Spacetime and Matter - a duality of partial orders by Hans-Thomas Elze

Dear Hans-Thomas Elze,

I have found another essay, which admits the real existence of space-time. (There are many essays at competition that denies the existence of space-time.) My theory also is based on quantum structure of space-time. I agree that space-time and matter must reflect each others atomistic structure.

Imagine a space-time consisting of atoms (elementary volumes dV) that appears and disappears continually. If the elementary volume disappears then a vacant place must appear (a hole in space-time). This hole must collapse quickly because one does not possess extension and duration properties. In other words, a hole is filled by surrounding atoms. Since the speed of motion is limited by the speed of light, the environment cannot fill hole instantly. Therefore the lifetime of hole is non-zero. Holes in space-time must really exist if space-time has quantum structure.

Sincerely, Leshan

Dear Hans-Thomas,

I was glad to see your essay submission to the FQXi contest.

Oddly enough, the end of your essay has some resemblance with my essay. In my essay, based on A.P. Kirilyuk's fundamental work, you can find a state equation (2.1), which resembles your equation (7). However, (2.1) does not presuppose space or time, or known details of the Hamiltonians or the (attractive) interaction potential. Even without assuming any detailed knowledge of those entities, analysis of the state equation shows that quantum behavior dynamically emerges/exists. In particular, discrete time and space emerges in a unified continuous dynamic process that is described quantitatively by the relativistic invariant expression (2.2).

I must admit that my essay is probably not the best format to describe a theory. Consequently, I had to limit myself to highlight particular aspects only, resulting in some artificial shortcuts. However, the details of the theory can be found in the quoted references, on my website, and extra notes on the page where you can find my essay.

Best regards,

Ben Baten

Dear Hans-Thomas

You mention in your essay "slices of space-time".

I do not see and no one has provided experimental data slices of space-time being physical reality. Might be this is merely a math model. Recent research on brain shows that space-time is a brain map, we can talk about neuronal space-time.

According to my research we have to distinguish between math space-time, neuronal space-time and timeless quantum space that is physical reality in which clocks run.

yours amritAttachment #1: 3_MATHEMATICAL_SPACETIME__NEURONAL_SPACETIME_AND_TIMELESS_QUANTUM_SPACE_arXiv.doc

Dear Hans-Thomas

Yes, it is interesting article. I agree with you, about the deep structure of space-time. I think there must be a deep space-time, and this deep structure is responsible for the existence of the complex wave and the particle features in Quantum mechanics. In other word, that hidden existence may be the unified foundation for both Quantum mechanics and Special relativity. The standard Model of elementary particle is quantum version of Mendeleev element periodical table. The discovery of the atom structure has revealed the secret of the periodical table. So if there is no deep space-time, what is behind the particle-wave duality and the standard model? This may be a blasphemy for van Neumann gospel.

However, owing to that probing problem, physics confronts the ultimate limit, and all works beyond that will be speculative. Please note my essay.

Mohammed Sanduk

Dear Hans-Thomas

A limit of physics we have to pass is idea of space-time being physical reality. Quantum space is timeless. Gravity is result of curvature of timeless quantum space. More mass is in a given volume of quantum space more space is curved. Curvature of quantum space depends on its density. More mass is in given volume of quantum space, less space is dense and more is curved. Density of quantum space Ds in a centre of massive object is Ds = 1/m, where m is a mass of stellar object.

Fg = G/Ds1 x Ds2 x r on square (1)

Gravity works between quanta of space and is immediate. Because of that in the formula (1) above there is no symbol t that means thick of clock. Less is density Ds of quantum space, higher is curvature and stronger are gravity forces between quanta of space.

mass --lover density of quantum space -- higher curvature -- stronger gravity

In a centre of neutron stars and black holes density of space is extremely low and density of mass is extremely high. In centre of neutron stars and black holes matter is transforming back into quanta of space. In a centre of galaxies AGN density of quantum space is extremely high, density of mass is extremely low. In AGN quanta of space are transforming into elementary particles that build up matter. Astronomical observations show that the Active Galactic Nucleus (AGN) of our galaxy "eats" near stars and galaxies and from time to time throws out huge amounts of fresh gas.

Transformation of mass into space and opposite is constant and in a dynamic equilibrium. This transformation is eternal, has no beginning and no end. Universe is a non-created system in a permanent dynamic equilibrium.

In the universe as a whole density of mass and density of space are in dynamic equilibrium.

Relation between mass and energy E of quantum space is expressed in Einstein formula: E = m x c on square

Mass does not emit or absorb some hypothetical gravitational waves in a similar wax as electromagnetic waves. Gravitational waves emitted from mass are fictitious entities.

Gravitational wave as a ripple of quantum space is a change of density Ds of quantum space that happens by transformations and expands through quantum space with a light speed. Astronomical observations of diminishing of speed of rotation (orbit time) of binary neutron stars PSR1913+16 is here explained by transformation of mass of stars into quanta of space.Attachment #1: 1_TIMELLESS_QUANTUM_SPACE.doc

i feel fascinated by the curvature aspect of space time continuum where singularities signify the generation of matter and energy associated with it. What may happen if the curvature smoothness gets distorted temporarily? Does it not generate mass/energy. Thus, the concept of space and time becomes fundamantal in the understanding of the physical universe. It simply does not matter wheather it is real or imaginary to a human being inside or outside of the physical universe.

Another aspect i wish to be enlightened by the author concerns the speed of light and its constancy aspect. In homogeneous space it is considered holy. Hwever, if a space ship is built with a technology that can make the spave ahead of it contract and the space behind expanded, the vehicle can certainly exceed the speed limit of c, as it is true only for homogeneous space.

Another point concerns some of the authors in this forum who consider irrelevance of time as essential to picture the universe. Timelessness to them is the truth about the universe, it is ony the objects within that chnage their position and it is there that the speed of change gets involved , not otherwise.

Dear Hans-Thomas

Quantum space is 4-dimensional, matter is 3-dimensional. Material objects exist and are somehow "captured" into quantum space in a similar way as 2-dimensional geometrical objects exist in 3-dimensional geometrical space. Presence of material objects is diminishing density of quantum space that is increasing its curvature. Curvature of quantum space generates gravity.

What is Dynamic equilibrium ?

I talk about "dynamic equilibrium" of density of quantum space and density of matter in the universe. Energy of quantum space and energy of matter are in dynamic equilibrium.

I would like to publish my article on arXiv because it opens new perspectives on the quantum space, entanglement and gravity as well.

As I'm an independent researcher there is no a famous professor of physics who would endorse me.

I hope through FQXI my research will be recognized as a valid perspective based on experimental data. In my article attached here all statements are based on elementary perception.

In today physics it is not so. There s no experimental evidence space-time being physical reality and still space-time is understood as fundamental arena of the universe.

Fundamental arena of the universe is timeless quantum space where physical time is run of clocks.

I would be happy to come to DICE conference and discus about this questions personally with you and other experts.

yous amritAttachment #1: 3_TIMELLESS_QUANTUM_SPACE.doc

Dear Hans-Thomas Elze

My essay is not about philosophy, it is about fundamental elements of physics that are two:

1. energy

2. change (motion)

Energy of the universe cannot be created and not destroyed. Energy is in a permanent change. IN AGN Energy of quantum space transforms into elementary particles, into energy of matter in black holes and neutron stars matter transforms back into quanta of space.

This process is permanent and timeless, does not run in time. Clocks are man inventions to measure change, i.e. frequency, velocity and numerical order of change.Change run in timeless quantum space. This is not philosophy, this is fundamental physics, based on elementary perception.

To think in terms of space-time being physical reality is philosophical, is not of physics as there is no experimental data of space-time being physical reality.

yours amrit

A very enjoyable, readable technical essay which moves us, in important ways, cloaser to understanding the endogenous generation of time, space-time and matter within the light cone. An excellent step on the road to better understading what have been historically difficult epistemological or ontological aspects of quantum mechanics (or quantum electrodynamics). I particularly liked the degree of precision here which did not demand an excessive reliance on either conventional wisdom or received doctrine and which nonetheless provided an innovative approach to deep problems.

Cheers,

Phil Fellman

Dear Hans-Thomas,

This is an interesting essay. I only skimmed it today. I need to reread it and think about it more. My essay defines all known fermions and bosons (plus many additional states consistent with your described transition from course-grained to finer-grained spacetime) within a multi-dimensional atomistic structure. Interestingly enough, I have also corresponded with some of the other authors on this blog site (Mohammed and Leshan) about how their ideas and my ideas may be complementary. Specifically, Leshan is dealing with "holes" in spacetime that must also have an atomistic structure. The natural assumption would be "if holes in spacetime have an atomistic structure, then spacetime itself must have an atomistic structure".

Let me think on your ideas for a couple of days - I may have more questions or observations.

Good luck in the contest!

Ray Munroe

Dear Hans-Thomas,

You talk about randomly stacking 1+1-D sheets together.

My geometrical TOE models also build on even numbers of dimensions, but they aren't randomly stacked, they are based on products of close-packing simplices (a simple example is: the tetrahedron is a 3-simplex, and this is the underlying structure of a Face Centered Cubic (FCC) close-packing lattice).

Reciprocal and dual lattices are also important in my models.

The 1+1-D base structure may be related to the quantions that Emile Grgin and Florin Moldoveanu have been talking about. Somehow this 1+1-D base structure pairs up (like twistor theory) to form a 3+1-D spacetime.

Good luck in the contest!

Ray Munroe

Dr Elze,

an noteworthy elaboration on causal sets. But I see two questionable points in your work. I would appreciate your comment on these.

1. You say it is difficult to believe that space-time can exist deprived of matter, but doesn't general relativity (GR) allow such solutions? In other words, your proposed duality cannot account for a full description of GR because it cannot lead to vacuum solutions in GR. To this end, even a Schwarzschild solution is a vacuum solution which certainly has a wide range of physical implications.

2. It's hard for me to understand your conceptual leap from a classical statistical ensemble described by a Liouville equation to a quantum mechanical state described by a von Neumann equation. Wasn't the main conceptual step of quantum mechanics the departure of the classical ensemble toward rays in Hilbert space? In general, such as for the movement of a charged particle, both lead to totally different and dynamics.