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Hope what the physics shall help this planet ,it's essential in my opinion .

I imagine the collaboration focus on priorities for our fellow man .

Let's imagine ,Lawrence ,Florin ,Dr. Giovanni Amelino-Camelia,Super Dr Cosmic Ray,Jason the creative ,Georgina ,Dr Corda ,Mr Smith ,Mr Johnstone,Brian ,Amrit,Ben Baten ,...I am persuaded what we can invent many concrete systems to improve the quality of life towards a prosperity .

They need helps .....and the scientists are so so important .

I wouldn't hurt anybody ,just catalyze a little .Sorry if I have been too arrogant .

I respect all of you ,be sure ,I am always impressioned by your capacities and potentials .

Take care all

Sincerely

Steve

Dear Giovanni,

I do not think faith has anything at all to do with the motivation for looking for a unified theory. The reason I continue to look for it is that the theories of fundamental Physics as we know it are very similar to one another, all of them are classically just differential geometry, and curvature is always the fundamental variable. The three branches of theoretical Physics, relativity, gauge theory and dirac theory of fermions correspond to the tangent bundles of manifolds, abstract bundles, and spin bundles. This is such a strong formal coincidence that looking for a common unifying structure is natural.

In his infamous book on gravity, Feynman said it was a miracle Einstein found the exact lagrangian, then went on to say the similar methods couldnt possibly apply to matter. The advent of Yang Mills theory was only a few years away when he said this. So fancy schmancy mathematics isnt such a bad idea after all.

Having a TOE doesnt make the world less full of mystery. Complex systems have emergent phenomena which cannot be deduced from the underlying physical laws.

For many purposes Faraday's "electric theory of matter" is already a unified theory. Does the fact that lightning and chemistry have the same underlying force mean the world is any simpler?

So no, I dont think Physicists are motivated by faith at all.

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Hello Mr Crane and Dr. Giovanni Amelino-Camelia,

I agree Mr Crane ,it's well said and well resumed.All fundamenatls Theories shall rest ,are unified and shall evolve too towards this ultim unification with our evolution time of course.

Sincerely

Steve

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Faith is funadamental to science as to any other human activity. Tying to religion is just a matter of mind for some who may have developed allergy to religions as these were considered opposed to science. it is not true in Asian continent where the religions never oppesed search for truth by any means, science was lauded and encouraged. Faith boosts the energy and consciousness leevls of any individual and provides one enthusiasm and vigour to persue the search for truth. Personally i rate the developments in Physics to be dependent on three pillars, concepts/precepts,experimetal observations and mathematical theory. The latter two are mere tools while the first provides the basic ground work for the understanding. It comes out of a discerning mind that is disciplined and unbiased, capable of independent thinking. It is here that consciousness gets involved too.

May we all ma

' ... The outside world is something independent from man, something absolute ...'

If the universe creates itself out of nothing and continues to do so, then the sum of everything inside of it, including spacetime itself has somehow to remain nil, so things certainly do not have an absolute kind of existence, a reality outside the universe -the 'somehow' being the main subject of physics. If (see Mechanics of a Self-Creating Universe) particles, stars and galaxies create each other and so only exist to each other as far as they interact or keep exchanging the energy they need to exist, then they have no absolute existence, no reality outside of interactions, outside their universe. The idea that an object can have an absolute kind of reality, as if there's some higher realm, some authority outside the universe to whom it exists and can be observed is a purely religious notion. Anyhow, since we consist of particles, the 'outside world' is not completely independent from us, hence Schrödinger's cat.

' ... Our present formulation of the fundamental laws of physics is inapplicable to contexts in which both quantum mechanics and general relativity play a non-negligible role (...) that quantum mechanics and general relativity both played crucial roles at the big bang...'

The reason for this inapplicability is that general relativity is a classic theory, formulated around the notion that objects do have such an absolute kind of existence, that is: that the mass of particles only is the source of their interactions and not (as quantum field theory in fact says) also their product. Besides the universe having no need for a bang to get started (so there isn't even a singularity where the two theories can clash), the mass definition I propose seems to have all basic elements to build a relativity theory with quantummechanics at its heart and so is free from the flaws of the present version. The problem, then, is that we believe the mass of particles to have an interaction-independent component, as if there's an unassailable holiest of holy inside the particles which cannot be affected in any way, and which indeed would create black holes with finite horizon diameters, with sigularities at their center. If, however, the mass of particles is as much the product as the source of their interactions, then there can be no singularity, no points of infinite density and zero volume, nor can the hole have a finite horizon diameter. Though the mass density of objects may have no limit, the density of any real object has a finite value.

'...From "within" each doll it should only be possible to get information on neighboring dolls ...'

If particles to keep existing, keep exchanging energy, then with this exchange they communicate all information about all particles in their universe, so a particle, like a hologramfragment, contains all data of the whole, be it that this information is less definite, more vague the smaller the fragment is.

'... an effect of gradual saturation of our ability to uncover new phenomena (...) the substantial lack of progress ... of the last quarter of a century...'

To me the origin of this 'saturation' seems to lie in our excessive respect for ideas and concepts which may have passed their sell-by date, in our aversion to leave the comfort of our belief in the gospel truth as proclaimed by our revered patriarchs of physics, in our lazyness or lack of imagination. If what has been useful in simpler times now obstructs its development and has become cause of our misery, then physics perhaps needs an overhaul which doesn't spare cherished concepts like those of charge and antiparticles, of the idea that gravity is exclusively attractive. As outdated ideas produce inconsistent theories, we perhaps construct problems which nature itself isn't aware of, problems we cannot solve as we created them ourselves and in the process cultivate the idea that the universe itself is impossibly complicated, as if it had to get at least a PhD in physics before being able to create itself.

The job Copernicus started apparently is far from finished: after acknowledging that every point is at the center of its own universe, part two is to finally admit that as there's no clock outside the universe, no point from which unambiguously can be determined what precedes what, the concept of causality has become useless in physics. Only in a universe produced by some outside intervention things can have an absolute kind of reality, an interaction-independent existence, being only related by having the same creator, their behaviour more a kind of side-effect of the properties they've been provided with rather than related to the need, the effort to keep existing themselves. In a universe where things create each other, they are far stronger related than causality can account for.

8 days later

Giovanni

A well written essay. But there is a well known syndrome in history. When war breaks out the generals tend to refight the previous war; i.e. the war they experienced first hand as junior commanders in the front line. The war that is over.

While I agree that there are always individuals with the Alexander/Caesar/Napoleon complex who believe they can conquer the whole universe, the TOE war ended a long time ago. Hawking surrendered many years ago. Weinberg has (almost) faded gracefully from the scene. Davies, who through his popularisations did more to promote the concept than any other individual, has Talleyrand like emerged unscathed. Having a good nose for where the action is, he has moved on - beyond physics.

You are refighting a war that is over while the new war thunders around our ears. The front line is Emergence versus Reductionism. Old war horses like Weinberg are urging on the reductionists. Emergentists such as Laughlin are posing challenges that threaten to overwhelm them. If they do and if Biologists or Cognitive Scientists get the upper hand in the Consciousness battle, then physics as the fundamental science, with or without the Higgs will, have to surrender its sovereign power. It will become a backwater of science.

University enrolments already confirm this. Apart from emphasisng a basic fact of human psychology that some of us have delusions of grandeur, your essay is about the recent past of physics; not its ultimate future.

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Hi Giovanni,

A very interesting and well written essay, though it meanders around the actual answer to the question what is possible in physics. If I apply some good will, what you are arguing could be summarized as since we'll never know whether a "TOE" is really a theory of everything, we can't conclude from it what's possible or not, even if we had it. Which is basically what I said in my essay :-)

Anyway, what is more in the focus of your essay is the accusation that those researchers who strive to find a theory of everything are lead by faith and not by rationality. Well, I can't exclude that this is indeed the case for some physicists, but it doesn't match with my experience. There are just researchers who think mathematical consistency is the better guide, and there are researchers that believe testability is the better guide. And there have to be people of both kinds. You write

"Over the last decade a small community of quantum-gravity phenomenologists has found ways to devise data analyses that provide genuine Planck-scale sensitivity, at least for a few effects that could plausibly characterize the quantum gravity realm."

Yet, you are just hiding your own "faith" in the word "plausible," which expresses your own "believe". I am very sure the the majority of our colleagues would disagree on the "plausibility of this Planck-scale sensitivity". And why is that? Because the approaches you are referring to lack mathematical consistency, but let's not dwell too much on that here. Research being what it is, we don't know which criterion is eventually the more useful one. It might very well be that your colleagues are right and once they have sorted out the maths, they will be able to make a strikingly correct prediction. It might very well be you are right and it's more useful to demand predictions first, even on the expenses of mathematical consistency. But neither of both is more than an expression of personal opinion, possibly spiced up with anecdotes from the history of science.

And as Louis said above, even if there was a TOE as in a final fundamental theory (though we could never prove it is), this wouldn't mean the end of physics, since it is far from clear - in fact even doubtful - we would be able to derive all emergent features we observe from that theory. I commented on that in my essay. It would just mean that the "frontier of knowledge" shifts elsewhere and physics recalibrates its direction, and many other fields of science have done throughout the centuries. Best,

Sabine

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Oh, forgot: your mentioning of an "ultimate theory of not everything" with the infinite series of nesting dolls is the same as Paul Davies' infinite tower of turtles (as in contrast to the levitating superturtle). I commented on that in my post Turtles all the way up.

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May be my Sept 28 post is not worth any significance to to the author of thr essay. i need be responded to in that case. My apologies.the end part of that posting seems to have gotten erased and i have no way to reconstruct it now.

Dear Giovanni Amelino-Camelia,

In my understanding that the formalisation of TOE is the ultimate evolutionary probabilities of physics, in that all theories of not everything to be generalised in fairness principles, is the objective you have described in this article, am I right. I fully agree that there is no end for ultimate physics as there is major constrains on quantification of gravity for the interpolation of scale transformation in renormalization.

The Coherent-cyclic cluster-matter universe model also have fine structure constant problem same as in Lambda-CDM model of cosmology. The inability of this model to describe the origin of dynamics of the universe is also states the same that there is no end for ultimate physics. Thank you..

With best wishes,

Jayakar

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Fortunally Mr Crane arranges the squarisation ...

"Having a TOE doesnt make the world less full of mystery. Complex systems have emergent phenomena which cannot be deduced from the underlying physical laws."

Always full of mysteries due to our EVOLUTION ....bzzzzzzzzz the fly of the bee without name .Apis vulgaris thus hihihihi let's smile a little .

I repeat too a fundamenatl theory evolves and rest .....never confound ...

Steve vespa spherica ,hymenoptera in spherisation hihihi

Giovanni:

Thank you for a fine paper, relating your key points with superb clarity. I have long felt that the most ill-informed statement a physicist could make in front of virtually any audience (and I have seen this more times than I can count, particularly when someone announces a result which is relatively singular in nature anyway) is "of course, once we have a complete picture of nature..." (usually implying that this is just over the horizon).

I also felt that you raised some key epistemological issues, and that particularly from the standpoint of category theory, there are deep flaws in the "theory of everything" approach which lend it the flavor, ab initio, of an impossible enterprise. Not only is there the whole compass of the Hilbert/Gödel debate here, but I like the way your paper reveals the hidden infinite regress in the theory of everything approach. T.O.E.'s contain far too many assumptions about mapable, known and knowable categories, most of which, as you so succinctly point out are either unnecessary for the enterprise of scientific discovery, or are downright inimical to it. The TOE approach is also one which if I might verge on the self-referential, "promiscuously mixes language and meta-language" and by extension improperly mixes or creates ill-defined relationships between scientific method or framework and results.

Cheers,

Phil

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Hi all ,

When I read the essay on this thread ,I was happy to see in fact the sense of this work .Never a theory is finished ,it's a good analyze indeed because we are youngs at the universal scale .Thus I agree.

On the other side this kind of essay is a little too personal and a lack of universality is present .

I think what like in all centers of interest ,a balance is necessary for a whole point of vue evidently .

The quest of the truth isn't a play but a real work where all is balanced in correlation with our 3D laws and the time constant .

The faith is an universality and permits to encircle our rule of human like catalyzers of our ecosystems .I insist on the difference about the human inventions and the universal creations and fundamentals .Our eyes show us the reality which evolves like all .

In the research of the truth ,many theories are falses but some are trues ,there the difference with the reals and imaginaries are essentials .

The philosophy is an universality where ineteracts the fundamentals .

Kinds Regards

Steve

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hihihi I know now ,it's sabine ,the bee ,hihihi ,mu curiosity helped me a little .It's a bad habit for me ,it's not a bad habit in fact ,it's well to be curious I think ,without that we know nothing in fact hihih

I am going to read your paper ,I am nice you know ,bizare sometimes but pragmatic and nice hihihi

Hope I will be quiet ,I take my medicaments you know ,let's go stevi some neuroleptic to stabilize your hormons hihihih

Let's laugh a little dear friends ,it's good for health ,sciences ,faith ,universality and laughs = eureka

Regards

Steve

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Fundamental sciences should have reached maturity. Thomas Eagar listed all novelties in his discipline for intervals of five years each. After a period of acceleration, the number of essential contributions reached a climax and fell to zero while simultaneously the number of conferences, publications etc. continued to grow.

Let's hope for revealing very basic mistakes. I consider the chance pretty high. Why? I do not hate but I love contradictions, ambiguities, non-causalities, and signs of arbitrary instead of natural decisions.

Given, mathematics will abandon Cantor's aleph_2. The world would certainly not immediately benefit much from such overdue correction. Bad ghosts and white holes are likewise irrelevant. After how many years can the presumably negative outcome of LHC's search for SUSY be judged? I do not suspect a flaw of everything, just an almost ubiquitous trifle.

I agree with Uncle Al: Any science has to be based on the traditional concept of causality while, in particular, rigorous mathematical formalism can be unfair.

Eckard

Greetings Giovanni,

I enjoyed your essay and have quite a few points of agreement in my own contest essay. I argue that instead of looking for a single theory to knit our world-view together, we should be looking for a broader framework, and using as connecting pieces many bits of knowledge we already have.

A lot of people feel it's important to find that one theory which, by its rightness, excludes the possibility for any other theory to be correct. I am instead of the opinion that; if there are a number of well-framed theories, all pointing to a similar result, this is compelling evidence that what they point at is something important to examine or investigate. I am at a loss to see why people would want just one working description. I explore the opposite extreme in my paper.

I think each step in the ladder of theoretical understanding is important, as your essay also indicates. But my essay stresses that we should be attentive to developing broader frameworks for our knowledge, instead of looking for TOEs prematurely. My idea is that the search for Quantum Gravity has been too driven by what you refer to as the TOE mentality, and preventing us from discovering the road to ultimate unification. I based my essay on a couple of articles I'd written more than 10 years ago, and it appeared that not much had changed since then.

I'm glad to hear that there is some progress on testable Quantum Gravity formulations. Are you familiar with the Relativistic QM experiments being conducted with Graphene? I can look up a reference.

I may have a few more comments or questions, but that's all I have time for now.

All the Best,

Jonathan J. Dickau

Dear Giovanni,

While insisting that the end of fundamental physics is nowhere in sight, you do acknowledge the "recent standstill", ie, the lack of new discoveries. If, as I believe will be the case, there will be neither Higgs nor new particles found at the LHC, then the end may be closer than you think. I am assuming that by fundamental physics you mean particle physics, and that a TOE means only that it is consistent with all currently available experimental data.

You seem to view this as the end of the world, and a desire for a 'theory of everything' as almost evil. You ask "who could want that", referring to the end of fundamental particle physics. I assure that many tax-payers would want it, but I also believe that many physicists would far prefer a theory that led to true comprehension of the nature of the universe versus the eventual end of fundamental physics due to a "saturation" in our ability to discover more and more things. (Physics as consumption?) Perhaps the CERN and LHC workers resist such a notion, but I wouldn't be surprised to find your view a minority one among all physicists. I believe that more people enter physics in a search for understanding than to pursue an endless rat-race of data acquisition/particle collection.

Other commenters above have touched on several of these themes, including your "faith" in your approach, clearly derived from your personal desires. As one stricken with the "theory of everything" virus, I prefer an ultimate understanding to an eternal quest. I would deem it "unfair" if such were denied mankind, in favor of an endless accumulation of facts.

As to the feasibility of such a TOE, assume for a moment that nothing new is discovered at the LHC. Does that mean we're stuck with the Standard Model? Not on your life. The lack of a Higgs almost guarantees that QCD is wrong, even nonsense. Most current views are those formed beginning in 1900 when only alpha, beta, and gamma rays were known, and Planck's constant. The experimental and theoretical tools imposed a framework that was necessary to model "point" particles slammed from minus infinity and measured at plus infinity. Second quantized creation/annihilation operators and symmetry/matrix analysis techniques were favored as tools for discovering collision products. But if the particle zoo is complete, new 'non-point' analysis techniques may be possible, so that "looking back" from 2000 becomes completely different than "looking forward" from 1900. That is, the tools of explanation may be vastly different from the tools of discovery.

If there are no new particles found, what would a new theory do? It would resolve/explain the many mysteries currently existing in particle physics and cosmology. How could the Standard Model achieve so much and yet be drastically wrong? In the same way that you describe how Fermi's 4-point model, while completely missing bosons, still managed to "describe and predict several weak-interaction processes."

A poor analogy, but not completely useless, may be to consider the search for fundamental particles as analogous to the search in biology, pre-1950, for proteins. Today we believe the human is made up of about thirty thousand different proteins, so let's be generous and grant you thirty thousand more fundamental particles to be discovered as we progress to the Planck realms. Discovering all of these proteins would have been of questionable value, but the discovery of the DNA structure and mechanism was ultimately valuable. We don't need to discover any more fundamental particles. We need a DNA-equivalent idea.

Finally, you remark that a Theory of Everything would endow us with God-like powers. It's hard to know just what you mean but I assume you are referring to ultimate engineering capabilities, which may or may not follow. Others have remarked that 100 percent explanatory power does not necessarily mean 100 percent predictive power. Emergent phenomena tend to resist prediction, and the most interesting physics of biology and even materials science are truly complex in comparison to fundamental particles, and the "discovery" which you lament as missing will still occur in these fields.

It may be that your remark about God-like powers is due to your imagining a Reductionist fantasy, whereby everything, matter, life, consciousness is derived from elementary building blocks (a la Lego). For an alternative possibility, read my essay, but if you vote, please don't shoot the messenger.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

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i tend to agree with the brief comment of Edwin Klingman. The simpler the theory the more likely it will enhance Physics, provided the concepts/ precepts have been chosen in consistency with the study of Nature done thus far.

12 days later
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A nice bit of fun Giovanni, some light relief, but well expressed. I really can't see us running out of mountains to climb. Especially with a complete new range now in sight. You really must go to the 'Perfect Symmetry' essay by Peter Jackson and do some exploration through the layers and links. Very few have seen it so far but there's a well of holy grail hidden there. I think you may be the man to find it.

To the future

Aaron

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Giovanni,

A very good treatment of the wider aspects of a TOE. I liked its combination of science and humanism with both taken to a deep level.

Have some fun and take a look at this effort at extending the wonderfully ugly "old quantum theory" at: http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/514

This theory will definitely not bring an end to physics :)

Wishing you the best in this contest,

Don L.