before you start quibbling about consciousness, define what you even mean by the word “consciousness”.
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Lorraine Ford
I am using the word consciousness to mean awareness of things/matter; mostly materials and objects; and energy; changes, happenings, processes. This includes both internal and external awareness.
I have suggested that internal awareness aids behavioural homeostasis.
Homeostasis is important for correct functioning of the organism or device. External awareness increases fitness by aiding survival. This enables location and identification of resources needed for maintenance of life, mates for reproduction and to avoid hazards and predation.
Response to awareness may be best included as it is used as an indicator of consciousness (For practicality). The endocrine hormone system by which feelings are generated and musculature generating movement. Brain scans of ‘locked in’ paralyzed persons has shown activity consistent with consciousness despite severe disability and lack of bodily response. So in theory a noticeable response is not necessary for consciousnesses to occur. i don’t consider mere response to be consciousness. it is an emergent consequence of structure that enables it. But not simpler constituent materials, How is this possible? Are we mere receivers of consciousness that exists independently of us, in the external environment, and is available to all? This is a question usually asked by those just thinking of consciousness as external awareness. Thought of as some kind of signal and different from material reality itself i.e. not it.
There is argument about whether the brain is sufficient to produce consciousness. i would say one cannot be conscious without the means to normally detect what you are conscious of. Meditative practice can involve blocking of sensory inputs either physically or mentally with-the aim of generating an altered state of consciousness. (awareness of one’s self and the world outside. including others.
I don't think a brain is enough although the majority of processing occurs there. We need something to be aware of and means of detection, hence the sense organs, receptors, peripheral nervous system working with the central nervous system at least. (see earlier writing on response) Without sensory input the brain can still produce experience such as dreams and imagination or flights of fancy. The difference is, the brain independent input roots it’s immaterial product in the independent material reality that has had existence, while not being exactly it.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
"Awareness" is just another word for "consciousness".
I think you are saying that consciousness/ awareness is just another particle interaction, i.e. something that can't be distinguished from any other particle interaction.
There is no actual difference between consciousness and non-consciousness, according to you.
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Lorraine Ford
I have given a comprehensive reply, saying how I am using the word 'consciousness', that you said I had not done. If you read that, there should be no doubt what I mean.
Includes; how it comes about. What it is, its function, for a human being. What is and isn't nessessary to consider as involved in it etc.
Google search of awareness -dictionary, Oxford languages; awareness; 'knowledge or perception of a situation or fact. Or concern about and well-informed interest in a particular situation or development.'
'Awareness' may or may not be a synonym for consciousness depending on the context and how the term 'consiousnesss' is being used. If awareness comes about by means other than direct sensory witnessing, it can not be regarded as consciousness. E.g. reading a book of facts can improve your awareness of the current information available about the subject.
awareness in this example is not consciousness. 'Memory' and 'Learning' are also words to do with awareness but are not concsciousness as I am using the word.
Georgina Woodward
You have not given a comprehensive reply, you have merely looked in a dictionary. lol.
You have not distinguished consciousness from mere particle or chemical interactions and processes.
Very clearly, according to you, consciousness is the same as particle or chemical interactions and processes. There is no difference between the two, according to you.
And by the way, no one seriously believes in the "emergence" of consciousness any more: that is why many people are looking to panpsychism.
Lorraine Ford I used a dictionary definition of the word 'awareness'. to be sure Iwas using an accepted meaning. I explained in much detail , in my own words, how I was using the word 'consciousness'. I did not use a dictionary for this but specified how it is used by me.
there are different stages in formation of conSsciosness ,swhich i have previously mentioned at various times. Just considsering the primary human senses of sight and hearing. A transmission of photon particles (Non fermions) by trasverse waves in space filling substance from the source object that emittedor reflected them or transmission of longitudinal waves throuhgh most usually air. Reciept by sense organ, focussing of input onto 'sheet-like' specialized phoreceptor cells,which are activated by the required frequency at the necessary intensity. Depending on the particular type of cell it may send anelectrical impulse called an action potential along the connected nerve, or inhibit a default action potntiaL that would be sent wirhout the inhibition.Sound waves arriving at the ![ear mechanically disturb the smallear bones and cause the distuerbance of the eardrum.this vibvratesthew fluid beyond the ear drumwhich is pickedup by hairlike cells which respond by sending nerve impulses. Sight and sound generated nerve impulses are processed by specialised regions of the brain ,which cab will decide if the input is possibly significant and worth becoming conscious awareness. It may even without the person's awareness decide to filter out the input and not proccess it if unimportant, like the ticking of a clock. The processes by which impulses in neurons are generated, sorted and analysed is not a simple particle or chemical interaction.There are many steps.
Re. your last paragraph-The crowd isn't always right.I used a dictionary definition of the word 'awareness'. to be sure Iwas using an accepted meaning. I explained in much detail , in my own words, how I was using the word 'consciousness'. I did not use a dictionary for this but specified how it is used by me.
there are different stages in formation of conSsciosness ,swhich i have previously mentioned at various times. Just considsering the primary human senses of sight and hearing. A transmission of photon particles (Non fermions) by trasverse waves in space filling substance from the source object that emittedor reflected them or transmission of longitudinal waves throuhgh most usually air. Reciept by sense organ, focussing of input onto 'sheet-like' specialized phoreceptor cells,which are activated by the required frequency at the necessary intensity. Depending on the particular type of cell it may send anelectrical impulse called an action potential along the connected nerve, or inhibit a default action potntiaL that would be sent wirhout the inhibition.Sound waves arriving at the ![ear mechanically disturb the smallear bones and cause the distuerbance of the eardrum.this vibvratesthew fluid beyond the ear drumwhich is pickedup by hairlike cells which respond by sending nerve impulses. Sight and sound generated nerve impulses are processed by specialised regions of the brain ,which cab will decide if the input is possibly significant and worth becoming conscious awareness. It may even without the person's awareness decide to filter out the input and not proccess it if unimportant, like the ticking of a clock. The processes by which impulses in neurons are generated, sorted and analysed is not a simple particle or chemical interaction.There are many steps.
Re. your last paragraph-The crowd isn't always right.
Awareness gained by reading a book or other media should not just be called consciousness.
Normal. natural sensory processing , produces a semblance of reality from sensory data that has at some time beenemitted fromsources existing in the rea-world. MEDIA OF ANY KIND ,books, newspapers, video,TV, films,comuter games lead to generation of a semblance of reality which has the medium as the source of sensory input. It may be a quite realistic copy of realityor coplete fantasy or flight of fancy. It could be called manufactured orun-natural mediated consciousness. If AI is able to control its internal environment and homeostasis and becomes aware of its external environment ,a device or robot using it is best designated as having artificial (Make-Model) consciousness. To recognize that these devices do not process input inthe same way. So can not be conscious inthe same way.Likewise animal consciousness should be species specific. recognising differences in nervous systems, behaviour ,habitats-giving dirfferent inputs and processing.Animal (species) consciousness.
Georgina,
Your reams of verbiage are no substitute for an actual explanation or an actual definition. You seemingly do not realise that you have not explained consciousness or defined consciousness or distinguished consciousness from chemistry.
Also, despite 50 years of people wishing and hoping that “emergence” would be a productive idea, this hasn’t proved to be the case. I guess that you are one of the true believers, still grimly hanging on to a fake idea.
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Georgina Woodward
Animal (type or abbreviated taxonomy to identify, species) consciousness.
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Lorraine Ford
I mention, the physics of waves and movement of electric charge, and the existense of specialized mechanical systems for transmission of sound, that is not 'just chemistry.'
Emergence is not a fake idea but fact, whether or not you believe it.
e,g, egg shell, aeroplane wing.
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Georgina Woodward
"Emergence" is a failed idea, that is all about mystery and magic. And that is why no one thinks in terms of magical emergence anymore; instead they consider the necessary construction steps. These necessary construction steps can't be thought of as "emergence".
Consciousness is the necessary knowledge aspect of the real-world system, necessary from the foundations of the world onwards, because existence does not imply knowledge of existence.
The existence of the particular and distinct categories, numbers, and relationships that underlie the real-world system does not imply knowledge of their existence.
These categories, numbers, and relationships are what identify the world: everything from particles to trees is identified, not all at once as whole particles or whole trees, but by their categories, numbers, and relationships in interactions.
With regard to human consciousness, people inevitably notice their personal inner feelings and sensations. But consciousness is not about the feelings, sensations, colours, emotions or thoughts: these are merely the forms in which conscious knowledge, of oneself and one’s surrounding world, manifests itself.
And, as noted above, the consciousness aspect of the world started small, with consciousness of the basic categories, numbers and relationships that underlie the real-world system. Human-level consciousness did not spring fully developed into existence ex-nihilo, just like human bodies did not spring fully developed into existence ex-nihilo: they were both built up out of smaller component parts. However, people have mistakenly tended to think that consciousness is either a suddenly-appearing high-level consciousness OR nothing at all.
Re "Why is there anything at all, why not nothing?":
Seemingly, there was no all-knowing consciousness at the beginning of the world, there was only knowledge of what had been created, i.e. the low-level categories, numbers and relationships, and the ability to further analyse that. There was no grand plan for the world, there was only the freedom to create, at the foundation of the real-world system.
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Lorraine Ford
I don't think you understand the concept of emergence There's no mystery or magic involved. Function/ being able to do something in particular is possible because of a particular structure. Two origami sculptures are made. One becomes a ball. The other a bird. Borh are made from a single piede of paper. No difference in chemical or material constituents. The difference is in how the are folded.The strutures made by folding. There isn't one kind of paper that knows how to be ball-like, another like a bird.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
I think that you don't understand the concept of "emergence" as it is, and was, actually used, particularly in relation to the idea that consciousness "emerges", e.g. from computer systems, a laughable idea which was around only a short while ago. If I remember correctly, I think that you yourself believed, or still believe, that consciousness "emerges" from computer systems.
Nothing emerges from a piece of paper: people create/ manufacture origami birds or balls from a piece of paper. It is a misuse of language, to say that a bird or a ball "emerges" from the paper, as though no human agency was involved. However, I note that you are an expert in the misuse of language.
Lorraine Ford
In science the word 'emergence' has a particlar meaning. Which is different from every day use in commom parlance. It doesn't mean coming out of something. I've tried to explain to you, it needs to be used correctly for the context in which it is being used. It has to do with the function of a structure, however formed, via a natural non life process or manufactured by an organism, the same function is not identified in the condstituent chemicals alone.
Georgina Woodward
Georgina,
You are using the word “emergence” to mean “miraculous emergence ex nihilo”.
As I said, at every level, there is no miraculous "emergence", there are only a series of creative construction steps, undertaken by a conscious agent doing the construction. (The deterministic laws of nature don’t construct anything at all, because they are merely relationships which slightly constrain the construction outcomes.)
New function doesn’t miraculously emerge ex nihilo like you seem to religiously believe: new function has been constructed.
But you clearly believe in magic and miracles: miracles of emergence. E.g. your belief that consciousness is a thing that spontaneously, miraculously “emerges” ex nihilo from the "condstituent chemicals" (sic) of both computers and living matter. lol.
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Lorraine Ford
A paperball, origami, or scrunched up, will roll if placed on a slope, A piece of paper won't. The ball does not require the constituent molecules to have a rolling property because the rollling is enabeled by the structure of the ball-how the paper is arranged .
Consider-A stalactite fomed over thousands of years by the dripping of mineral rich water. It hangs from the cave ceiling. It's hanging, it's hardnesss and pointyness. makes it unlike the constituent atoms that it contains. This is not miraculous, or magic. The stalactite could be used as a projectile if broken off , wheras just mineral rich water can't .,
In my previous writing, that you have dismisssed, I stated that a device cannot have human consciousness because it does not have a human nervous system and does not process information input inthe same way. It does not have a body with endocrune-hormone sytem (feelings sytem) So cannot respond exactly as a person does. A device that seems conscious-like could be described as artificial (make-model) consciousness. As the term AI is used, while developers recognise the processing happening is very different from human intelligence,