Heuristic rule for constructing physics axiomatization by Florin Moldoveanu

Florin Moldoveanu

Mark,

I've got a copy of your "Why quantum mechanics favors adynamical and acausal interpretations such as Relational Blockworld over backwardly causal and time-symmetric rivals. Studies in History & Philosophy of Modern Physics 39(4), 736-751 (2008)." paper. I will get back to you after I will read it carefully.

Florin

[deleted]

Hi Florin,

I'm posting a copy of this message in both your and my forum.

I have read and enjoyed your most recent posts and know I owe you a response, but recent personal events have conspired to keep me away from physics for at least another few days. I will reply as soon as I can.

Again, thanks for your time and interest.

- Owen

[deleted]

Florin,

The paper you have is the most philosophical of our work. If you want a refutation of backwards causation, then that's the paper. If you want to see the physics behind our interpretation (due largely to A. Bohr, Mottelson, Ulfbeck, Kaiser, etc.), then read the FoP paper cited previously. If you want to see our interpretation of QFT and our graphical path integral approach, see 0908.4348. We would love to have your feedback on RBW, but I don't know that it will bear on your program.

Mark

Florin Moldoveanu

Mark,

I have finished reading your paper (and quant-ph/0205182). Very interesting stuff overall. What I would like to read next is to see how exactly you are completely solving the measurement problem in RBW. Do you have a suggested paper on that?

Regarding RBW itself, I agree with the R part, but not with the BW part which I think it is an over-generalization. The arguments you use for the bloc-world, acausal and adynamical interpretation, I can use myself to justify the Bayesian interpretation of the wavefunction collapse. In mathematics, in an axiomatic system, any result which is derived from axioms is acausal and adynamical. All mathematical theorems are already there the moment one selects the axioms.

In my essay I mention that QM can be obtained by 3 axioms: composability, consistent reasoning about a physical system, and a technical separation axiom. It is the consistent reasoning part which leads to unitary groups and the Bayesian interpretation. The variants of Hardy's experiment and the EPR state can also be explained as consistent reasoning about all available evidence (including the "D" click). And Bayesian reasoning is just like obtaining a theorem in mathematics: acausal and adynamical.

I have still to read about how you unify relativity with QM in the RBW framework, but I have to say I am very skeptical: relativity demands orthogonal groups and there are no orthogonal groups in nonrelativistic QM. Also I do not quite see how you can claim to solve the measurement problem completely inside RBW. Bayesian interpretation, and decoherence solve part of the problem. In my opinion, the remaining part is to provide a mechanism for the emergence of superselection rules.

Florin

[deleted]

Florin,

For our resolution of the measrument problem see Stuckey, W.M., Silberstein, M., Cifone, M.: Reconciling spacetime and the quantum: Relational Blockworld and the quantum liar paradox. Foundations of Physics 38(4), 348-383 (2008). Again, it does not address the MP per your requirement of a dynamical approach. We use the path integral approach which includes future boundary conditions so we can work in spacetime but it is inherently a BW view since one is supplying a specific outcome for the calculation. Are you familiar with the path integral approach to physics? As we show in our FQXi essay, it is very different than the "causal" approach of differential equations. Maybe you should read our essay to decide whether you want to go further down this rabbit hole :-) If so, then you can try the FoP paper.

Our unification of relativity and QM is via an underlying discrete structure so we intend to make correspondence with GR via Regge calculus. See Figure 8 of QFT paper and associated text for an explanation. The continuum approximation of our result will not be a differentiable manifold because it will be constitutively non-local as explained therein. One has to ignore this non-locality to obtain the GR spacetime, thus GR is only an approximation. Your critique is based on the assumption that we expect to recover GR exactly, while we expect to recover GR plus additional non-local structure via discrete mathematics.

Sorry, this is a lot of info about RBW posted on your thread. Maybe we should take such questions to my thread in the future. Let us strive to keep your thread about your approach :-)

Mark

Jonathan Dickau

Hello again Florin,

I re-read your essay, and I must say I'm even more impressed. It is elegant, how you are able to reduce such a complex process (or problem) to a few simplicities. I still feel that it is somehow a little too simple, but I'm not really sure that I have an objection as such. There's more to say, but I'm away at a conference, and my time at the library is about at an end.

I will re-visit this thread when back home, this weekend, and comment more extensively.

All the Best,

Jonathan

Florin Moldoveanu

Mark,

I've read "Stuckey, W.M., Silberstein, M., Cifone, M.: Reconciling spacetime and the quantum: Relational Blockworld and the quantum liar paradox. Foundations of Physics 38(4), 348-383 (2008).", but I did not double check the math myself. I think I understand now your position, but I believe that there is a case where your RBW interpretation cannot fully answer the measurement problem: what happens after decoherence?

All the examples you give, I can explain them in the Bayesian formalism just fine. But in this interpretation, it is clear that one cannot explain the emergence of superselection rules as Bayesian gain of knowledge, because this is outside the traditional non-relativistic QM which incidentally can be obtained by the Bayesian interpretation. Proving superselection rules from Bayesian interpretation amounts to inconsistency.

One thing that looks suspicious is the K4-NRQM because this clearly does not satisfy the Lorenz transformation, but again, I did not double checked your math and I am not sure to what degree you are using this. I am very familiar with the path integral approach, but I have never worked in this area myself.

About the BW interpretation, I simply cannot agree with it. In this interpretation there is no freedom and all future history is pre-determined. Non-relativistic QM is perfectly compatible with this interpretation, but not relativistic QM. (Check out A. Connes and C. Rovelli, Von Neumann algebra automorphisms and time-thermodynamics relation in general

covariant quantum theories, arXiv:gr-qc/9406019 (1994).) A RBW interpretation is time independent and this runs aground of the Tomitza-Takesaki theorem which provides a God-given time parameter.

Florin

PS: I had also posted this on your thread and we can continue the RBW discussion there.

[deleted]

Hello Jonathan,

My approach is indeed very simple, and the conceptual aspects are really straightforward, but wait till you see the math that comes with it. My biggest worry is that I simply do not have enough time to master the entire math which is relevant for my approach.

I am looking forward to your comments.

Best regards,

Florin

Owen Cunningham

Hi Florin,

I just posted a response to your comments on my thread (517). Looking forward to your reply.

Thanks,

Owen

[deleted]

Hi Florin:

I had posted to you previously:

Time has 3 parts -- past, present, and future. Any TOE must not only address the integrated extensiveness of experience in general, but it must address this as well. You cannot have a TOE whereby time is dimininished, in other words. The integrated extensiveness of being/thought/experience must address the integrated extensiveness of time. The totality of time must be understood in conjunction with, and inseparable from, the present. Physics, to date, has failed miserably at this.

Your reply was:

Frank,

You say: "The totality of time must be understood in conjunction with, and inseparable from, the present. Physics, to date, has failed miserably at this."

Present is a part of time in both Newtonian physics and special relativity. I do not understand in what way physics has failed.

Florin

My question is/was: How do you see General Relativity in relation to my paragraph above?

[deleted]

I have been away from here for a while. Just a few comments that I have. The nonexistence of a time operator is I think related to the fact that general relativity is not directly quantizable. I think that, as I allude to in my essay (which is a sketch of sorts really) that the underlying system in the Jordan exceptional matrix is a Skyrmion field theory that is abelian. This is quantized. Spacetime emerges as a classical or semi-classical field theory at lower energy.

There are two notions of time, one in relativity which is the proper interval. The other in quantum field theory which is defined by equal time commutators on a spatial surface, which is chosen in a coordinate condition. So quantum field theory requires that time is something "bolted down" on spatial surfaces. This is a fundamental departure between general relativity and quantum field theory.

Cheers LC

Florin Moldoveanu

Hi Owen,

I replied on your thread and we can continue the discussion there.

Thanks,

Florin

Florin Moldoveanu

Lawrence,

"The nonexistence of a time operator is I think related to the fact that general relativity is not directly quantizable. I think that, as I allude to in my essay (which is a sketch of sorts really) that the underlying system in the Jordan exceptional matrix is a Skyrmion field theory that is abelian. This is quantized. Spacetime emerges as a classical or semi-classical field theory at lower energy."

I found this hard to believe. Standard QM does not have anything to do directly with gravity (unless Penrose is right). Also time is related to the Lie part of QM, and not the Jordan part.

Cheers,

Florin

[deleted]

Standard QFT is set up according to equal time commutators on a spatial surface. In special relativity this is a rather straight forward procedure. For curved spacetime this results in nonunitarity or unitarily inequivalent representations of states. This is seen in the Bogoliubov transformation. So going back to the special relativity case this does mean that a coordinate condition is established globally, or a frame is chosen, and the wave dynamical equations integrated from there. These are coordinate times specified for each of the "infinite" number of harmonic oscillators defined by the partial differential wave equation. In the case of curved spacetime there are of course hyperbolic transformations between local frames which determine connection coefficients. This makes the QFT in curved spacetime "odd."

Gravitation only really tells us that one definition of time is physically realistic. This is proper time, or the invariant interval. This is different both qualitatively and quantitatively from the definition of time for quantum wave dynamics.

Cheers LC

[deleted]

Hi Lawrence ,Florin,Frank ,Owen ,Jonathan ,...

It is a beautiful thread .

Dear Florin ,

Happy to see your scores ,good luck .

But I have an ? ,you say

I found this hard to believe. Standard QM does not have anything to do directly with gravity

I agree it is hard to beleive indeed .All is dependant and linked .The cause of the gravity comes from the interior and not from the exterior in my opinion but of course all thinks like he wants and interprets in function of his datas and tools .Perhaps some synchrnizations are possible between the maths and physics .There perhaps the axiomatization will become synchronized with reals .

In all case your method is relevant ,congratulations .

Like several about these extrapolations .I am persuaded what if yoyu work all in team ,your results shall be better .For exemple ,and I forget some people of course ,Let's imagine if You ,Florin ,Lawrence ,Ray,Jason,Lisi,Girn,georgina,...focus on one system .I am persuaded that the results shall become very interestings.The complementarity is fundamental ,the ideas of several are better than the ideas of only one .

In all case I wish all the best ,good luck .

Regards

Steve

Florin Moldoveanu

Hi Steve,

Thank you for your kind words. Gravity is just a harder problem, but I have no doubt the solution will be found.

Regards,

Florin

[deleted]

Hi Florin,

I like your idea by which time solves the antinomies in mathematics. Let me rephrase it: Let's say that in a system of axioms it is possible to derive the implication "A implies notA" for some proposition A. In the absence of time (as is the case in mathematical logic), the implication is immediate, meaning that A and notA coexist, which is implossible. But with the sightest delay in the implication (as is the case in the electronic implimentation of logic) A and notA alternate. Only one of them holds at any instant, and we have a square wave.

Reards, Emile.

Florin Moldoveanu

Emile,

I am glad you liked it. The concept of time is a bit more complicated than simply avoiding antinomies. In logic, there is this branch called paraconsistent logic which has major applications in computers for example.

Because in nature only a handful of mathematical structures are unique/distinguished/used by nature, we do not need to eliminate all math antinomies, but only a small subset, those corresponding to liar's paradox. One key to the proof is the realization that global consistency conditions impose unphysical consequences on local physics, and therefore only global hyperbolic space-time is free of contradictions.

I am thinking that there must be some categorical proof of the statement that global consistency is against local freedom, because we encounter this in other domains besides CTC spaces.

In human societies for example, totalitarian closed societies impose global constraints on individuals violating their (local) human rights. In phase space, a symplectic structure does allow for closed evolution curves, but on a symplectic manifold one does not encounter the same freedom as on a metric manifold. There, arbitrary coordinate changes do not preserve Hamilton's equations, and a sympectic manifold has only global invariants while a metric manifold can have local invariants.

Because nature is not one giant mathematical structure, but it is made out of many mathematical structures, there is an inherit freedom of how to combine them and it is this freedom that demands the existence of time. This picture is consistent with Barbour's ideas and with the LQG approach.

Still, in a CTC space, paradoxes can not be avoided, and an ill defined Cauchy problem does not become well defined by itself. The existence of time and non existence of CTC spaces should be a consequence of something else. The natural mechanism for the emergence of globally hyperbolic time is QM. There are enough mathematical results showing that one no longer needs to postulate global hyperbolicity and time, but the time problem will be fully solved when we will have a sensible quantum gravity theory.

Regards,

Florin

[deleted]

A CTC spacetime only makes sense if the spacetime is compartmented such as the Taub-NUT spacetime. There a region with closed null curves partitions the spacetime into achronal region and a CTC region. The spacetime is similar to a black hole metric, but where time serves the role of the radius and horizon length. A spacetime, or region of a spacetime, with CTC means there does not exist Cauchy surfaces of data which are spacelike everywhere. This is likely not physically realistic, unless this region is bounded by a horizon or is separated from a chronal region by some geodesic incompleteness.

Cheers LC

Florin Moldoveanu

Lawrence,

A Cauchy surface is essential to Born's rule as was pointed out by Jacobson otherwise the expectation values are not well defined. Whenever interactions are present, a CTC space leads to loss of coherence and Boulware and Hawking showed that in separate papers. (It is easy to se why: a particle is emitted at one point in space-time, travels around a CTC loop, acquires a phase difference and is re-absorbed at the point of creation breaking coherence and unitarity).

Florin

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