• [deleted]

THE QUANTUM BOX EXPERIMENT:

In 2007, I had the good fortune of attending the "Quantum Paradox" class that was taught by Drs. Aharonov or Tollaksen at George Mason University. The "Quantum Box Experiment" was related at a class I attended. Although the experiment provides one "proof" that TSQM is "real", the findings have not, to the best of my knowledge, been published. Accordingly, the following reflect my notes, recollection and handout from the class lecture.

Before I go on, you may wish to review an early description of the experiment. (See: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0310091v1)

Now, please visualize a set of six boxes arranged in a three by three matrix with the columns labeled from left to right: Box A, B, and C; and rows labeled from bottom to top: time t, t1 and t2. A particle entering the system at the bottom (e.g. at time t) is understood to have a one-third probability of being in Box A, B, or C at all levels, t, t1 and t2. It was my understanding that these probabilities were confirmed through ideal, or von Neumann, measurements taken at each level. However, these confirming measurements were not part of the experiment that I am about to describe.

In the experiment, a very large ensemble of particles was introduced into the experiment and, although ideal measurements were taken at time t2 for Boxes A, B, and C, only the experimental data for those particles found Box A (the post-selection sub-ensemble) were retained for further consideration. The theory behind the experiment is, to my understanding, that the ideal measurement of the sub-ensemble of particles found in Box A at t2 constitutes a boundary condition, which through the propagation of a time-reversed wave, constrains the potential locations and states of the particle to that subset of positions and states that remain possible given both the t (starting) boundary condition and t2 (ending) boundary condition. Mathematically, the theory generates for the selected sub-ensemble a probability of "1" that the particle at time t+1 will be found in Box A and also generates a probability of "1" that the particle at time t1 will be found Box B. This means that if an ideal measurements had been conducted at time t1 and Box A or Box B were, metaphorically speaking, opened, the particle would always be found inside the selected Box with absolute certainty. While this verification cannot be actually performed using ideal measurements, the prediction can be experimentally confirmed using weak measurements where the selected sub-ensemble includes a large number of particles. (See: Non-statistical Weak Measurements http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0607208; Weak measurements, weak values, and entanglement http://link.aip.org/link/?PSISDG/6573/65730Z/1; Pre-and post-selection, weak values and contextuality http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18922792; and Robust Weak Measurements on Finite Samples http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703038.) The resulting interference pattern that Dr. Tollaksen presented arose from these weak measurements and was proffered as "proof" that TSQM is not just a mathematical model (with explanatory value) but also reflects an underlying reality (that I hope to further explore in future communications).

Noting that the probability of finding the particle in Box A and Box B at t+1 were both "1", you may be wondering about Box C. Here, the mathematics predicts something that seemed astounding (which is probably why the reported findings do not appear to have been published.) Where the subject particles are electrons, TSQM predicts a particle with all of the attributes of a positron - but with a fundamental difference. The particle predicted for Box C must have a negative mass. (Although not discussed by Drs. Aharonov or Tollaksen, it appears that this finding would be necessary under a reasonable extension of the conservation of lepton law.) In any event, this outcome was mathematically demonstrated by Dr. Tollaksen. It was also implicitly confirmed in the Physics Applications class I subsequently attended at George Mason University; where it was shown that the time-reversed evolution of a matter wave was impossible for any particle with a positive mass. Additionally, Dr. Tollaksen indicated that experimental verifications of these negative mass particles had been obtained.

    • [deleted]

    Jon,

    I understand CDT as a calculational device, not a physical principle.

    I agree that time's arrow oriented identically on a scale invariant set of self similar simplices has the remarkable ability to construct 4 dimensional spacetime. I would relate this result more closely to a coomputer version of the Abel-Ruffini theorem, however, than to physical spacetime. It's nice geometry, and I expect well worth pursuing into more exotic mathematics in the world of computer science.

    For my own part, I find that a physical definition of "time" (n-dimensional infinitely orientable metric on random self-avoiding walk) structures space. The oriented simplex, IOW, is already a spacetime structure.

    Tom

    • [deleted]

    Jon,

    I apologize for not having read this all the way through previously. I thought it was a recap of the "weak measurement" results with which I am familiar.

    The negative mass result matches a prediction in my "time barrier" paper. That is, I find that the properties of negative mass are nonlocal, such that the wave equation for quantum mechanical unitary is identical to the equation for negative mass normalized on a continuum of Mass |M| ("time barrier" 3.1--3.2). Positive and negative forms of mass cannot occupy the same local space, which seems to extend the Pauli Exclusion Principle to spacetime physics and thus bring us closer to a classical interpretation of quantum mechanics.

    I would be most interested in any other information your have on this experimental result. Thanks!

    Tom

    a month later
    • [deleted]

    Great ideas, but does raise the spectre that some outcomes might be weird loops in time without an obvious causality. Somehow they make themselves...

    2 months later
    • [deleted]

    QUANTUM TELEPHONE.

    I got a call in the early 80's from a pastor I would meet in the future.

    He told me it was a call from the future.

    He told me some things that I didn't know about the future.......

    By making the call the future was joined with the past and the past the telpehone call became the cause of the future.The actual call was likely to have been a prank.

    But the reasoning is sound I then became the cause of the call in the future and I wrote a book called Einstein proved wrong by simple maths and wrote a script called Dailtone about a lawyer who calls dead people from the future.

    I would not have done these things except for the call from the future.......

    Joe..

    Do you think this describes how the future can affect the past.

    2 months later
    • [deleted]

    This is such a convoluted premise that it boggles my mind. Does Paul Davies understand that anything that represents an "event" is always done in the present moment, and any observation of it is the present moment view of the past. How do you get around doing something that is not in the present moment? How do you get around observing something that is not a view from the present moment? These types of experiments would have more credibility in my mind if science reflected any understanding of "time".

    The concept of past and future do not exist in the objective universe. The past and future are relational concepts to the present time and location of the observer. In the objective universe, all events happen at once in the present moment, and all observation is always looking into the past.

    I look forward with interest to the results and conclusions of this experiment.

    If the light in the past IS NOT affected by the actions of the present moment then I will look forward to the day I look in the mirror and don't see myself.

    Maybe I should get an FQXi grant to verify that my reflection is indeed there.

    • [deleted]

    Dear Peter,

    I do agree with the contents of your last post(above). Really, everything just happens in the "present". But, there a curious question about: What 'slice of time' corresponds to the "present"? One second? Millionth of a second?

    Cheers,

    Wilton

    3 months later
    • [deleted]

    Julie,

    In my book The Meaning of Time: A Theory of Nothing I propose the idea of retrocausation in a different manner. The idea has its genesis in the Dirac equation. This equation allows for positive energy states (waves) in either a spin up or spin down orientation moving forward in time from the past and negative energy states (waves) in a spin up or spin down orientation that can be interpreted as moving backward in time from the future.

    If the electron is considered a composite particle consisting of both positive and negative energy states and that there is a interference between these states as the phenomenon of Zitterbewegung seems to imply, then the electron's internal clock can be considered the ad infinitum interaction of these positive and negative energy states. In this model, the singular positive energy state may have a spin up or spin down orientation and is in a sense a probability wave constituting an infinity of potential states that may be actualized. Each possibility has the same amplitude for actualization differing only in phase. There are six determined negative energy states (one pair for each dimension of the electron's reality) with each pair consisting of a spin up state and a spin down state.

    As the positive energy state moving forward in time interacts with each pair of negative energy states moving backward in time, the negative energy state singles out a unique phase of the positive energy state and one dimension of the electron's reality is actualized. The resultant state of the electron is not a matter of objective chance but rather a result of its interaction with the negative energy state emanating from the future. The evolution of the positive energy wave function is, in effect, a deterministic process of retro-causation. The cause of the positive energy wave function's collapse is the future, and the result of the interaction is the reality we experience in the present moment.

    Gene T. Yerger

    8 days later

    Topic 641 2011-06-16

    You people "mind boggle" on the wrong things!

    There is no present. That, is, mind boggling for you.

    Light takes some time to travel from your computer screen to your eyes, and that light speed is a limit in this universe. So, this inescapable time between your computer screen and your eyes means they are not at the same moment. What is the "present" if not you thinking that you and your computer are at the same moment? A "present" would require a volume within which everything is at the same moment, with no speed limit between any part within it. This would allow instantaneous communication... which is not possible!

    We make/create a "perceptual present" by integrating, like a photographic film, various pieces of information based on their coincidence in our eyes, and not on their origin. This way, we may see in the same glance the Sun that is 8 minutes away, the moon that is a second away and your hand some micro - micro second away. A " present" does not make any more sense than asking about the weather "now" on the planet Mars. Earth and Mars do not share a "now".

    Above, I used an "operational" definition to test the so called "present". If things are part of a "present", they are at the same moment and they should operate or communicate with each other in an instantaneous way. Our present day say physics says it can't be.

    So, anyone talking in a fundamental way of a "present" is way out there in the far field.

    p.s. Please!!! Anyone! Say that you understand that! This is basic space-time.

    Marcel,

      • [deleted]

      Wilton,

      A universe may start from nothing, or just a tiny `"spark".

      Our universe abides by the rule of non-contradiction.

      nothing and something cannot exist at the time time = a contradiction.

      The important part of that statement is = "at the same time".

      If something could exist always separated from nothingness by "time" , the contradiction would be avoided.

      Conclusion: a universe that abides by the rule of non-contradiction may start from nothingness and it will allow only "time" as substance in it, because only

      time, by its very nature, avoids the contradiction between existence and nothingness.

      Marcel,

      Wilton, (re-post / re-edited)

      A universe may start from nothing, or just with a tiny `"spark".

      Our universe abides by the rule of non-contradiction.

      Nothing and something cannot exist at the same time = a contradiction.

      The important part of that statement is = "at the same time".

      If something could exist always separated from nothingness by "time" , the contradiction would be avoided.

      Conclusion: a universe that abides by the rule of non-contradiction may start from nothingness (!)and it will allow only "time" as substance in it, because only time, by its very nature, avoids the contradiction between existence and nothingness.

      Marcel,

      6 days later
      • [deleted]

      Marcel,

      I understand you.

      It is the concept of the relativity of simultaneity and it is in deed the way the universe is temporally organized. Each observer has his or her own notion of the present moment, and in this respect Einstein's theory has blurred the lines between past, present and future.

      But even to the great Einstein, this realization was not necessarily welcome. He thought that the idea of the present moment had a special meaning for man that was distinct from the ideas of past and future. However, he was resigned to the realization that this difference could not be captured within our (current) scientific theories.

      It is my contention, however, that Einstein's theory did not lead to a better way of understanding time but only to a better understanding of how to treat time in our equations. The question of what we really mean by "time" is still a wide open question.

      Einstein's theory seems to imply that - at rest - we are all moving through time at the speed of light - as our motion through space increases our motion through time decreases and you have the phenomenon of time dilation. At all times, however, the total of our motion through time and our motion through space must equal the speed of light. This notion of motion through time is, in my opinion, merely a mathematical abstraction that allows us to properly treat time in our equations in a relativistic way.

      In my book The Meaning of Time - A Theory of Nothing, however, I propose that motion through time is a real phenomenon. I propose that particles such as electrons and protons are at all times moving through time at the speed of light. There is a small amount of the particle's energy that is associated with this motion through time and that energy is the particle's rest mass. In other words, a particle's resistance to acceleration in space (inertia) is the particle's constant motion through time. As a particle is accelerated, more energy is required to maintain its motion through time at the speed of light. The particle also has a rotational energy that drives its internal periodic mechanism - the particle's internal clock. As the particle accelerates, part of this energy is diverted to motion through time and as a consequence the particle's internal clock slows (time dilation) and its mass increases.

      I also propose the idea of temporal gauge invariance. From each person's perspective, the universe is in the past (by Einstein's definition) and - I propose- is a probability density that represents an infinity of ways that the universe may be configured - each possibility with the same amplitude for actualization (differing only in phase). Temporal gauge invariance simply implies that each particle's clock can run at its own rate while the global temporal template remains unchanged. The internal clock consists of six discrete interactions - two for each dimension of our three dimensional reality - and is repeated ad infinitum. This internal periodic mechanism collapses the individual particle's wave function in the present moment and the universe we experience is actualized. We live in a singular universe with the ability to configure itself in an infinity of ways based on these localized temporal interactions.

      That is the essence of time in my theory.

      Gene T. Yerger

      5 months later
      • [deleted]

      Marcel,

      You are right, there is no 'present' at all. It's just a word and a human useful perception.

      As long as we know things are moving continuously (energized) and that movement makes 'time pace'. If present happens, so movement is not continuous, but discrete.

      Is it?

      a year later
      • [deleted]

      I'd like to hear an explanation of how the future events that alter the present do so in the irreversible patterns of all sequential change. Time reversal in sequence would seem to be the ultimate paradox.

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