Heuristic rule for constructing physics axiomatization by Florin Moldoveanu

Terry Padden

Florin

I find much to agree with in your essay, but I have to say your claims that you are writing about a TOE are ridiculous.

The "ultimate" challenges facing physics are Emergence and Consciousness. Surely a TOE, if there is such a thing, can handle them. Could you explain what the scope of your "TOE" is and how these are covered by it ?.

You make clear your work derives from that of Emile Grgin - but in his essay he does not mention a TOE. He focuses on unification of QM & GR. In his response to me he makes clear his Quantions are not ultimate structures, and in no way suggests they will enable a TOE.

The unification of QM & GR has been with us for 30 years it is an immediate problem - not an ultimate one. The TOE proponents of a previous generation abandoned their ridiculous TOE claims when everyone realised they were ridiculous and brought only discredit to the proponents and to physics. Why do you want to revive this discredited nonsense. It only devalues your work and that of Grgin.

Also re your axiomatics. Yuri Manin is one of the greatest living mathematicians often called onto to present to leading mathematical conferences keynote addresses that layout the challenges facing mathematics today. A quote from one of them is featured near the end of my essay. To paraphrase. Like TOEs in physics, in maths the day of axiomatics / formalisms is over - MEANING is what matters. I think this is always true of physics.

[deleted]

Florin, your essay is a beauty of sorts and very popular both with he public and the community. Thus you may be running short of time, as i await your response to my latest post of Oct 03; 4:47 am. Please do not feel pushed, respond only if you find my post as of some use to you in your essay text.

Florin Moldoveanu

Dear Narendra,

Sorry if I did not answer your questions completely. To your post on Oct 03; 4:47 am, I replied on your site on Oct. 3, 2009 @ 14:53 GMT and you answered back on Oct. 4, 2009 @ 09:26 GMT. (I wish FQXi would have had a simple ID number instead of the time stamp to keep track of the threads of discussions).

I thought I have completely answered your question, but please ask your question again so that I will not digress on a tangent you are not interested in.

Florin Moldoveanu

Terry,

I also find much to agree in your essay, but I think you misunderstood what I say about the TOE.

Let me try to clarify: I do not know if a TOE does or does not exist. It would be nice if it did, but we cannot start from there. However, physics axiomatization does exist, and this is the right place to start. The very title of my essay does not say: "Heuristic rule for constructing a TOE", but for solving Hilbert sixth problem.

Now there are two basic approaches:

1. Closed mathematical structure/theory explaining axiomatization/everything.

2. Open mathematical structures.

The first approach is Tegmark's (and Gordon McCabes' and others) approach and is partially based on similarities between physics and math, the second is mine and it is based on differences.

I do not say: here is this wonderful mathematical structure we can write up on a piece of paper, say "fly" and a new universe will form.

What I do say is that the core characteristics of nature are: (1) events to have an ontology, (2) interaction to escape the frozen fate of mathematical structures, and (3) infinite complexity to avoid being some cartoon characters, or a brain in a vat. From this I eliminate almost all mathematical structures which are incompatible with the 3 principles. The mathematical structures which pass this filtering are the ones we confirm in all our experiments: space-time, quantum mechanics, electroweak symmetry, etc. Therefore physics axiomatization is achieved in open form by double negation avoiding Gödel's objections. Neither math, not physics have closed form axiomatizations.

Now back to your points. I cannot say anything about Consciousness because I am not qualified, but I do worry about Emergence, because this may be a potential loophole in my approach (what if infinite complexity is only apparent and not exact for example?)

About Emile Grgin, he was indeed a great inspiration for me. Before discovering his work, I was developing the idea that relativity and time are provable necessities of nature, and I highly suspected the same can be said about quantum mechanics, but I did not have any good way of proving it. Searching for results in this vein, I came in contact with Emile's work and for the very first time I understood quantum mechanics. His work in composability became the foundation for one of the 3 principles of nature (in my essay the mathematical foundation is based on 3 core research programs: Emile Grgin, Jochen Rau, and myself). Quantions are only a natural consequence of composability and I am also trying to extract additional result from them.

You say: "The unification of QM & GR has been with us for 30 years it is an immediate problem - not an ultimate one. The TOE proponents of a previous generation abandoned their ridiculous TOE claims when everyone realised they were ridiculous and brought only discredit to the proponents and to physics. Why do you want to revive this discredited nonsense. It only devalues your work and that of Grgin."

Where did you get the idea that I want to revive anything? I specifically say in my essay that the landscape principle has no value towards axiomatization. But a successful axiomatization should also solve the quantum gravity problem and for now I do not have anything valuable to say in this area. I only have my own biased way of suggesting an attack direction, but nothing else at this time.

I am not aware of Yuri Manin, but I disagree with his remarks, and I have strong proof. In math, the Bourbaki approach led towards (a dreaded) formalization and axiomatization, but it had its merits. Emile Grgin used the Bourbaki approach in constructing an abstract algebra unifying classical and quantum mechanics. This work led later to quantions. So if you appreciate the unification of QM with relativity in the quantionic framework, you should also appreciate the way it was done. Axiomatization is not just gold-plating the carburetor, it helps strip the unessential clutter in seeing the essence of things and this does help progress, particularly in periods when we are stuck and in need of greater clarity.

Florin

Florin Moldoveanu

Steve,

Thank you for your kind words.

Robert Oldershaw

Florin,

Saying that I ignore "all that we already know about gravity and electromagnetism" is provably false.

This only shows that you have little understanding of Discrete Scale Relativity.

For example I uniquely use the Kerr-Newman solution of the Einstein-Maxwell equations to successfully retrodict the mass and radius of the proton. The reason everyone failed in their previous attempts to do this was that they used the wrong value of G. DSR tells you specifically what value of G to use. The successful retrodiction is available for your study [website: Technical Notes: " Subatomic Particles..."].

So let's be clear, I do not ignore well-tested physics like General Relativity and Classical Electromagnetism. On the other hand, you ignore the well-documented discrete self-similar paradigm.

On another issue, my dark matter predictions were published in The Astrophysical Journal [322, 34-36, 1987]. You might look it up.

My complaint is that people who act like they have no functioning right hemispheres have controlled physics for decades and filled countless theoretical physics journals with millions of incomprehensible equations which offer little or nothing in the way of useful and/or accurate understanding of nature. String theory is just the archetype of this truly mad and pervasive excursion that theoretical physics has been on.

First come the concepts! And to generate useful conceptual advances you need two well-functioning hemispheres, with an emphasis on a powerful right hemisphere.

Simplex signilum very,

Robert L. Oldershaw

www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

Florin Moldoveanu

Hello Frank,

We had exchanged many messages in the past, and I thought my position was clear. I did not see anything different in your questions from what you asked before. Let me repeat my position again: 1. unification of electromagnetism with gravity is wrong, as we already know that electromagnetism is unified first with the weak force. 2. Unification in dreams is not a mathematical explanation.

Florin

Florin Moldoveanu

Robert,

It is true, I do not understand Discrete Scale Relativity, but that was not my criticism. Postulating a fractal structure I would expect that the pattern of atomic physics and galactic physics to occur again at even higher scales much larger than galactic distances. After all, a self-similar fractal pattern should be repeating itself.

My contention is that there is nothing beyond the galactic scale resembling your patterns because the atomic and galactic patterns are generated by the 2 infinite range interactions: electromagnetism and gravity. So either your pattern does repeat above the galactic scales, or it is not a fractal. But if you do not call it a fractal, then you should explain the origin of your best fit parameters. If you can manage to put them on a solid explanatory foundation, then your dark mater predictions will be taken much more seriously.

Florin

Robert Oldershaw

Hi Forin,

Very interesting.

You contend that "there is nothing beyond the galactic scale resembling your patterns because the atomic and galactic patterns are generated by the 2 infinite range interactions: electromagnetism and gravity".

Fine, but consider two things.

1. Your contention that EM and GR are infinite range interactions is purely an assumption. This has never been tested, and in fact is technically untestable. Right there you are on shaky ground.

2. Your logic also implies that EM+GR can generate atomic, stellar and galactic structure, but not higher level structure!! Oops, I think you've got a logical disconnect there, my friend. What physical mechanisn would permit discrete self-similar atomic, stellar and galactic structure, but suddenly cut this off above the galactic scale?

People who understand Discrete Cosmological Self-Similarity have not been able to falsify it over 3+ decades of trying. Those who do not have an adequate understanding of the new paradigm are hardly likely to be more successful.

Bottom Line: Empirical evidence trumps theoretical assumptions. Every time.

Simplex signilum veri,

RLO

www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

Florin Moldoveanu

Hi Robert,

You contend that is impossible to determine if EM and GR have infinite range.

Your first your argument is incorrect. We know that the photon has zero mass, and while it will be never possible to detect a single graviton, we know gravity works to at least the size of the observable universe. However, all this is irrelevant as we definitely know that the strong and weak force have a much smaller range and for my argument we can replace "infinite range" with "very large range".

For your second point, you may be right, but you contradict your first point: if EM and GR do have only a finite range, then there will be definitely a cut-off.

But all this is only a fruitless discussion of many ifs. Bottom line is that pushing a new paradigm is always an uphill battle. In this day and age one person cannot do it all by himself, and you need collaborators to join in your quest. For that you need to address all the questions critics will raise. A simple statement that empirical evidence trumps it all is insufficient even if you are right.

Please feel free to ignore my advice, but this is not what I am doing for my paradigm battle. In my case Gödel's theorem is the first thing that comes to mind when someone thinks about axiomatizing physics and I take this challenge head-on from the second statement of the abstract.

My overall impression of your theory from the very limited amount of time I devoted trying to understand it is that you may be onto something, but your explanation for it is over the top.

Even if you are right and I am dead wrong, trying to convince me of your point of view will not make me start working in your theory and is a waste of time. A much more efficient use of time is to take my honest impression (which may be wrong) and try to address my concerns (which I think are probably shared by many other people). Of course, you may think that I am not a typical physicist and that my views do not reflect the general perception of your theory by the general physics audience, but you have to decide this for yourself.

Florin

Robert Oldershaw

Hello Florin,

1. Consider your 2nd paragraph:

"Your first your argument is incorrect. We know that the photon has zero mass, and while it will be never possible to detect a single graviton, we know gravity works to at least the size of the observable universe. However, all this is irrelevant as we definitely know that the strong and weak force have a much smaller range and for my argument we can replace "infinite range" with "very large range"."

You pepper your arguments with absolutes that are assumed but cannot be tested. For example, zero mass photon or infinite range EM/GR. You proceed as if we have much more guaranteed-to-be-true knowledge than we really have. Well-known problems in physics like the hierarchy problem and the vacuum energy density crisis demonstrate quite clearly that there are serious mistakes somewhere in our current set of theoretical assumptions. But if you treat this set of assumptions as "empirical facts" then you might be blind to the critical changes in our thinking that are required for advance.

2. Yesterday you argued that the infinite range of EM+GR ruled out metagalactic self-similarity. Today you argue that a finite range for EM+GR would rule out such structure. My, my, you certainly have all bases covered! Methinks the theoretician speaks with forked tongue.

Bottom Lines: These discussions are for the benefit of others, Florin. Know what I mean?

The abstract theoretical axiomatic approach to making discoveries has not worked in the past and is unlikely to work in the future. A quote from Maxwell may be appropriate here.

"I have no reason to believe that the human intellect is able to weave a system of physics out of its own resources without experimental labour. Whenever the attempt has been made it has resulted in an unnatural and self-contradictory mass of rubbish." James Clerk Maxwell

No, my friend, if you study the history of physics you will find that the fundamental advances by Democritus, Spinoza, Galileo, Faraday, Darwin, Einstein, etc. follow the same patterm. (1) Study nature with a passion for the real thing, not some abstract representation of it, (2) identify a pattern or relation that appears to unify previously unrelated concepts, (3) develop the critical empirical clues into a coherent paradigm, and finally (4) apply mathematical and analytical techniques to formalize and extend the conceptual paradigm.

Sorry, my friend and colleague, but "same as it ever was".

Yours in science, which dares to question any assumption,

RLO

www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

[deleted]

Dear Florin,

In your conclusions you end with the statement:

"When experiments are no longer needed or possible, we will enter a post Gallilean era when physics would no longer rely exclusively on experiments as the ultimately judge of success. Math never depended on experiments and whenever physics is experiment independent, it should be done more like math: with increased rigour and safeguarding a diverse approach towards research directions."

So, my conclusion out of that statement would be that according to you what is ultimately possible in physics is to replace the physics with math (and get rid of these nasty true or false experiments) :) ?

Good luck with the contest!

Steven Oostdijk

Florin Moldoveanu

Dear Steven,

With apologies to Robert and Frank for answering you first (and I do not know where Frank's message went, I did not reported as inappropriate myself), here is the answer.

First I want to say that I am glad someone noticed my very last statement, because it is very important. There are 2 ideas in it.

If the axiomatization approach is to become successful and explain much more than today, then math is indeed going to play a much more important role. But there is another road leading there and this is due to the very weak nature of gravity. This is what happens already today in string theory which does not offer any true experimental prediction, and therefore math takes the center stage instead.

Now I respect the string theory for its insights, but I disagree with its dominant role in theoretical funding which starves out other approaches and here we are competing at FQXi for only token recognition while we should be able to get decent grants from traditional sources. What I say in my statement is that if what you do is experiment independent in physics (and this includes myself), then the research grants should be evenly divided up in a similar fashion with what happens in math today.

String theory had its roots in traditional high energy physics with valid claims for the lion's share of resources, but the virtual monopoly on funding it inherited survived to this day despite the lack of experimental predictions and this is just not fair. This is a hot acrimonious topic and I tried to find some argument everyone can agree with while making the case for the FQXi mission and diversity (or at least that was my intention).

PS: due to the overwhelming number of late entries, I did not had a chance yet to read your essay, but I will do it (hopefully) shortly.

Robert Oldershaw

"this is due to the very weak nature of gravity"

Sigh, another unfortunate bias among theoretical physicists, and one which has no empirical justification. It has just been repeated so often that no one questions it anymore. Very unscientific, in my opinion.

Gravitation is strong enough to keep your body on this Earth, even though it is not strong enough to prevent a mind from floating off into the abyss of abstraction.

What if the strength of gravitation is scale dependent like t'Hooft and I claim? Then most of your agrument collapses.

If we base our arguments on towers of assumptions, are we not setting ourselves up for a big fall?

RLO

www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

Florin Moldoveanu

Robert,

Flamboyant statements are a poor substitute for solid judgment. Also you cannot pick and choose which experimental facts you have to explain. Third, assuming a victimization posture of not being understood by the theoreticians who are not questioning enough proven theories may help you carry on in your quest against the opposition, but it is not good science.

Also it is really hard to continue this discussion with you while you continue to display this unprofessional cowboy attitude. I already told you my opinion about your theory earlier. You can accept it, or ignore it, it makes no difference to me.

[deleted]

Dear Robert and Florin,

""this is due to the very weak nature of gravity"

Sigh, another unfortunate bias among theoretical physicists, and one which has no empirical justification."

I completely agree with Robert. Gravity scales. But it scales linearly, so you will find that even a proton, electron or photon would measure 9.8m/s^2 gravity at their surfaces.

Steven Oostdijk

Florin Moldoveanu

Dear Steven,

Can you please elaborate on how gravity scales linearly? Do you mean Newtonian gravity is not inverse proportional with squared distance, but only with distance?

Thanks,

Florin

Robert Oldershaw

Florin,

In this discussion, promoting Discrete Scale Relativity has been a secondary concern.

The primary goal was to promote a very general scientific philosophy: If you want to understand nature, you should study nature, not Platonic artifice.

When the discussion deteriorates, it should end.

RLO

www.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

[deleted]

Hi Florin ,all,

You say

"Gravity scales. But it scales linearly, so you will find that even a proton, electron or photon would measure 9.8m/s^2 gravity at their surfaces."

I agree too .

Indeed we are under specific local system ,here our Earth and its mass ,the code of the center is relevant too.

If the gravity is the mass ,of course we must adapt the different steps of the spherical system.

the distance ,r is too very important about the gravity ,

all bodies interacts ,attracts ....we can interpret the gravity at many scales ,Earth ,sun,galaxy,super groups,universe,quantum systems and mechanics of rotations .

Even our moon has a rule of balance,of complemenatrity .If we raise ,take off only one particle ,all will be chaotic and in all senses .The gravity ,this evolutive mass is the equilibrium between all ,even the space .

The quantum gravity or the galactical gravity is the same link ,the mass and the rotating spheres for me .The gravity has a cause ,the evolution and the rotating spheres ,the rotation is proportional with the mass in a physical point of vue of course .

The gravity always changes ,due to the evolution and the very weak polarisations .

But of course we can't perceive these decimals about the increasing of mas ,it's always a question of relativity in fact.

Best Regards

Steve

Florin Moldoveanu

Dear Steve,

I did not say that gravity scales linearly, but if you agree with it, maybe you can clarify it for me because I do not really understand what it means.

Thanks,

Florin

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