Mr. Craft,

I'm taking the liberty of posting this to the thread for your essay as well as to the thread for mine, because I'm not sure whether or how often you check back on the thread of my essay where you posed the excellent question, "What is the duration of Present Time?" I'd like to add to the reply which I offered earlier, which I fear was not very helpful. If you have a deep and burning desire to understand the concept of time, the best advice I can give you is to read the book 'The End of Time,' which was written by Julian Barbour and published in 1999. It is now available in paperback. While I don't necessarily agree with all of Mr. Barbour's thinking, I find his book to be an excellent source, a veritable treasure trove, of information about time.

Relevant to your question about the duration of the present time, for example, Barbour writes, ". . . Einstein's approach to relativity led him to an explicit theory of simultaneity but an implicit theory of duration. It is the latter that is important for this book, but it never got properly treated in relativity. . . . Poincare's 1898 paper showed that [the theory of time] must answer two main questions: how simultaneity is to be defined, and what duration is. Associated with the second question is another, almost as important: what is a clock? Because of his approach, Einstein answered only the first question at the fundamental level." (pp.133-135 of 'The End of Time,' hardback edition.)

The best news is that Barbour apparently is about to publish an eagerly anticipated update to 'The End of Time.' (See the essay about him at the main FQXi Community page.)

Good luck with your reading!

jcns

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Lets put it another way?..can you travel anywhere without Time? can anything in the Universe, move from one location to another, without the concept of Tine ;)

Think hard about it!

Mr. Valletta,

Thank you for your comments. In fact, I *have* thought quite hard about it! You'll find some of the results of all that hard thinking, such as they are, here: http://smithjcn.googlepages.com/time

Enjoy! Comments thereupon of course welcome.

jcns

Mr. Leshan,

I have read your essay from last year's essay competition, as you suggested. It seems that your ideas about time and about the notion of time travel are so dramatically different from mine that I'm at a loss even to know where to begin commenting on your proposed method of time travel.

To my own way of thinking (as explained in my current essay) time travel, were it possible, would entail somehow traveling from one particular time to another particular time. Inasmuch as we seem not to share a common notion or understanding of what constitutes a particular time, however, I fear that there is not much left beyond that major disconnect to discuss. Perhaps it would help me understand your thinking if you would explain your concept of what constitutes a particular time. Thanks.

jcns

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Well ,

Dear Mr Smith,

In your papper on google ,here is some words ...."

nature is telling us that time and space are equivalent; time becomes space; they should be measured in the same units." [Feynman's italics.]

There I don't understanD ,the time becomes Space ????

I need a concrete explaination about the general relativity and its ten equations .

I rather d like say ,the space becomes mass ....the Dark matter .

On the other sisde ,The dark energy don't exist in my opinion .The expansion is just a step of perception ,correlated with our evolution .Thus the infinity is just behind our walls .

Sincerely

Steve

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You know Mr Smith ,I liked a lot your essay and your skills,this thread is one of the most relevant with your discussions with Mr Jonhstone .

Personnally ,

I don't understand why people want travel in Time .Or to find some datas about that .

If our entropy ,this creator and its multiples names ....has created the mass in a space with a time constant .Thus our rule is to accept our limits .

The fact to want travel in Time has no sense for this equation .

Even for the future ,because we must accept this constant of evolution where he builds in fact .

If we take,for exemple, an actual polarised system like us ,a human ,thus adapted with its environment since 15 billions years .

Let's imagine now a travel in the future with our characteristics ,we are going to be in an other system where the system are more evolved thus our adfaptation will chaotic ,thus it's not necessary and furthermore dangerous ,that's why for the ultim entropy ,it's impossible .It's not in the fundamentals of the ultim equation in my opinion ,thus it's not his choice in fact .

Thus it's a lost of time.

Respectfully

Steve

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It's the same problem with the deseases ,when we accelerate their evolutions ,it's chaotic like actually on Earth and the factors of mutation .

Some human systems ,unfortunally ,accelerate their evolutions.....

The time is really a constant to harmonize in my opinion .

Regards

Steve

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I would like to refer back to my post of Sep. 22, 2009 where I talked about the lack of proofs of the impossibility of time travel and perhaps state more strongly why Mr Smith's main essay premise is important. The statement that "a particular time is identically equivalent to, and is completely defined by, and only by, a particular configuration of the universe" *does* supply a potential proof and falsifiability, as Mr Smith has mentioned. The essential point is the fundamental difference between this model, with the equally important additional condition that any "particular configuration" only exists *once*, and the "block spacetime" model of General Relativity. In GR, the configurations (objects/sub-systems) are considered to be moving through a "pre-existing" spacetime with evolving 4 vectors, one coordinate of which is "time". The Einstein equations can then allow a metric solution which enables an object's trajectory F(x,y,z,t) to "transform" to a "past" coordinate frame. In Mr Smith's model, this cannot happen as there is no "pre-existing "spacetime".

The GR timeloop, wormhole etc solutions of course rely on there being a "time" coordinate. Remove this and you are just left eg, with a space-like loop, which can make sense in the context of some known relativistic effects. There seems no doubt however that, as I stated very early on in this comment thread, the world cannot be described with only 3 dimensions. The question is, what exactly is the nature of the 4th dimensional quantity? This relates directly to Paul Valetta's questions.. "can you travel anywhere without Time? can anything in the Universe, move from one location to another, without the concept of Time". I think it is very telling that he uses the word "concept" in his second question. We seem to be trapped in the confines of our own use of the word TIME, a la John Wheeler! I think we are also trapped by the "ingrained" concept of "time" that our reliance on clocks has imparted, so that we believe clocks are actually measuring something we *call* time. Clocks are just physical systems we have designed with reference to cyclical processes (Earth's rotation, Caesium atom oscillations), to give us information about those same *spatial* cyclical processes, ie spatial displacement.

In response to Paul I would say that, yes, we need to be able to define what it is that "allows" motion and that can fully describe an "event", to use conventional terminology. All I am saying is that it should be defined in terms of the only things we have, space, motion and mass/energy. Motion from place to place can be described as simply a re-distribution of energy. If the motion is inertial it will be symmetric with any other inertial frame with the usual effects caused by relative motion, but no "time dilation" effects. If the motion is accelerated or spatially asymmetric, an asymmetry results in the subsequent frames which results in the effect called time dilation, but which I think should be reinterpreted only in terms of the space/length "contraction" which is also an implicit effect, but one which tends to be overlooked in most explanations.

Mr Smith has quoted Feynman's belief that time quantities probably should be spatial.."time is space". There have been other prominent physicists who have also hinted at this. Stephen Hawking in "A Brief History Of Time" (I think?) also talks about converting time to space (using Wick rotations in the complex plane), to simplify equations. These solutions can then be converted back to time *if convenient*. As previously discussed here, an "evolving configuration space"(ECS) model could use some differential between vectors in a configuration space where the 4th vector may represent relative motion/velocity? Think of it firstly in conventional terms where motion along a particular spatial dimension, say X axis, is inversely proportional to motion along the Y or YZ axes and motion in "time" seems to be inversely proportional to motion in the 3D "bulk" vector space. So that being static equates to maximum "motion" in time (at c?) and maximum motion in space and/or velocity at or near c equates to being static in time. In the "ECS", the 4th vector could be considered to be orthogonal to the usual 3D's when maximal, with an angle "measuring" the relative motion at other velocity differentials?

Buzz's question..."What is the duration of Present Time?" is absolutely a good one! It goes to the heart of our perception of the world and how our consciousness shapes our understanding of reality. We have evolved to "sense"

time durationally and as a continuum. This is somewhat incongruent with the physical laws we use which are based on the world being *discontinuous*, ie quantum in nature. We quantise everything, the very nature of measurement implies that it is quantised. I would agree with Mr Smith that these "senses" are an evolutionary trait, presumably to aid in our survival. In the absence of any sensory input or in the absence of any motion in the world, I believe we would still have the sense of duration, so I don't think we can trust that sense to develop any description of reality. Attempts have been made to also "quantise time", so far, to my knowledge, without success. Peter Lynds may have developed a kind of proof that it can't be done, even in principle! What does this tell us? If we are to believe that nature is inherently discrete (again quantum gravity pending) and that time cannot be quantised, where is time??

Cheers all

At the risk of repeating myself, well said, and thank you, Mr. Johnstone! Your insightful comments are deeply appreciated. You are describing and explaining my ideas much more coherently than I possibly could. I somehow almost have the feeling that you are an "alter ego," and, fortunately, one with a far better grounding in the intricacies of physics.

One thought regarding your final comments about quantizing time: if it is true, as some, including Feynman and others, have suggested, that "time" should be "measured" and/or expressed in units of spacial displacement, and if the Planck length represents a smallest possible measure of displacement, might that somehow lead to a quantization of our ability to describe increments of time?

This is fun and exhilarating stuff, imho. I'd like to think that, collectively, we're zeroing in on a better mousetrap in terms of a better explanation for our observations about our world. I've long been convinced that the currently prevailing conventional way of thinking and talking about time has been an impediment to progress in physics. Replacing it with some sort of relational, Machian alternative almost certainly would be a worthwhile step forward. So damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!

Cheers all, indeed!

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Hi both of you ,

Interesting explainations .

Sorry but Mr Smith I don't understand all ,you use specific unknow words for me .

Mr Johnstone you say "Where is time"

Simply everywhere since the beginning to build and for that a constant of building is essential .

The time don't need to be quantised for me , a constant is a constant like the speed of light .

Without time,any evolution is possible .

Space without time hasn't any motion .Time without space hasn't any rule .

Of course everybody has its own perception of things .

"Feynman's belief that time quantities probably should be spatial.."

I don't agree but it's personal of course .Because we can check the space and not the time simply .

It's more interesting to check the space and that to discover our Universe ,we are voyagers and catalyzers inside a beautiful sphere in evolutuion .

Best Regards

Steve

Mr. Dufourny,

You wrote,"Sorry but Mr Smith I don't understand all ,you use specific unknow words for me ."

What word(s) did you not understand? If possible, I'll try to clarify.

jcns

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Hello dear Mr Smith ,

It's ok I have translated .I understand better your point of vue .

Your special relativity is relevant .

I need time to encircle all in fact ,as it's not my first language ,sometimes I search the real message .That depends the kind of writings .

I evolve fortunally .

Best Regards

Steve

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Steve,

You said..."The time don't need to be quantised for me , a constant is a constant like the speed of light." It should be remembered however that light itself *is* quantized. It consists of photons (quanta) and it is the photons which travel at the speed of light, not necessarily the light "ray" itself. I would ask you how the speed of light is measured? Speed has dimension of time (d/t) and I would say it is measured with the denominator being determined in exactly the same way that we measure time in all cases, by clocks!

ie c = 300,000 km/sec. One second is simply 0.0041666 of 1 degree of the Earth's rotation, nothing more! It (c) is therefore a measure of two relative displacements. We can only ever measure motion with reference to some other motion. If this is not the case and you want to use time, then I would ask you, at what rate does time flow?

Mr Smith raised the excellent question..."if the Planck length represents a smallest possible measure of displacement, might that somehow lead to a quantization of our ability to describe increments of time?" I would say firstly that my overall conclusions about the "disappearance" of time (and everything else?) below the Planck scale can be boiled down to the lack of being able to resolve anything physical at that scale, eg anything smaller than the shortest wavelength (10^-33cm?) cannot be resolved/measured. This means there is no physical observable and certainly no possible spatial displacement that can be used to "quantify" time. Then I would say that, again, the notion of Planck time ie 10^-43sec is also based on a clock reading of a photon travelling the Plack distance, 10^-33cm, while the Earth rotates 10^-43x0.0041666 of a degree, so that we still have only quantized space. We are still only left with the ability to describe increments of spatial displacement.

It is worth noting in this context that there has been some work done in recent years to investigate whether there is/should be a "minimal length", independant of the Planck length. This is motivated by the possible violation of Special Relativity due to Lorentz contraction in quantum field theory implying sub-Planck contraction and therefore a bit of a paradox! Models proposed to address this such as "Deformed Special Relativity" & other modified SR theories are being developed as we speak. Who knows where that will lead, or if it is in fact a problem at all?

These are only my thoughts and, as time has been one of the great mysteries to have troubled the greatest minds for millennia, your description or explanation of time is as good as mine, or anyone's for that matter!!

Cheers

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Mr Smith,

Just thought I would let you know that I have just finished reading the first of the Smolin papers you cited previously and, whilst I think I will need to read it again to fully understand the implications, I believe it does relate to your configuration/time equivalence idea, albeit from a different standpoint. He seems to be talking about the difference between quantum & classical formulations using the full space of possible states & his idea of a finite procedure using only an initial state then evolution only involving a finite set of possible "successor" states, ie a finite sub-space of the total(infinite?) space of all possibilities. This would seem to equate to some extent to the difference I have mentioned between the GR total "block" spacetime of all possible states & your evolving configuration model, where any initial configuration would only have a finite set of possible "successor" configurations.

What I don't quite get from his paper yet, and the reason I want to re-read it, is precisely why time is "necessarily" introduced in his procedure, and even if it is, how it really differs from the usual quantum mechanical use of a time operator on the evolution! The paper does also seem to raise a similar issue to one I have raised previously regarding whether the total space of possible configurations must be infinite or not?

By the way, if you have a spare moment, can I suggest you have a look at a comment (the whole thread is worthwhile!) posted on the discussion thread under Forums titled "Demystifying wave function collapse" initiated by Garret Lisi. The comment is by Gevin Giorbran dated Dec. 23, 2007. Is it just me, or is he describing almost exactly the same type of model as we are? He even seems to talk about the same "tension" between our conscious sense of time & reality being "linear" as a continuum on one hand and reality being quantum, that I have raised previously. He also seems to imply a similar sort of 4th dimensional space that I have (vaguely!) proposed.

Note in particular the fourth paragraph and, eg "this fourth dimensional space is dependent upon change, it is dependent on objects having unique positions relative to other objects"! Not sure what he is really saying about motion though?

Would appreciate your thoughts!

Cheers

Mr. Johnstone,

I'd be more than happy to look at the Lisi thread you mentioned. Thanks for calling it to my attention. Have not heretofore been following it. Could you please be so kind as to provide a direct link to its starting point? (My very cursory scan of the horizon failed to bring it up.) So many threads, so little time. Yikes. Inasmuch as it dates back to Dec '07 and earlier, it will take me a while to get caught up!

Much of my time of late has been devoted merely to staying abreast of the new essays being submitted to the competition, many of which have been very interesting in their own right. Suspect that the pace of submissions may accelerate as the deadline for new submissions draws nearer.

And I'll need to go back and re-read that Smolin paper to refresh my own memory on it before attempting a specific reply to the issues you mention. Just in general, however, yes, I'm intrigued by any rigorously developed schemes in which only one actual "history" of the universe emerges (evolves) as an objective reality from some (arbitrary?) initial state. The Laws/Rules of Nature/Physics apparently dictate the course of this evolution. Our task, as observers of this evolution, is to ferret out those Laws/Rules.

As for why time is "necessarily" introduced, it would be my hope that any "time" introduced in such a scheme would be our much sought after "Machian" relational variety of time rather than the old, traditional, now thoroughly discredited (in my opinion) "clock" time.

Yes, we will always need something which we'll call "time," but it should better reflect the reality of the universe than does clock time, i.e., it should reflect the notion that particular times are defined by particular configurations of the universe and that "the flow of time" consists of the evolution of those configurations. Clock time involving our traditional units of hours, minutes, seconds will continue to be useful for arranging our dinner engagements and organizing our car pools and our general day to day lives, but it will no longer be useful (or at least will not comprise, by default, the "be all and end all" of our notion of time) in our probing of the rules whereby we understand the workings of the universe.

It frustrates me greatly that I've not personally been able to get a handle on what needs to be done to accomplish this goal (my just deserts for a misspent youth and career devoted to studies other than physics). That's why I fervently hope that the Smolins and Barbours and Johnstones of the world will nail this elusive bowl of jello firmly to the wall once and for all, and that this will be done during my lifetime. I do have a sense that some very smart people are zeroing in on it. I remain optimistic. And I believe that, once done, it will allow us to surmount many of the currently intractable puzzles of physics. It's worth the candle.

Cheers

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Dear Roy Johnstone,

On Sept. 29 you wrote: being "linear" as a continuum on one hand and reality being quantum. What sort of continuum are you referring to? Peirce or Hausdorff?

As an engineer I need a Peirce continuum in case of incommensurables and non-linear functions,

see the chapter "How to cope with what is behind Cantor's paradise?" in my new essay.

Regards, Eckard

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Mr Smith,

Direct link to Garret Lisi's "Wave Function Collapse demystified" is -

http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/39

What really got me interested in it was that the very first response was from Dieter Zeh, developer of the theory of "quantum decoherence" !

Cheers

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Eckard,

I am not familiar at all with a "Peirce" continuum, so you are one up on me! The point I was making is simply that our conscious sujective perception of physical processes and of "time passing" is continuous, which is in contrast to experimental observations of the objective world being discontinuous, ie quantum in nature (Quantum Gravity pending?). So it's a bit like a movie with the frames as the quanta (objective), but we only "sense" a continuous image (subjective).

To answer your question more directly, I would say that the continuum I have in mind could be considered to be a "densely ordered" Hausdorff continuum but, as a layman, I would welcome any light you could shed on the application of various classes of continua to these matters!

NB. If you have read all of this discussion thread, you will probably realise that both myself & Mr Smith consider that what we sense as "time passing" is nothing more than the physical change from one relative configuration to another.

Cheers

Mr. Johnstone,

Thank you for the link to the Lisi thread; it does look interesting. I'll plan to wend my way through it from beginning to end, as time allows. I agree that having Dieter Zeh as the first to comment would catch one's eye!

I looked at Gevin Giorbran's post of Dec 23, '07. Yes, he clearly is grappling with some of the same issues we've been discussing. I find myself returning to Barbour's discussion of the Machian Distinguished Simplifier (pp.119-120, TEOT). That's certainly one of the clearest descriptions I've seen of the sort of configuration space that I believe we're striving for.

Then I go back to Barbour's discussion of the Kingfisher (pp. 264-267). Here, Barbour is again addressing some of the sorts of issues raised by Mr. Giorbran. Please look at the last sentence of Giobran's first post of Dec 25, 07 where he writes, "The present configuration of the universe cannot ignore all the equally possible futures and dictate a single future, because the equally possible futures are equally real (and our universe is a sampling of that reality)." Compare this with Barbour's statement, "There are infinitely many possibilities, and they are all there. They must be, since there is a place in Platonia for everything that is logically possible." (p. 267 TEOT) This bears on the issue you've raised ("whether the total space of possible configurations must be infinite or not?") in your post of Sep 29, '09 and elsewhere.

My own intuition on this is that if we succeed in correctly cracking the code of Nature's Laws, any initial state of our configuration space will lead to no more than one objectively real "history" of the universe. Which is not the same as saying that this history need be purely deterministic, per se. But, if I correctly understand Barbour's view, I disagree with his assertion that there must be a place for "everything that is logically possible." This requirement to have a place for everything logically possible goes away because the Laws of Nature will dictate which of the many logically possible configurations will actually evolve, i.e., become objectively real. Those potential configurations that do not become objectively real are then not an issue. It does not seem reasonable to me that they somehow take on a status of being "real" (in some mysterious quantum sense) "alternate/parallel universes."

As an aside, earlier in Giorbran's post of 23 Dec, '07, he alludes to the notion of "insurmountable infinities." By this I gather that he's referring to a concept similar to Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the turtle? If so, this paradox can be easily dispatched by our view of time. The race between Achilles and the turtle comprises but a small portion of the evolving universe. There simply is no "time" which is separate and distinct from the evolution of the universe. Once this is recognized, the paradox vanishes.

Apologies for the rambling nature of this post. The hour is late, or early, depending on one's way of thinking about time. Probably not an ideal time to attempt coherent thought.

Cheers

Mr. Johnstone,

It is dangerous to put fingers to keyboard when one is groggy. In my previous post I was careless in my use of the term configuration space. Despite evidence to the contrary, I do grasp the concept of a configuration space such as Barbour's Platonia. Barbour writes, "Take some point on one of the Machian geodesics in Platonia; it is a configuration of masses. Take another point a little way along the geodesic; it is a slightly different configuration." etc. (p. 119, TEOT) It strikes me that what Barbour is describing here and on the following page is a key to our goal of describing time in terms of configurations of the universe and describing "the flow of time" in terms of the evolution of configurations of the universe. Why does Barbour specify taking a point on "one of the Machian geodesics"? Would there be any other kind of (non-Machian) geodesic?

If I understand correctly some of your questions, you are grappling with understanding and/or devising the rules and methods for describing the way we move from one configuration of masses to another without introducing an external "time" component. (I've not re-read Smolin's paper yet, but I think it may be highly relevant here.) This appears to be a problem intimately linked with Barbour's Machian Distinguished Simplifier concept. In my own way of thinking, however, I would dispense with the configuration space of Platonia and simply look at a "real" configuration of masses. The universe has only one real, evolving configuration. There is only one elephant. We need not begin with a configuration space of all all potential, logically possible elephants. But I ramble. I need a configuration of the universe which includes a cup of coffee in my hand. And I'm able to make that happen! Is this a great universe that we live in, or what?

Cheers