Lawrence

"Planck time" is the basic unit to measure numerical order of material change in the timeless universe. Material change have no duration. We give them sense of duration by measuring them. With clocks we primary measure numerical order of material change. We experience this measurment through inner linear time, so we experience "duration". Universe is running "here and now" in timeless space.

yours amrit

amrit,

Time is no more a point than it is a dimension. There is simply activity. If you try describing it as a point, that requires freezing the motion. So what is described as the present is a fuzzy presence.

To say there is no duration because time is not a dimension is changing the meaning of the word. There certainly has been duration from yesterday to today. There is no clear and absolute point of distinction where one ends and the other begins though.

Observation doesn't create time. The cause and effect of activity is the basis of thought. It is this feedback from our environment which is the basis of rationality. No telling where the ultimate essence of our consciousness comes from, but without the effect of activity, it would be a rather featureless state.

Space is the equilibrium state. Activity emerges as a disequilibrium. Time and temperature are effects of that disequilibrium. Life and observation are many more layers of emergence above that.

Amrit, So this means by dating dinosaur bones we impose the time frame of the mesozoic? Sorry, but this makes no real sense. I have a hard time thinking that the nature of the universe is dependent or constructed around our activities or observations.

LC

John and Lawrence

Dinosaur bones were discovered in timeless space. Animals themselves have been developed and have been lived in timeless space. Man was developed and live as a race in timeless space. You are born, you live and you will go away in the same timeles space.

Clock "thick" in this timeless space and show us numerical order of events.

Birth of grandma has nuber n, birth of son number n+30, birth of granson n+60.

An event can exists only in timeles space where there is no past and no future. In timeless space an event cannot have duration on its own as a physical reality.

Duration is result of measurment. Sure physical term of duration is correct. It is important to understand that with duration of an event is the same as with physical time itself. They both exist because of process of measurment.

Introduction of timeless space will tottaly change our vision of universe and life.

ZEN knows we are living in eternal now.

Idea of timeless space is bringing spirit of zen in physics.

Sometime I'm astonished myself what a new vision.

For few years I'm aware that duration of an event is a result of its measurment. The day I got that I was in shock: "In the Universe events have no duration ?" All is running into NOW ?

Yes, it is. And there is no contradiction in this vision.

IN TIMELLESS SPACE WE MEASURE WITH CLOCKS NUMERICAL ORDER OF EVENTS THAT HAVE NO DURATION ON ITS OWN. DURATION IS RESULT OF MEASURMENT WITH CLOCKS AS A REFERENCES SYSTEMS.

yours sincerely amrit

Amrit writes: You are born, you live and you will go away in the same timeles space.

It is interesting that in saying this you have to use tensed language.

Physics tells us nothing about whether time exists, or space for that matter. These are geometrical entities which have connection to clocks and rulers.

Cheers LC

amrit,

In that case, clocks have been around a lot longer than people.

You have to have something to measure, in order to measure. N+60 is sixty times the earth has circled the sun since N.

And N keeps receding further into the past with every moment.

Lawrence is used tensed language because physical past exist as a numerical order of change. "Before" and "after" has sense in numerical order measured with clocks.

John

We have "natural clocks". Planet earth rotation is a natural clock. It is important to understand that earth rotates in timeless space wheere therwe is no time. Our sense of duration is result of measurment. All universe is existing in timeless space that we experience as a present moment. As we experience timeless space through linear inner time we think that present moments follow one after other. This is pure illusion. Present moment is always the same. Eternity is now. Conscious observer is aware of that fact.

That fact will have an immence impact on entire humanity. People will "wake up" through proper understanding of time which leads into timelessness.

sincerely yours amrit

amrit,

That's the same general point I'm also making. Even the concept of "now" is a description of time, because it connotes a geometric point. There is only the physical field of energy in space and as it changes shape, it creates a flow of events. So to the extent there is the effect of time, it is emergent from the activity of this field, just as temperature is an emergent effect.

Our brains are divided into two hemispheres. The right brain is a parallel processor that is associated with emotion, while the left brain is a serial processor that is associated with intellect. Essentially the right brain is a thermostat that monitors and acts on variations of energy, while the left brain monitors and acts on causal relationships. Thus our rational side constructs reality as a series of events and the lessons learned from them, while our right side tends toward a non-linear and thus intuitive response.

John, you wrote: There is only the physical field of energy in space and as it changes shape, it creates a flow of events. So to the extent there is the effect of time, it is emergent from the activity of this field, just as temperature is an emergent effect.

Yes change of energy of timeless space and change of energy into timeless space creates flow of events.

No, physical time is not extent of flow of events.

PhysicalTime/ClockRun is invented reference measurment system for measuring flow of energy that creates change.

Yes, temperature is emergent effect of energy flow, time is not, no evidence for existence of such a time. Such a time is pure illusion, never observed, no data conforms it. There is no physical time behid clocks run.

sincerely yours amrit

I have a hard time honestly accepting this. Science is based on the idea thtat there exists a natural world independent of our observations. Further, relativity tells us that space and time tranform into each other depending upon a coordinate frame. So choosing a coordinate frame has the effect of transforming something which does not exist with something that does.

Cheers LC

Lawrence you say: Further, relativity tells us that space and time tranform into each other depending upon a coordinate frame.

Space transforminig in time ?

Do we have only one experiment proving that ?

yours amrit

Space and time rotate into each other. It is called the Lorentz transformation. This is old stuff.

I just prefer to stick with the working physics and not get tied up in knots over whether time exists or not. Physics does not tell us about the existential status of geometric or model dependent quantities.

Cheers LC

Hi Amrit,

you wrote (oct 30 11:47): "Quantum gravity describes space as granular. ... . Physical time that is run of clocks ("tick" of clocks) is not a part of quantum space in which change occurs."

"Quantum space itself is timeless. Fourth dimension of quanta of space QS is spatial too. Space-time is mathematical model merely were fourth coordinate X4 is a product of imaginary number i, light speed and number t that represents "tick" of clock: X4 = i x c t. "

You have three different reasons (correct me if I am wrong):

1. Quantum space itself is timeless.

2. time is fourth spatial dimension X4 = i x c t.

3. for duration of material change an observer is needed that measures it.

I like to address these points.

1. I think this is due to that the description of quantum mechanics is incomplete.

2. you call ict the fourth spatial coordinate X4, but we also can write time as tc2 and length as lxc. Now length and time are not spatial anymore. It is an arbitrary matter of choice how to represent time and length. (I myself prefer to give only vector quantities the imaginary unit i, Therefore time as -tc2 and the spatial coordinates become ilxc, jlyc, klzc) So spacetime itself is also not spatial. But again this is arbitrary.

We have spacetime continuum, and you believe that time is not physical. but we also have momentum-energy continuum. In the same line of reasoning I can say that energy is not physical.

plancks constant is Energy * time/phase. planck constant is also momentum * length/phase. why not query wether length or momentum exist?

3. Not only duration of material change but also distance in the configuration of the material change.

I agree with Lawrence : "It might sound "hip" to say that time does not exist but frankly physics is not in the business of saying what model or geometric entity exists or not."

It the article: "Einstein famously taught us that time is relative, and there are no absolute clocks, quantum mechanics is built on the notion that time is absolute. So before going any further, the physicists had to get a handle on what makes time tick."

For me it is obvious that quantum mechanics is incomplete, the last sentence in the quote from the article had to be: "So before going any further, the physicists had to get to know what was wrong with the description of quantum mechanics.

Grtz, Peter

The boost from a frame defined to be at rest by an observer, and a frame moving with velocity v along the x direction obeys the boosts

t' = γ(t - vx/c^2), x' = γ(x - vt), γ = 1/sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2)

The (t, x) and (t', x') coordinates are rotated into each other by hyperbolic rotations. This is basic stuff. I would recommend reading a basic text on special relativity to see how these transformation equations are derived.

Lawrence B. Crowell

Peter and Lawrence

t' = γ(t - vx/c^2), x' = γ(x - vt), γ = 1/sqrt(1 - (v/c)^2)

In this formula t means "thick of clock". Thick of clock cannot be a dimension.

A dimension is X4= tc2, so a product of number t that represents thick of clock and light speed.

Physical time is thick of clock, mathematical time is number "t" that represents "thick" of clock. So fouth coordinate is spatial too. This was already Godel idea.

Lawrence

This is basic stuff. I would recommend reading a basic text on special relativity to see how these transformation equations are derived.

Yes, idea of physical time being run of clocks is in accordance with thios basic stuff. t and t' are numbers representing "thicking" of clocks in different inertial systems

Peter

2. time is fourth spatial dimension X4 = i x c t.

Time is not fourth spatial dimension. Product of time and light speed is fourth spatial dimension.

3. Not only duration of material change but also distance in the configuration of the material change.

Yes, right.

yours amrit

I just follow my nose on this stuff. Time is measured by counting accumulated intervals on a clock. Space is measured by units on a ruler. The theoretical description of what is measured is a four dimensional metric space with hyperbolic transformations. That is all I am concerned about. I don't worry about the ontological status of these things.

Cheers LC

amrit,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

"Temperature is sometimes used as an example of an emergent macroscopic behaviour. In classical dynamics, a snapshot of the instantaneous momenta of a large number of particles at equilibrium is sufficient to find the average kinetic energy per degree of freedom which is proportional to the temperature. For a small number of particles the instantaneous momenta at a given time are not statistically sufficient to determine the temperature of the system. However, using the ergodic hypothesis, the temperature can still be obtained to arbitrary precision by further averaging the momenta over a long enough time.

Convection in a fluid or gas is another example of emergent macroscopic behaviour that makes sense only when considering differentials of temperature. Convection cells, particularly Bénard cells, are an example of a self-organizing system (more specifically, a dissipative system) whose structure is determined both by the constraints of the system and by random perturbations: the possible realizations of the shape and size of the cells depends on the temperature gradient as well as the nature of the fluid and shape of the container, but which configurations are actually realized is due to random perturbations (thus these systems exhibit a form of symmetry breaking).

In some theories of particle physics, even such basic structures as mass, space, and time are viewed as emergent phenomena, arising from more fundamental concepts such as the Higgs boson or strings. In some interpretations of quantum mechanics, the perception of a deterministic reality, in which all objects have a definite position, momentum, and so forth, is actually an emergent phenomenon, with the true state of matter being described instead by a wavefunction which need not have a single position or momentum. Most of the laws of physics themselves as we experience them today appear to have emerged during the course of time making emergence the most fundamental principle in the universe and raising the question of what might be the most fundamental law of physics from which all others emerged. Chemistry can in turn be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of physics. Biology (including biological evolution) can be viewed as an emergent property of the laws of chemistry. Finally, psychology could at least theoretically be understood as an emergent property of neurobiological laws."

Time is an emergent phenomena, in which the changing configuration of the state creates events which go from being future potential to past circumstance.