1) interference patterns between observers were never observed in connection to gravity - such "argument" is irrelevant here

2) a model, which allows reversible and chaotic time is just feature of such theory, which demonstrates connection to quantum mechanics, where such time is common

3) near event horizon the gravity becomes both nonconservative (dispersive) force (compare the multiple event horizons in Kerr's metric), both pretty reversible, because it's ballanced by pressure of radiation there

AMRIT: in AWT Aether is completelly random stuff (a sort of clouds or Perlin noise) and it has tendency to virtually anything - it's causual boundary of our knowledge. There is no entropic/negentropic flow preffered at global scale. Insintric observer of it would always see one half of Universe expanding by pressure of radiation, the second one (above CMB scale) would collapse by gravity instead. In AWT GW exists, but in higher dimension because they're superluminal, so they manifest like CMB noise in our 3D space-time. And so on...

    I don't think it mentioned in the article, that if gravity is entropic, it would fit that both only work in one direction. (Gravity is always attractive, entropy is always increasing.) Without understanding any of the finer points, it seems that this theory has the advantage of being elegant.

      Zephir wrote: "1) interference patterns between observers were never observed in connection to gravity - such 'argument' is irrelevant here"

      In fact, it's not only relevant, it's key. Asymmetry between gravitating bodies is what led Einstein to his failed "Relativistic theory of the asymmetric field." Lubos's application of the equivalence principle necessarily assumes that field properties of massless particles are constant; i.e., that there is nothing physical going on between gravity and light.

      "2) a model, which allows reversible and chaotic time is just feature of such theory, which demonstrates connection to quantum mechanics, where such time is common"

      There is no time parameter in non-relativistic quantum mechanics. In classical physics, time is a simple parameter of reversible trajectory.

      Tom

      /* Asymmetry between gravitating bodies is what led Einstein to his failed "Relativistic theory of the asymmetric field." Lubos's application of the equivalence principle necessarily assumes that field properties of massless particles are constant; i.e., that there is nothing physical going on between gravity and light...*/

      Sorry, but my syntactic parser still didn't catch any causual reference of interference patterns to entropic model of gravity. You just added another phrases like the "equivalence principle", "constant properties of massless particles", "asymmetry between gravitating bodies".

      So far I'm forced to consider every sentence of yours as an tautology, separated from other sentences. I still don't see any causual relation in the line "interference patterns" -- "asymmetric field" -- "equivalence principle" -- "entropic model of gravity". Could you argument more coherently for me, i.e. at least to use pair of these concept in one sentence by using of implication clause (IF-THEN) - if nothing else.

      You know, it's easy to say, someone is too stupid to understand some logics, so we should define some intersubjectivelly acceptable criterions of existence of such logics. If you prove, such logics exist in your sentences, then it's just me, who didn't understand it - but not before.

      You're perfectly right - this is because I've said, I can see paradox in the fact, entropy increases from the beginning of Universe due the expansion of Universe, which contradicts the gravity, which is attractive force, so it leads into collapse. You simply cannot have entropic process, which leads to spontaneous condensation of matter - such process would be always negentropic, instead.

      Does it mean, entropic interpretation of gravity is wrong from AWT perspective? Not quite, if we consider vacuum as an interior of dense collapsar, which is condensing by its own gravity. From this moment the entropic expansion of Universe changes into negentropic process, which could be described by gravity.

      But such negentropic condensation must be always followed by evaporation of matter into radiation - which is the true entropic process here. The space-time couldn't expand, if the collapsar forming our Universe wouldn't collapse, which is impossible, if it wouldn't a white hole, evaporating its matter to outside.

      If we consider this entropic process, then the gravity becomes reversible, because the gravity near collapsar becomes ballanced by pressure of radiation. In accordance with this we can consider such collapsar as an undulating blob or giant quantum wave packet, which is in dynamic equillibrium of negentropic gravity and pressure of entropic radiation.

      On the black hole model of Universe the holographic principle is based, but we can see, Verlinde's model leads logically to collapsar model or white model instead, thus removing the problem with reversibility of gravity. After all, one of features of quantum gravity is just to make gravity as reversible, as most of common quantum phenomena.

      Remember that statistical mechanics is based on time reversible mechanics, such as Boltzmann statistical thermodynamics is based on Newtonian mechanics. Newtonian mechanics is time reversal since F = ma for a = d^2r/dt^2 remains the same for t  -t. Statistical mechanics is based on adiabatic variations, which in a quantum mechanical setting means that energy levels and states are not destroyed. For quantum field theory and further with stringy black holes there are regularization procedure put in place so that an accounting of these states is possible. The entropy of a black hole is an adiabatic invariant and so the quantum states which compose the entropy S = -k*Σ_{mn}ρ_{mn}log(ρ_{mn}) are preserved. So an accounting of the degrees of freedom for a system is correctly performed. So on a fine grained level there is no loss of information. On that level Lubos is right, but there is still entropy associated with gravity or the area of black holes. Lubos is citing situations where we have a fine grained accounting of states invariant under adiabatic variations.

      Where things get sticky is with the large scale and black holes. An exterior observer can't readily observe the quantum states which compose a black hole, and certainly can't enter the BH interior and bring back a report. So in effect there is a coarse graining which occurs here. Now suppose you have a spherically symmetric distribution of matter that has a black spherical "cloak" around it. This cloak is a sort of Gaussian surface we imagine that has been painted black. Birkhoff's theorem tells us the gravity field of this distribution is that of a Schwarzschild black hole, and we conclude that the entropy of states inside this black Gaussian surface is given by the Bekenstein entropy S = k*A/4L_p and A = 4π(GM/c^2)^2. Now if we peel off the black surface and look inside this has no bearing on the physics of gravity, even if we can make now an accounting of matter-states in the spherical distribution --- say it is some elliptical galaxy. This means from the perspective of gravity the entropy is the same --- which is the nature of the entropy force of gravity. Gravity is "blind" or coarse grained with respect to the particular distributions of matter-fields, which can be a star or the strings tied to the stretched horizon of a black hole.

      So the area theorem of black holes dS/dt ~ dA/dt >= 0 in classical gravity or general relativity still tells us that on this coarse grained setting there is a thermodynamics to gravity. So in a curious way we can have our cake and eat it too. We have a field theory which is causal and preserves information, but which on a large scale, coarse graining or equivalently a classical treatment of black holes obeys the laws of thermodynamics and dS/dt >= 0.

      Cheers LC

      I'd compare Verlinde's model to epicycle model, which is incomprehensible, but formally (at numeric level) works well, although it's describing dual model (heliocentric model) in fact. So if we ignore the fact, gravity has an opposite sign regarding to entropy, we can consider Verlinde's model as it is.

      But the understanding of celestial mechanics is on the dual side - in the dense aether model of vacuum itself. If we consider Universe as a interior of black hole, we are forced to consider vacuum as a very dense gas, filled by foamy density fluctuations of hyperbolic geometry simmilar to foam (you can mix watter and sugar solution to imagine it). These fluctuations manifests itself like CMB noise in vacuum. The light would spread through such foam in two dual ways, thus creating an illusion of expanding space-time above CMB wavelength scale, whereas space-time bellow CMB wavelength scale would collapse instead.

      In accordance with this geometry, the noise of CMB fluctuations is gradually evaporating all objects smaller then the CMB wavelength, whereas all larger objects are condensing under omnidirectional pressure of this "ultramundane flux" in accordance to ancient Le-Sage theory. This is why every action of gravity force is followed by glowing, i.e. by radiation.

      And this is what the entropic model of gravity is really about at intuitive, physical level.

      Zephir, The heat capacity of spacetime is negative. For this reason entropy increases with lower temperature and it accompanies collapse.

      Equilibrium is not possible either. A black hole sitting in a background with a certain temperature and which emits Hawking radiation at the same temperature is not at eqilibirum. This is contrary to our standard expectations. The reason is that if the black hole emits a photon it get smaller and the entropy S = A/4L_p decreases. However, the temperature also increases, meaning the black hole can emit more photons. So the black hole emits more photons, gets hotter and ... . Conversely if the black hole absorbs a photon from the environment it gets colder, higher entropy and has a higher probability of absorbing more photons.

      Cheers LC

      I still don't see any connections of gravity to some interference. I'm particularly interested about it in connection with red shift quantization.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift_quantization

      http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.4885v3.pdf

      we need fun ....and that is going to begin.....Mr London , I need helps....Mr Landau thanks to be near me also and Mr Feynman of course, they need a curse of thermodynamics aznd sphericality sciences ahahah

      How can we do for explaining to them with my bad english, bad english but me it's true sciences.

      Let's begin with phonons and rotons.....and my spherons of course .Oh my God they need curses of thermo.

      ROTATING SPHERES MY FRIENDS AND THERMODYNAMICS KINETICS

      THE ROTATIONS OF THE SPHERES EXPLAIN ALL ........THE SOUND AND THE ROTATIONS YOU WANT A CURSE OR WHAT .

      Zephir, I don't know how to explain it better than Lubos Motl (26 April 9:04 GMT) already did. I'll make an attempt.

      The equivalence principle (of inertial mass and gravitational mass) in general relativity deals with ponderable quantities of mass in relation -- the symmetry of the mutual attraction between them explains the physics of gravity in a field theory without imposing other parameters, because it is the spacetime field that is physically real.

      If one tries to introduce discrete energy exchange (i.e., through massless speed of light particles, bosons) as a physically real parameter, one comes up against the fact that there is no elapsed time between these massless particles, therefore no change in the field; measure in any direction at any observer velocity, and the speed will be the same. All that we know about gravity so far is classical physics alone.

      Now you know the two-slit experiment, right? This is the heart of quantum mechanics. The two slit experiment informs us that bosons communicate holistically; i.e., these massless particles make coherent wave patterns from discrete units in statistically predictable ways.

      Lubos is saying that Verlinde cannot get a workable field theory that includes mass, because if one makes information a physical parameter, it is wavelike, while the deterministic interactions of classical gravity are particle-like. So we are stuck with the same problems of unification that we always had, plus--Lubos claims--an additional problem of incorporating time into the theory. Time in classical physics is a simple parameter of reversible trajectory; in non-relativistic quantum physics, time has no meaning. So when we start talking about information entropy (whose mathematical model is identical to energy entropy) as physically real, we lose time conservation--a fundamental symmetry principle.

      Gravity is not physically real in classical physics. If one wants a field theory in which gravity is identical to physical information and information is dissipative, then gravity has to be physically real. There goes the spacetime field, though, because of the nonreversibility of the time parameter.

      I know that Lubos Motl's objections are sound, and must be successfully countered. However, I favor Erik Verlinde's and Ted Jacobson's approach -- why? Because I see the answers in a model that exploits what Hawking & Hartle found 30 years ago -- that imaginary time preserves both time reversibility and time asymmetry in a field theory.

      If you're interested, my paper "On breaking the time barrier," is here

      Tom

      The concern over mass is something which is important, for it is the IR part of the theory and has a correspondence with the UV scale. To illustrate something about this I outline the physics in some detail here

      A sphere of area A will contains N = A/L_p^2 units of information. The equipartition theorem is E = (1/2)NkT, where E = mc^2, and T the Hawking Unruh temperature,

      [math]

      T~=~{1\over{2\pi}}{{\hbar g}\over{kc}}

      [/math]

      The work-energy theorem of mechanics E = ∫F*dr gives Newtonian gravity

      [math]

      g~=~{{Gm}\over{r^2}},

      [/math]

      and Newton's second law F = mg.

      A surface area at the Bekenstein limit due to quantum black holes is a summation over all eigen-numbers of Planck units of area

      [math]

      A~=~c\sum_{i=1}^Nn_iL_p^2~=~c\sum_n A_nL_p^2,

      [/math]

      where n = n_1 n_2 ... n_N contributes energy E_n = cnħg/4πc. An accelerated surface is degenerate according to a partition function

      [math]

      Z(\beta)~=~\sum_{n=1}^\infty g(E_n)e^{-\beta E_n}.

      [/math]

      The average energy is

      [math]

      \langle E(\beta)\rangle~=~-{\partial\over{\partial\beta}}ln~Z(\beta),

      [/math]

      and the entropy

      [math]

      S(\beta)~=~k\Big(ln~Z(\beta)~-~\beta{\partial\over{\partial\beta}}ln~Z(\beta)\Big),

      [/math]

      from which the characteristic temperature for a phase transition of an accelerate surface is

      [math]

      T_c~=~{c\over{4\pi ln~2}}{{\hbar g}\over{kc}},

      [/math]

      where c = 2 ln2. The energy for N --> ∞ is ( |E| ) = 0 [here ( and ) used for bra-ket notation] for T \lt T_c. A critical point occurs as T --> T_c, with production of quantum black holes from the vacuum. For large N the result approximates E = NkT.

      This theory then lends itself to phase transitions. I recently submitted a paper on this, but I can outline what happens from here. The stretched horizon is a place where strings which compose a black hole are "frozen" and have an effective mass. The string's mass is just its energy which is confined on the stretched horizon. The elementary analysis with the critical temperature indicates a possible phase transition, indeed a quantum critical point or phase transition. The analysis is done in a fairly straight forwards way with extremal black hole and the analysis of the spacetime near the stretched horizon. The physics for fields or strings that enter the horizon or quantum tunnel out is quantum physics with a V ~ |x| potential. This has Airy function solutions which satisfy Zamolodcikov's c = 1/2 CFT condition on massive fields. The masses correspond to the (8,1) irrep of the E_8 group.

      Cheers LC

        Entropy means that energy of the system tends to be distributed in a homogeneous way. In the universe energy of matter and energy of space tends to be distributed in a homogeneous was.

        Presence of big mass creates distortion of quantum space and makes space less dens. Smaller mass have a tendency of "gravitational motion" into direction of lower density of space.

        yours amrit

        When you write like that dear Lawrence, I love ....hip hip houraaa

        I love your Zustandsumme...the partition function....interesting...Boltzman has had a good idea when he introduced that indeed .

        But if the ideal gas propertiers are inserted with their limits, that will change a little.

        Because the sum of the denominator implies effects on statisticam mechanics simply.And of course the levels of energies are correlated.

        The entropy of these systems considered with like ideal gas.Thus dS=dQ/T...etc etc etc ...S=INT C dT/T+n R ln V+S0......your N is it true ??? Furthermore still the infinity is confusing.....the functions of T and P and V needs the correct referential.

        In these cases, the existence of micro black hole seems impossible.

        Sincerely

        Steve

        That's interesting, Lawrence. Thanks. As I mentioned elsewhere, I think we are going to the same place from opposite directions.

        I think your stretched horizon where string field energies originate is the same as my four dimension horizon that I find identical to the 10 dimension limit (which means the energy on the 9 dimensional shell of S^10).

        It is of interest to me that your string mass is confined on the stretched horizon, because I think the low energy of our familiar four dimensions in terms of total cosmic inertial (baryonic) mass, which I calculate from first principles to a precise 4.59% of observed cosmic composition (consistent with WMAP data) is explained by this hyperspatial fraction of length 1. Your string field masses that originate in the quantum vaccum on the event horizon -- and this tiny fraction of 10-dimension length 1 -- explains the low energy content in that as our world becomes more ordered, disorder increases in dimensions > 4 as a result of information entropy, even as entropy also increases in our own world. IOW, only our unique dimensionality can sustain open systems ("life") within a universe in which entropy can only increase.

        Exta dimensions need not be compactified in this model -- we need only a sphere packing with an order normalized on 4 dimensions in which information monotonically decreases as the counting order (entropy) increases. This is consistent, I think, with Zamolodchikov's C-function extended to n dimension space > 4, if I understand correctly.

        I think the problem you're going to run into is the treatment of spacetime near the horizon. I don't think you can avoid singularities, with infinite mass density. (I try to get around this by proposing a continuum of mass identical to quantum unitarity, which implies negative mass and imaginary time.)

        Tom