REPLY II TO BIERMANS

Anton,

My essay just points to the following facts.

Science (and physics) is an empirical method of testing our physical theories. This system considers our reality as a black box, the content of which is of no consequence. We poke the box and we get in return some reaction. These "poke and reaction" constitute our experience of reality. The information-relation between the "pokes and reactions" constitutes behaviors that we regroup to form laws. With these laws we can make wonderful things without ever having to wonder what is really in the box, i.e. what it is the we are really doing. This is, and always was, the limit of physics.

The essay presents the idea that we now know enough to be able to deduce what the content of the box is. (Which is what I do in the essay)It also says that the content of the box is real by opposition to everything else we can touch and feel that is an experience. Hence, the metaphysical approach. The cool thing is that the rules inside the box are also the same outside the box, even if at first glance they appear more complex because they carry the dimensions of our reality and senses.

If you understand this, the rest is easy...

Marcel,

8 days later
  • [deleted]

Just a look at your Abstract and your Biodata, i got awareness about your simplicity and straightforwardness. yes,the nature is simple. Then what complicates Physics that started as a branch of pure philosophy. We may call that now metaphysics that is ' hypothetical physics'. All these contradictions arise because the human mind is very complex, unstable and basically wandering in its substantial nature. It makes some of our theoreticians trigger happy with their mathematical expertise. They tend to dominate Physics with their mathematical expertise, without much caring if their presumptions, concepts and precepts are relevant and valid to the problem at hand. Then there are experimentalists too who may have preconceived ideas and tend to project their results to justify their false notions. It is all done by the dirty mind.

The question to tackle therefor lies with cleaning and quieting our minds with freshness, unbiased attitudes and at the same time attune to the simplicity of nature as it is. There lies the solution to our problems in sciences, humanities and social sciences and whatever the branch of knowledge we feel attracted to work in.

Being a forensic scientist you may have had several illustrations of the crooked mind which make people do things taht they may themselves not like. But once having done so, they have the need to protect themselves. That is when they expose themselves to be caught by the science you do.

Comment to Nath

There is nothing wrong with science being empirical. As long as we recognize its limitations, we may draw very important information from it. The problem appears when we think we may pull more from it than it can deliver. By not recognizing the limits of the empirical method, we did not realize that we were not asking a very important group of questions, starting by "what are we really doing"?

The year 2000 was not supposed to look like this. Those who painted our future long ago guessed that we would by then do more and know more. The thing is that we do more things but we don't know more about what we are really doing. So, we are not wrong. We are just very late. We should have figured that out 50 years ago. The result is that we all go around very proud of our ipod nano plugged into our ears but we still strap our astronauts to tons of explosives to send them into space. This was o.k. for the daredevils of the hay days of space exploration, hardly the basis of a space exploration program.

Playing with things only require an empirical approach. To master those same things requires the deepest of understanding.

Marcel,

10 days later
  • [deleted]

Hi Marcel, thanks for your presentation. I agree that foundational questions regarding the nature of the universe import not only the physics - matters of 'mechanics', but necessarily the metaphysics as well - the matters of the mind. Our understanding will always be limited by the context of our existence, a function of the way the human neural cortex processes the information admitted and filtered by our senses, finally interpreted by the discriminate assay of the collective intellect circa 2009. In other words, when you get right down to it, it's really mind moving flag isn't it. Having said that, it appears as though mathematical science and logic may very well be providing us the means to perhaps one day apprehend a comprehensive 'objective' understanding.

I also agree with your conclusion that time is for real and space is the concept having no correspondence with reality. I arrived at that conclusion, however, in an entirely different manner: singularityshuttle.com.

TR,

Thank you for the appreciation. On the subject of metaphysics, I can only repeat one of my explanation above which is clearer than anything in my essay..

Science (and physics) is an empirical method of testing our physical theories. This system considers our reality as a black box, the content of which is of no consequence. We poke the box and we get in return some reaction. These "poke and reaction" constitute our experience of reality. The information-relation between the "pokes and reactions" constitutes behaviors that we regroup to form laws. With these laws we can make wonderful things without ever having to wonder what is really in the box, i.e. what it is the we are really doing. This is, and always was, the limit of physics.

The essay presents the idea that we now know enough to be able to deduce what the content of the box is. (Which is what I do in the essay)It also says that the content of the box is real by opposition to everything else we can touch and feel that is an experience i.e something that requires our presence and that is dictated by our limitations. Hence, the metaphysical approach....

p.s. I could not get the shuttle to work ..????

Thanks,

Marcel,

  • [deleted]

I agree, the contents of the box doesn't really matter to physics, that's more a question for metaphysics - ontology and epistemology. Nonetheless, most physicists describe their theories using terms which clearly implicate context and content (spacetime curvature, vibrating strings) because ultimately science is about trying to visualize in some sense in order to understand. Sorry the Singularity Shuttle won't run for you, it's just a flash movie but does require high-speed download to run. Some browsers make it so the buttons have to be hit twice, but this is the first I've heard of anyone having a problem. It talks about physics and metaphysics, space and time, content and nothingness; thought you might find it interesting.

REPLY II TO TR

TR: I agree, the contents of the box doesn't really matter to physics, that's more a question for metaphysics - ontology and epistemology. Nonetheless, most physicists describe their theories using terms which clearly implicate context and content (spacetime curvature, vibrating strings) because ultimately science is about trying to visualize in some sense in order to understand.

Marcel: This is the point exactly. "Understanding" is not really about knowing the laws that govern our observations and descriptions of the universe. Understanding is about knowing the logic behind the existence and evolution of the universe.

The box contains everything physicists ever wanted to know about the universe. The content of the box is the only thing that will allow us to make sense of all the theories and equations (unification). But they can't get it with the empirical approach. The empirical approach is about finding things by experience, trial and error. It is a choice we made long ago between knowing and doing. The empirical test is not just the proof of a theory. It is before all a practical demonstration of control over some segment of the universe and this control provides the illusion that we understand what we are doing. We don't.

The metaphysical and logical understanding of the universe is accessible, understandable and necessary for us to progress beyond the limits of physics. It is certain that this metaphysics still has to be engineered back into physics in order to produce something new and practical in our reality.

Marcel,

  • [deleted]

From one of my favorite people: "Mind can see that reality is evoluting into weightless metaphysics. The wellspring of reality is the family of weightless generalized principles." Buckminster Fuller - Synergetics, pg.xxxi

a month later
  • [deleted]

Hi Marcel. How would your essay account for the following, as the below is crucial to a proper understanding of the relationship/limits of physics in relation to thought and experience in general.

Since dreams make thought more like sensory experience (including gravity and electromagnetism/light) in general, the idea of "how space manifests as electromagnetic/gravitational energy" is not only demonstrated in dreams (as I have shown), but this idea is then ALSO understood to be NECESSARILY central to an improved understanding of physics/experience in general.

According to Jonathan Dickau, my idea of "how space manifests as electromagnetic/gravitational energy" is "right on" as a central and valuable idea/concept in physics.

Also, how do you account for the following:

Do you understand the GIGANTIC significance of the following three statements taken together?:

1) The ability of thought to describe OR reconfigure sense is ultimately dependent upon the extent to which thought is similar to sensory experience.

2) Dreams involve a fundamental integration AND spreading of being, experience, and thought at the [gravitational and electromagnetic] MID-RANGE of feeling BETWEEN thought AND sense.

3) Dreams make thought more like sensory experience IN GENERAL (including gravity and electromagnetism).

Now, also consider the following:

These are the essential parameters/requirements regarding the demonstration/proof of what is ultimately possible in physics.

1) Making thought more like sensory experience in general.

2) Space manifesting as gravitational/electromagnetic energy.

3) Balancing/uniting scale.

4) Exhibiting/demonstrating particle/wave.

5) Repulsive/attractive.

What is ultimately possible in physics cannot (and should not) be properly/fully understood apart from this great truth:

The ability of thought to describe OR reconfigure sense is ultimately dependent upon the extent to which thought is similar to sensory experience.

FQXi -- Stop deleting my posts.

16 days later

Frank,

You say,

"The ability of thought to describe OR reconfigure sense is ultimately dependent upon the extent to which thought is similar to sensory experience."

- It is well known that our mind transforms heavily the signals from our senses to create the experience of reality. What you see is what you get, but not what you have.

- My essay shows that the universe is, at the metaphysical level, a monism; one substance and one cause. In this way, the processes of thinking are using the same substance and cause to operate i.e. the same principles as the universe does. But this is no surprise since we all understand that we are also part of the universe ...(This is probably why most people do not share your enthusiasm over these statements).

- In general I leave consciousness, dreams and thinking processes to psychologist and neurobiologists.... I leave the whole process as a black box for them to peak into. So, I separate all these activities from actual physics

and natural metaphysics.

MIND --- experience (Physics) ---- underlying reality (natural metaphysics).

I work on the two on the right leaving the mysteries of the mind to others...(for now :-)

Thanks,

Marcel,

8 days later
  • [deleted]

Hello dear Mr LeBel,

Nice to know you .

you say ... the "disunity" in physics is not a problem as you think it is, if you understand that they are just different truth systems.

I think you confound the foundamentals with the sciences fiction .The quest of the truth is not a play where the imaginaries are always the driving forces .No an universality is an universality .I think what many confounds the 3D and its spirituality of universality and the unknew ,they try to encircle an imossible thing to encircle .They shall be more satisfied if they focus on the physicality and the sciences of the life .

You say ...The metaphysical and logical understanding of the universe is accessible

False too ,only the physicalitty gives a road to encircle the unknew ,only by this ,a contemplation of the creations,it doesn't exist a system in the physicality to encircle above our 3D .It is thus a lost of time ,a wind ,a joke ,perhaps even a business and that is all .Why scientists want to go so far ,I am persuaded they don't know even the name of a flower or an animal .The biological lifes show us the physicality and its aim .Our aim as humans as catalyzers of the harmony is to act in this equation .Not to loose their time ,in "not necessary extrapolations"

You say " Understanding is about knowing the logic behind the existence and evolution of the universe."

Sorry but that has no sense for me that .I repeat only 3D .

Best Regards

Steve

Dear Marcel,

I somehow missed reading your essay during the contest period. I would have voted for you had I read it. I recently saw some of your comments on Tegmark's "Mathematical Universe" thread, which caused me to come back to your essay.

Your paper naturally divides into two parts: natural philosophy and physics.

Your treatment of natural philosophy is masterful. I have never seen your perspective on truth before, and I found it very enlightening!

Your essay is wonderful. The first half is so clear but the second half is more confused. To the unbiased observer, this would seem to indicate that the first half is 'true' while the second half was based on a false choice. I believe that this is your choice of 'time' as the 'fluid substance' that your first half implies as the basis of the universe. But I am not an unbiased observer -- because I believe that the 'fluid substance' that is the basis of our universe is gravity, or more properly the gravito-magnetic field.

In my essay I claim that this field is sufficient to account for the physical universe, as we know it. I go further to attach an interpretation to the 'magnetic' part of the gravity field, that of consciousness, but even if this interpretation is rejected, the theory still accounts for all of the known particles, the basic universal constants, the inflationary force, the logical character of this substance, and much more (everything else!).

Because the first thing you pull into your theory (after time) is gravity, I ask you to 'willingly suspend your disbelief' and consider that the gravitational field is the 'fluid substance' from which the universe is built. The field has energy (Maxwell) and hence mass (Einstein) and the self-interacting vortices in the field essentially condense into particles, from which the rest of our universe has evolved.

Marcel, if possible, I would have taken your first five pages and appended my essay to it. Yours is so beautiful and of course I believe that mine answers more fundamental questions of physics than other essays. But your metaphysical reasoning is superb.

As is illustrated many times in these comments, by the time someone develops their ideas sufficiently to be able to submit a qualified, original, essay to a contest like this, they are pretty much wedded to their ideas. That's quite natural.

But I hope that you will consider the fact that others have admired the first half of your essay, while arguing with the choice of 'time' in the second half, to attempt a fresh look at the problem. I invite you to study my essay (and associated comment thread) as a logical extension of your wonderful metaphysics.

Because the first thing you do after your choice of time is to incorporate gravity, you may be amenable to consider starting with the gravity field, and choosing it as the difference between 'something exists and nothing exists'.

You also state that it is postulation of an impossibility, or a 'limit' that revolutionizes physics. In my essay it is the limit to the curvature of a gravitational vortex in space-time that brings about a new phenomenon, the electromagnetic field, and establishes the basis of charged particles. Everything else depends from these constituents, ALL of which are simply 'phases' of the primordial monistic substance.

For an exposition of this, see my essay.

For example, from the Quantum Flow Principle, I derive three compatible physical possibilities. If, according to your exposition, these are to be found in a single truth system, they must be self-consistent. Since the term defines a value in each system, the value must be the same. This turns out to be Planck's constant (in reality) and the relation specializes to Heisenberg's uncertainty relations in addition to other consequences, such as the quantization of angular momentum, mvr = h.

Elsewhere I show how logic arises from physical construction; silicon, protein, neural (or other) and the fact that such logic, regardless of implementation or instantiation, gives no choice in its operation clearly defines a central character of the physical universe, ie, it supports logic.

Marcel, I find your discussion of gravity and time very interesting, and wonder if, from a monistic gravito-magnetic substance, you could not derive similar, but perhaps new and insightful relations. Else you seem to be faced with the problem of explaining particles, inflation, etc, etc. I would love to hear your thinking on this.

As you state, we make choices in order to proceed with a new theory, whatever the reasons for our choices. For example, I had decided, after long consideration, that consciousness was best represented by a field, and, since my consciousness interacts with the physical universe, I decided there must be a force equation (no matter how unlikely this has always seemed to me!). It did not take long to find a reasonable, or at least interesting guess for the form of this equation, which I did 3 Jan 06, exactly 4 years ago. Since then it has been cornucopia! No end of results and explanations of current mysteries have flowed from this choice, and not one contradiction in four years.

Thank you for such a clear exposition of truth as the absence of choice. I will quote you and paraphrase you in the future. You have made a major contribution to my thinking.

With my compliments,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

  • [deleted]

Hi dear Mr Klingman and dear Marcel ,

I d like insist on the fact what I don't critic the universality of a person ,just the physics models .

I liked a lot reading your essay Mr Klingmann ,and yours too Mr Le Bel in a phylosophical point of vue .

That said ,I am frank ,I don't encircle the necessities to extrapolate extradimensions ,or hidden variables .....We can say all what we have our limits due to our young age at the universal scale .This reality must be inserted in all models ,it is that the relativity in fact .

We know all what we have our limits and walls .

About the gravito magnetism ,there it is very relevant if the referenatial is in 3D ,the velocity of rotations and the synchronizations more the volumes and the senses and directions .....thus can imply a specific rule .The evolution takes all its sense with these polarisations between gravity and light .

The quantum architecture is in 3D and a time constant ,it is essential in my opinion .This system is like that since the begining of the physicality it seems to me.

Best Regards

Steve

5 days later

Dear Mr Klingman,

Sorry for taken so long to answer. As you have noticed, I am strolling around in various blogs, forums etc. where you in fact have been in contact with my ideas.

- As shown by my logical creation of the universe, time was not a choice but rather a necessity.

- the monism is not by choice as well. This monism prevents anything but time to exist.

Your choice of gravitation is the physicality closest to my theory of time. But, as `Bill Unruh describes it, gravity is our own experience of time... so time is more fundamental than gravity..citation follows:

"A more accurate way of summarizing the lessons of General Relativity is

that gravity does not cause time to run differently in different places (e.g., faster far from

the earth than near it). Gravity is the unequable flow of time from place to place. It is not

that there are two separate phenomena, namely gravity and time and that the one, gravity,

affects the other. Rather the theory states that the phenomena we usually ascribe to gravity

are actually caused by time's flowing unequably from place to place.

Time, Gravity, and Quantum Mechanics, W. G. Unruh

CIAR Cosmology Program, Dept. of Physics, University of B. C., Vancouver, Canada V6T 2A6"

- Other also told me of this "second" part which confusion, I am not sure, is either in my own writing or is in the rejection of the mind of the reader. Gravity is still physics while my second part remains metaphysical.

Your theory may be internally consistent and a new way to describe physics. My goal was specifically not to find a new (another) physical description but rather a logical understanding in the absence of an observer.

My path is about logic and metaphysics. I leave particles and inflation to others...

Me, it was some day in February 1998 at 5.00 am. I woke up realizing I could understand gravitation as a logical operation, logical as in "spontaneous". It has been also a Cornucopia of discoveries... of the metaphysical kind.

((I don't mix consciousness anywhere in my discourse. It is certain, in a monistic universe, that time plays a role in it. But it is not my concern right now.)) All this was possible simply by admitting that something has to exist somewhere, by itself outside our usual physical approach. Following the logical consequences lead to more details. I think you theory could be the closest to mine while remaining `physics`.

I will download and read your essay and comment later.

Thanks,

Marcel,

Dear Marcel,

No problem with time to answer, we're all busy, but thanks for answering. I am still in love with the first half of your essay, and wish to again express my appreciation for your clarity and coherence in your view of truth.

I will study your reply above and comment if I find anything to say. I also very much appreciate your comments on other threads, such as Tegmark's Mathematical Universe. If you care to point me to other places you are commenting, I'd be happy to study those as well. I still regret not finding your essay until after the contest closed. I kicked a number of people up to 4.0 and some of them stayed there.

I am glad you will read my essay. Although the ten pages barely represent the tip of the iceberg, it still gives you an idea of the theory. The consequences that fall out of the theory fill over a thousand pages. And, most importantly, make predictions and explain physical phenomena that are currently unexplained.

"My path is about logic and metaphysics. I leave particles and inflation to others..."

My concern too is logic and meta-physics, but I believe that logic implies the nature of the physical world, and therefore the particles and inflation must fall out of the logic. They can't be just added as an afterthought.

I've read your essay at least three or four times, and hope that you find time to absorb mine before you comment. I am very much interested in your comments.

Looking forward to your reply,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

9 days later

Dr Klingman,

I have read your essay. Maybe its me, but there is like too much in it. One or two aspects driven and demonstrated could have been enough for now. I am not familiar with quite a few concepts in there, so it makes the reading difficult. I still think you have something good going here. You end by saying that we will never know gravity. Yes, this is the limit of physics, but it is also the beginning of metaphysics. Magnetic, electric and gravitation are all aspect of a single substance; the explosive passage of time. No matters how true my metaphysics is, we will have to use it to formulate some physics of equivalence if we want to make something useful out of it. Your theory/approach is possibly the closest thing to such a principle of equivalence.

Thanks,

Marcel,

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