Editor's Choice: The Illusion of the Expanding Universe

Hi Steve

regarding past, present, future please read mz article

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/489

yours amrit

Roy Johnstone: It is interesting that Bohmist would say the particle moves, when for the H-atom the electron (electron-beable) is perfectly still. I am not particularly a partisan of any quantum interpretation, but I do find it interesting there can be so many of them. It is not hard to show that a Schild's ladder construction in general relativity corresponds to a Galois field GF(4), which holds as well for a spin-1/2 system as well. I think that GR and QM have some partial functorial equivalency, which might have some bearing on how quantum interpretations and "time interpretations" in QM and GR are related to each other.

This is not a work in progress, but more an idea I have been kicking around.

Cheers LC

Lawrence

solution to connect GR and QM is in fact that massive bodies and elementary particles move in timeless quantum space and with clocks we measure their motion.

yours amrit

Quantum space, or HIlbert space, has a different geometric content from the standard sense, such as space or spacetime. A state space for a quantum system has no reference to either space or time. This comes about when the state vector |Ψ> is contracted with a

(I used carat signs which ended the post:

state vector |Ψ) is contracted with a (r|, for a representation of a spatial vector R, so that Ψ(r) = (r|Ψ), which is the wave function. So the wave function has a representation in space, which includes time for relativistic QM, according to the analysis imposed. This in part reflects why relativistic wave equations use a coordinate time imposed by initial Cauchy data, whereas general relativity has proper time as its invariant and coordinate time is a matter of coordinate choice similar to a gauge choice.

Cheers LC

Lawrence my mind can not follow you fully. What I know is that in GR there is a misunderstanding of time being forth coordinate. Forth coordinate is a product of

X4 = t x c.

So forth coordinate is timeless too.

Solution foully conection between GR and QM is a switch in physicist mind from space/time to timeless space i.e. timeless quantum space. I would really appreciate that theoretical physicists would start building models of reality on the base of two two prepositions i suggests above.

yours amrit

Spatial and energetic change alone can account for observed reality. No material change can occur without energy change no energy change without change in spatial position. There is no necessity to retain time as a parameter of the universe, in my opinion.

Past and future are mental constructs to deal with material and energetic changes. Memory, anticipation and prediction are important survival tools in that the organism can learn by growth of synaptic connections and use prediction of change to modify behaviour in advantageous ways.

Present is also a problematic concept because the present that is observed by each observer is made up of a patchwork of data that has travelled over different 4th dimensional distances to reach the observer. The mind "stitches" the information together to give a single image that can be comprehended as a present moment. That moment is different for every observer. Past, present and future all form part of historical time, Ht. Ht is a mental construct. It is not a necessary physical parameter of objective, material reality of the universe.

Using the unmodified space-time model; If a giraffe walks around for 60 minutes and the past has material existence, then at a rate of replication of just 1 giraffe per minute, there will be 60 giraffes rather than 1 in the space-time continuum for every hour of its life. If one were to do the same calculation for every animate and inanimate object in the universe over the hypothesised lifetime of the universe, it would become a complete nonsense. There is no material past that can be returned to only memory and records and observed material changes. Those changes can be explained by alteration in position along a 4th spatial dimension with corresponding energy change just as well, if not better, than by by use of the assumption of passage of time.( Time t being a confused muddle of concepts.)

Anything percieved outside of the self can only be known by the mind using data that it has received from the objective reality. There will be energetic and spatial changes occurring between EM or sound or smell leaving the object and conscious mind perceiving it. The mind recreates the distant object from the data so that it can be experienced. The experience is a biologically simulated reality not objective reality itself. The organism is separated from objective reality by the Prime Reality Interface where data is input via the sense organs, which has to occur so that a subjective reality can be formed for perception and experience.

So I must agree that there is no passage of time only perception of the passage of time. That perception is subjective time, which may refer to an external or internal clock. The internal clock based on biological estimation alone and using circadian rhythms set by the pituitary gland gives internal time ti, The external clock using a mechanical time piece or environmental clues gives external time, te.

Hi Georgina, With introduction of Minkovsky space-time math model into physics has happened that ma thematic has overruled physics. Physics is not any more natural science, physics has become mathematical science.

Theoretical physics is developing models of the world we do not know how much they correspond to the physical world itself.

Some physicists discuss of introduction of *chrons* as a basic quanta of space-time. There is absolutely no evidence of such a particle.

We are on crucial point of physics development where we have to exam-in again fundamental physical terms we deal with them.

Space-time definitely should not be a part of physics vocabulary any more.

yours amrit

Fundamental physical terms are:

matter, space, energy, change (motion) and time.

Uder examin based on elementary perception time and space will not pass.

Time and space we do not perceive with senses, so moght be they are only mind inventions.

Matter, energy and chnge we perveive with senses.

Where motions runs ?

Here we have to introduce a term "gravity field" as a basic arena of the universe. It is not percivable with senses, but we can perceive that matterr is in some meduim, some energy field.

So fundamental physical terms that exits for sure as a physical reality are:

matter, energy, gravity field, change.

and with clock we measure freuency, velocity and numerical order of change.

Term time and space can be abandoned, we can build physics without them

symbol t in physical equations means tick of clock

t = tick of clock that run in timeless gravity ield

Hi Amrit ,

Thanks,I understand now.

Steve

Amrit,I agree that time is not one of the necessary parameters.

As every change in spatial position is an energy change and vice versa, it is, to my mind, possible to describe physics either in terms of energy changes within an energetic field or in terms of changes in positions of matter within space. The two versions of the same model not being incompatible so energy changes can be discussed in a spatial description, and material or spatial changes within an energetic description.

We can observe energy changes such as temperature rise but this is also increase in change in position of particles in space. We observe matter in space and spatial change, though I accept that this is also subjective interpretation of kinetic and potential energy changes.This gives flexibility of description, while also overlap of the parameters.Thus being more terms than strictly necessary for a single viable model.

Space-time is not obsolete but needs to be recognised as an excellent model that has some limitations. Like Bohr's atom which is still a brilliant model for aiding comprehension although not realistic.

Our subjective experience is space time. Time will continue to be important in many areas of scientific investigation. However in other areas it is important to remove subjective experience from the model that is used to gain better understanding of underlying objective reality.

In my opinion,It will be necessary to recognise that in such a model the 4th dimension does not represent time but another spatio-energetic dimension, giving another another distance in quaternion space, at 90 degrees to 3D vector space.Or if using an energetic version of the model an amount of potential energy loss or gain within an energetic field.

It is preferable that some recognition of 4th dimensional change is put into mathematical models rather than not. Chronos is just another way of saying time. However it could also, to my mind, be linked to a concept of "the Chronos spatial(or 4th spatio-energetic) dimension." That being a way of saying that the 4th dimensional change in position gives those changes perceived as passage of time from 3D vector space. Though it is actually another spatial dimension.

It is unfortunate that physics has in some regards become a branch of mathematics. It could aspire to embrace a more interdisciplinary approach. Becoming the hub of understanding, drawing together and assimilating knowledge from the biological sciences including neurobiology, biochemistry and other diverse fields that have relevance to comprehension of reality.

The observer is integral to the reality that is observed. When the subjective observer is removed there remains a model that describes reality. That model is still a product of the human mind. Remove the mind that seeks to separate measure and classify (logical left hemisphere), and there is then nothing separate and no absolute quantitative evaluation. (A right hemisphere perspective.) How it feels to have left brain stroke Talk by neuroanatomist Jill Bolte Taylor.

Dear Georgina

I deeply agree with your letter.

According to my research time can remain in physics as a run of clocks.

Symbol t in physical equations is representing tick of clock in timeless gravity field i.e. quantum space.

In this way all will be elegant and easy but not to easy.

yours amrit

hi all ,

Indeed the main equations don't need time ,only to calculate some equations ....I take time only for the evolution in fact .Like a beautiful constant to harmonize towards this ultim balance between mass .

These mass shan't exist without this constant .More we go to the walls ,limits ,more we go towards this unknew and eternity .

Friendly

Steve

Dear all ,

What do you think about the fact what we use only a weak part of our Brain ,perhaps we can calculate thus the ultim connectibility of brains in this ultim sphere thus the time can be insert with pragamatism like an evolution still .If we take the first cells.....the dedifferencitation .....thus with a extrapolation.....we can calculate some intersting news things ,cosmologicaly and quantum(ally) what a bizare word sorry hihih

I d like have your point of vue .

Best regards

Steve

X4 = t x c.

What this means is that everything is moving at the speed of light! In our so called rest frame we are moving along a "4th dimension" at the speed of light.

As for our brains and the rest, it must be realized that it is finite and we may mentally perceive things in ways which limit our knowledge. For instance the human mind projects, we project ourselves when reading fiction, or we project our being on the the outer world in the form of gods and the like. We also have a "theory of the mind," where we can project our minds onto other people's minds. Other animals don't do that, so far as we know. We also communicate information and record it, which other animals do not. So as a result we can mentally process or observe the world in ways even apes can't fathom. There are other large brained creatures as well, such as cetacians, elephants and even octopi. Yet it does not appear they have our faculties for abstraction and projection.

It is of course entirely possible there exist other intelligent life forms in the universe with some qualitatively deeper mental capacity than we have. We will probably never know about this. So our science and mathematics might be to them a grammar school understanding of things. So our limits to knowledge might not constitute a fundamental limit to all possible minds which might exist in the universe. It is worth recaling the spatial extend of the universe on the Hubble frame is vast or infinite as it appears to be flat. There might exist dynamic assemblies of nucleons on the surface of neutron stars which on very rapid time scale function as highly intelligent life forms. We will never know if that sort of thing exists anywhere out there. There might be other highly complex structures in the universe which are processors of information and that have some self-directed or aware sense. We may never know anything about these, or communicate with more classical ideas of organic ETI from some other bioplanet.

cheers LC

If there is no time, then how can there be any speed?

Lawrence,

Lawrence said "What this means is that everything is moving at the speed of light! In our so called rest frame we are moving along a "4th dimension" at the speed of light."

However if there is no time in the quaternion (modified space-time model) then there is no speed either. Only ratio of change of position in 3D vector space to change in position along the 4th dimension.

You have also said "It is not clear to me that physics is meant to determine whether something like time or space exist."

It is possible to construct any kind of model. An important question is, does the model that has been constructed bear any correspondence to objective reality? If it is accepted that a map may be useful for understanding the territory then a model can be useful for interpreting reality while not itself being realistic. On a map grid lines for co-ordinates and contour lines are useful for comprehension of the terrain and communication of position. Though they can be seen on an ordinance survey map, they do not exist on the ground. Likewise dimensions and field lines may be useful in a model even though they do not exist as an objective reality outside of the model.

It may be asked, what is more useful in a model of reality space-time or space alone or field alone? I would say field or space alone or combined. Either because a change in position in space is an energy change and vice versa. Time does not help the model to function better and prevents some foundational questions from being answered.

Lawrence you have said words to the effect that, there should be some observation possible if time does not exist. The grandfather paradox is a nonsense that occurs because of assumed time. Overcome by a spatial scalar 4th. Also gravity can be explained with spatial scalar 4th (needed to solve grandfather paradox, but it is not entirely satisfactorily explained with time. The continuous motion along the scalar spatial 4th, necessary for gravity, will also give unidirectional experience of time. This model can also be used to propose a geometric entity existing without time that gives rise to the universe in its particular entropic state. As the geometric entity proposed exists without time it is not eternal and has no beginning or end, time just does not apply.

HI

Lawrence ,

the cetaceans and elephants are indeed relevants.All has a specific rule ,let's take the elephant ,it's an incredible composter in fact .

The communication of cetaceans are too incredible .Before I thought what these cetaceans were the most intelligent on Earth .I doubt still about that .It's like the Lamentin ,a sirenian ,all that is fascinating about the life and the intelligence and the complemenatrity .

I think it's evident about universal lifes ,and hope they don't make the same silly things like us ,Earthians .

The astrobiology is very intersting ,the CH4 NH3 H2O HCN.....AMINO ACIDS .

Sincerely

Steve

Lawrence,

In what sense do you mean the H-atom electron is "perfectly still"?

Cheers

Roy J