My essay deals with 'local realism' and Brian Whitworth has written a wonderful essay based on taking the failure of local realism to its (perhaps) logical conclusion. The following summarizes points that I've made on Brian's thread.

He responded by saying: "If the properties of a photon can change en route, without physical intervention... isn't the objective reality hypothesis conceded?"

But I do not propose "without physical intervention", in which case there is no violation of Bell's inequality. It's only violated when photons are treated differently by polarizers or beam splitters, and this *is* physical intervention. If the choice is to give up local realism or to believe that a beam splitter has a physical effect on a photon, the choice is easy.

Since the C-field described in my essay accompanies every 'object' with momentum (fig on page 6), there is definitely a 'mass-sensitive' field involved passing through the polarizing beam splitter. Recent experiments (discussed in other comments) lend credibility to the gravito-magentic (C) field, whereas, after 80 years, we still don't know what a 'quantum field' is. He is "letting the quantum fields be real, not just mathematical fictions" I suggest that the C-field is at least as reasonable as a quantum field.

Brian says "the VR conjecture moves the word "physical" from the realism to the locality definitions." I will spend some time trying to absorb this.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

A brief summary:

Entanglement experiments imply that local realism is false because they violate Bell's inequality based on D'Espagnat's 3 assumptions: local realism, Einstein locality, and logical induction, as Brian points out. But if properties change en route (due to interaction with the apparatus) then violation of Bell's inequality does not imply that properties don't exist until measured.

And if properties do exist, then all relevant properties are expected to conserve momentum and energy. (Brian says: "ensure a constant spin zero" or "Keep one black if the other is white.") But then there is no necessary 'non-localism' since the existence of conserved properties means that if one is known, then the other is known. There's no need for 'spooky' communications between Bob and Alice's locations.

Why is this not obvious? Because Copenhagen 'superposition of states' inherently does away with realism in favor of mysticism, claiming quantum objects are 'ghostly' until measured. More than anything, this probably derives from two-slit experiments, but the same C-field 'pilot wave' that I claim interacts with beam splitters would also interact with two slit apparatus, potentially explaining interference observed by experiment.

Brian's point 8: "Superposition. Objective entities cannot spin in two directions at once as quantum entities do...". The physical fact is that a magnetic field can only measure along one axis at once, and this has been distorted by probabilistic representation into spinning in two directions at once.

There seems to be inconsistency here. On the one hand, "properties cannot change en route without physical intervention" while on the other hand, "properties are in a 'state of superposition' described only statistically by a probability wave function. If only probability applies, why can't things change? One assumes that they are changing until the superposed wave function is measured, 'collapsing' the wave function (ie, the in-transit object) into a real, albeit unpredictable state.

The necessity for probability implies an essential randomness, to which I'll return later, but if things can't change, then they are predictable, and if they are only statistically predictable, who's to say they can't change? (This is only a logical point as I contend they do change upon contact with the apparatus.)

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin

I'll read Brian's essay, but I agree with you entirely. When you see my papers you'll find some simple slit experiments showing interference even when one direct path is blocked. This is consistent with the 'edge' of the blocking strip absorbing and re emitting the photon/wave signal, slightly scattered. This is entirely equivalent to both QED and atomic scattering - where we know photons are NOT conserved. (and look up Polarisation Mode Dispersal). It also happens to explain why surface charge is greater at sharper corners!

PHOTOELECTRONS At CERN they've called the photoelectrons for decades, but some bright young things started calling them 'virtual' electrons a few years ago. You need to look at LHC physics not the word. The first 2 links below may help. The others actually refer to similar things at the other end of the scale. ESA have also just reported the Earth & Venus bow shocks are largely planetary frame NOT solar wind frame shocks. I hope you can see the connection.

http://conf-ecloud02.web.cern.ch/conf-ecloud02/talks/harkay-ecloud02.pdf

http://conf-ecloud02.web.cern.ch/conf ecloud02/papers/allpdf/wang.pdf 3Dsim.

http://iopscience.iop.org/154357/580/2/L137/fulltext

http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0703101 http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1023164

Peter

  • [deleted]

Interesting essay, we know already but interesting.

You are a founder of several societies in silicon vally, wawwww I am impressed.hihihihi

You have invented a consScious robot it's that.Let's laugh it's good for health.Hope I don't offense you, after all wa have all the same age.13.7 hihihi

Can I speak with him.After all it's a robot with quantum spheres....H ...CNO....CH4NH3H2OHCN.......AMINO ACIDS....TIME ....ADN .....UNI CELLS ....P¨LURI CELLS...........SPONGES....MEDUSAS....HUMANS......UNIVERSAL SPHERE.Hope you see my little resume, if you want I can show you all my chlassments about mass and evolution and spherization.Never I have seen a conscious robot in my classments of animals, vegetals and minerals.Sorry but really nono the little robot of Ulysse 31 really doesn't exist.I search you know but really even in my prays , I don't see it.

But I doubt his age is about 14 or 15 billions years ....the consciousness is a result of evolution ....LIKE THE INTELLIGENCE.........impossible.

Steve founder of the Theory of Spherization without job and without companies at sillicon valley.hihihihi

A conscious robot and a quantum consciousness ahahah no but let's be serious please, it's that which is searched at nasa.

Well NASA if you want me I have concrete inventions and models, a sphere of composting for example or a biological computer and even quantum computer with spinning spheres. hihihi oh lalalal the van,itious belgian, oh alalalalal.

Well build a robot yes, consciousness never.I love the film terminator but please let's be serious, you live in California or What Dr Klingman.

Viva el spherization and DOBN4T FORGET Vanity of vanity all is vanity after all .sad reality ....you see God, father, they fear to use the word sphere now.

Well .........CONSCIOUS UNIVERSAL SPHERE....THAT IS THE REALITY.

Now I go take my meds and I will come soon dear thinkers, you search what in fact , some special fields....it's well that.congratulations.The fields are logics like our walls and our limits of evolution and knowledges.

But one thing very important is this one.You must respect the laws of light and its constant....thus of cours you search in the bad road peter about the limit of c.

Regards

Steve

Steve,

Your self-taught English far exceeds my self-taught French, but you need to read more closely. Nowhere do I claim to have designed a conscious robot. I define consciousness as awareness plus volition (free will) and no robot will ever have awareness or free will (although guided randomness may simulate free will). What my bio states is that I designed robotic experiments of the kind King describes in the most recent Scientific American magazine and as described in Science in 2009. (Automating Science, Science Vol 324 3 Apr 2009 ) and also described in my book "Automatic Theory of Physics" (Amazon).

I also answered these question listed in Appendix A of my essay:

Q1 How to reduce an indefinite number of measurements to finite number of features.

Q2 What is the criterion for "best" feature set?

Q3 How can we obtain the best feature set?

Q4 How will we describe the dynamical behavior of the object?

Q5 What is the best physical theory?

Steve ask yourself how you would design and program a robot to make measurements, say of visual data, and derive rules of behavior of the observed entities (ie, physics) after extracting features through clustering operations on the data. If you can do this (I did and others did in 2009) then you will have a "robot physicist" who made observations and derived a theory. It is 'automated' or 'automatic' theorization, but the robot is never aware and never has free will, so is never conscious.

As a side point, I left NASA decades ago and founded companies, not societies. Finally Steve, if you compare your recent messages to those of two years ago, you will find that your messages were much clearer then. Try to slow down and not take things too seriously.

Your friend,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Peter, I will look at the links you sent. On a side note, I don't want in any way to appear to be 'double teaming' Brian Whitworth. You dumped a dozen or so points on him. I'm trying to focus on the key point, local realism, as the rest of his essay depends on it.

    • [deleted]

    Respected Sir,

    We are highly embarrassed by your invitation to an amateur in the field like us to comment on your highly respected work. Yet, finding many similarities between our views and the fact that you are associated with an organization that is a pioneer in the field of research to understand most of the mysteries of the universe has emboldened us to respond. Kindly forgive our impertinence if our comments appear to be so.

    We agree that: "Analog and digital mathematical treatments can be shown to be equivalent, so the answer does not lie in math but in physics. At root is the nature of particles and fields. The simplest possible physical model, one field, will be analyzed and physical experiments proposed to show an analog reality with digital consequences. There are implications for the view of reality currently associated with entanglement and violation of Bell's inequality".

    It is ultimately one analog field that transforms itself to a locally digital format by a deterministic mechanism. This makes for two types of fields. The mechanism is nothing but simple inertia (provided we interpret it properly). But there is a difference between our understanding and description of fields. Since we describe the primordial field as deterministic, we describe everything in terms of cause and effect. We have already shown in our essay the nature of uncertainty to show that it is not contradictory to causality, but a logical outcome of our measurement system. Since the primordial field is deterministic, all quantum effects have macro equivalents. We accept entanglement in both systems, but the effects of both are different. As you know Sir, the effect of entanglement is known to fade off after some distance - may be a few kilometers.

    We broadly agree (in essence, but not on the process) that: "An appropriately isolated object system, measured by an appropriate number generator, produces a measurement space upon which clustering transformations can be performed--by either neural or silicon networks--to create a feature space that can be represented1 in either continuous or discrete formalisms".

    Also we agree that: "Thus analog or digital reality questions can't be answered mathematically--the answer must be found in a physical universe. The simplest possible universe would consist of one primordial field". However, we hold that physics is mathematical in specified ways only.

    You say: "Physics should never accept anything "outside time and space", such as: God, a mathematical universe, a multiverse, laws of physics, more than 4 dimensions. If physics does not grant God legitimacy, it should reject all other appeals to "the beyond". If only a primordial field exists initially, then any law of physics must derive from the field itself". We agree with you partially. While we accept that: "Physics should never accept anything "outside time and space", we do not accept the generally accepted concept of God. But if someone describes the single source of creation as God, we have no quarrels with such description. We accept: "a mathematical universe, a multiverse, laws of physics", because they are nothing but the mechanism through which the analog field becomes digitized. We do not accept the modern concept of extra large or compact 10 spatial dimensions. But we describe 10 unique projections of the three spatial dimensions. We have discussed it elaborately in our book.

    We note with interest: "Finally the LHC has surprised physicists / cosmologists that the early universe was a 'perfect fluid', not an 'explosion of gases' that is the basis of all current theories". This has been our theory all along.

    But we disagree with your comments that: "Our Master equation describes a perfect fluid, a G-C-field yielding the most complete explanation of our universe for all known particles and cosmological phenomena--that is compatible with SU(n), Yang-Mills, Calabi-Yau, 3D space and time, and local realism". This is because we do not accept anything that could not be derived from fundamental principles. Though the G-C-field is a gravito-magnetic field, our description of gravity is different from your description.

    For example, we have derived gravity from fundamental principles as a composite force (of seven) that works similarly on macro and macro objects, though the results are apparent differently. For the macro effect, we can derive it from the electromagnetic force. For the micro effect, we can derive the electromagnetic force from it. With this theory, we can explain the Pioneer Anomaly, the Voyager deflection beyond the orbit of Saturn and the Fly-by anomalies. We had predicted the failure of Chandrayan 1 on 23rd May, three months before it actually failed. For us gravity is a composite force that stabilizes. Only this way we can explain the fixed ratio of the gravitational mass mg and the inertial mass, mi.

    You have admitted that the 3 Dec 2010 issue of Physical Review Letters 105, 231103 ("...on Non-Newtonian Gravity") describes a 13 year study of LAGEOS satellite(s) that tracked the relativistic precession with one centimeter rms accuracy (the most accurate measurement for the pericenter advance of a satellite orbiting the Earth ever made.) The results differ from general relativity's predictions by up to 0.2% and the difference is attributed to the C-field, or gravito-magnetic field. In the force equation, the masses that are used are the gravitational masses, mg. The acceleration, derived from Newton's second law, is proportional to the inertial mass, mi, which describes a different property of a body: how it reacts to a force to acquire its acceleration. Now, it is found experimentally that all bodies have the same ratio mg/mi. This only proves what we have derived theoretically long ego.

    Lot of talk is going on regarding the Sterile neutrinos. This is a part of our theory, from which we have theoretically derived not only the value of pi (22/7) and the fine structure constant (7/960 at zero energy level, and 7/900 at 80 GeV level), but also the charge of protons (+10/11) and neutrons (-1/11) in electron units (-1). Atoms interact: hence cannot be charge neutral. The excess negative charge is not revealed as it flows inwards (towards the nucleus), but is revealed in nuclear explosions. In all these, we have used simple mathematics that can be easily verified.

    Once again thanks and regards,

    Yours sincerely,

    basudeba

    • [deleted]

    Hello,

    Beautiful answer.

    It's clearer for me now.

    You know I have a big problem with languages.

    In fact I study only words in English and spanish and italian(latin language)

    I study dutch also(second language of my country,germanic language)

    My aim is to speak chinese and indian soon also.And arab.It's difficult the chinese you know,more than 4000 signs.The japanese is easier for the number of signs.

    Thus of course you imagine why I mix .But I love studying a little of all.

    At this momment I restudy my maths and I search a serie for the number of spheres.The algebras sing with the geometry of sphere.

    It's difficult also for me to be more quiet due to my past and my parano.

    For my theory, I must be serious, it's not a fun for me but it's all my life.

    For your essay.....very interesting and relevant.Good luck.

    Your friend also

    Steve

    • [deleted]

    With humility and I am sure.

    you ask

    "Q5 What is the best physical theory?"

    Simply it's the Theory of spherization, quantum spheres ....build....cosmological spheres and its lifes and cosnciousness and they turn around the universal center, the biggest volume of sphere(different than the universal sphere and its membran limiting the physicality and the unknown.....and ALL THAT INSIDE A BEAUTIFUL SPHERE IN OPTIMIZATION AND IMPROVEMENT.

    It was only simple like that but to see this evidence, a lot of studyings in all centers of interest is essential.We see in the details the generality of our laws.

    Regards

    Steve

    • [deleted]

    Dear Edwin Eugene Klingman,

    I regret, but you makes confusion on this point. Actually, gravito-magnetic effects are well known within General Relativity, i.e. the C-field, that you claims to be real while General Relativity should be of limited application (in all honesty, I find a few arrogant this claim), is indeed a part of General Relativity, see for example the recent review published in Astrophys. Space Sci. 331:351-395, 2011. Difference of order 0.2% are NOT attributed to the C-field, or gravito-magnetic field, which is comprised in General Relativity, but to potential modifies of the gravitational action with respect to the Einstein-Hilbert action of Standard General Relativity.

    Best wishes.

    • [deleted]

    Again, you makes confusion. Your sentence that "gravito-magnetism has been essentially ignored for 150 years" is NOT correct. Actually, there is an ENORMOUS number of papers in the literature regarding gravito-magnetism, see the recent review published in Astrophys. Space Sci. 331:351-395, 2011 and references within. Attempts to explain discrepances from General Relativity which have been found in the Phys Rev Lett paper cited above arise from potential modifies of the gravitational action with respect to the Einstein-Hilbert action of Standard General Relativity. These modifies have nothing to do with gravito-magnetism which is indeed well known within Standard General Relativity.

    Best wishes

    Dear Basudeba,

    You are overly deferential, but I appreciate your comments. We seem to agree on many things, and even where you may think we disagree on math, I am merely contending that math arises in our universe, not as a Platonic "other".

    I am uncertain as to your interpretation that the Master equation and its consequences do not derive from fundamental principles. It derives from logic, which I consider to be the most fundamental of all principles, essentially demanding physical non-contradiction. Given only one entity in the universe, the primordial field, that entity can only evolve through interaction with itself. There is nothing else to interact with or govern its interaction. This leads to a symbolic Master equation which, considered in light of real physics measurement and history can reasonably be interpreted to be the most general mathematical operator, the directional derivative or tangent vector and the field interpreted as gravity.

    Each of us has to choose, from the myriad topics of physics, where to place emphasis. Many focus on special relativity, however that is not an area that unduly perturbs me. Similarly, gravitational versus inertial mass seems consistent with my theory and I have therefore not focused on this issue. The equivalence principle seems OK to me. I do not recall seeing your discussion of inertial and gravitational mass and your ratio mg/mi, so I cannot comment here. I have no current opinion on sterile neutrinos, either.

    In short, I agree with a number of your statements, as you do with mine, and thank you for looking at my essay and responding.

    Good luck in the contest.

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Steve,

      When I ask the question, "What is the best physical theory?" I am doing so in the framework in which the 'robot' is processing measurement data, extracting features, applying dynamical descriptions, and formulating a theory, but not necessarily a unique theory. Therefore the question relates to the use of entropy or other means of deciding between two or more theories that describe the same experiments. It is definitely not to be interpreted as my 'opinion' of what is the best theory.

      The answer that I derive is based on Gibbs theorem showing that if a hypothesis, Hj, exists such that prediction, p(Zi|Hj) coincides with the experimental frequency Ai, its credibility p(Hj|A1, A2, ...An) will exceed that of any other hypothesis. If large numbers of experiments are performed, the difference in credibility will be enhanced, leading to the selection of Hj as the most credible of the competing hypotheses.

      Its a mathematical decision of what is the best theory, not a personal one.

      Thanks for you bringing this confusion to my attention.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Darth,

      You are correct that General Relativity in the weak field limit leads to the GEM equations, and therefore implies gravito-magnetism. However it is true that Einstein failed to solve the magneto-static problem in general relativity, and more so that Maxwell and Heaviside decided that the field was too weak to be of significance.

      I have modified two of the equations in classical GEM, as indicated in my essay, and believe that very significant consequences derive from this. While a subset of physicists may be very familiar with the C-field, I think that most are not, and if they are, they do not think it generally significant. I may be wrong about that.

      I do not have access to Astrophys. Space Sci. so I cannot comment here, and I will let the Phys Rev Lett article I cited speak for itself. It is hard to derive and defend a new theory of the universe without sometimes sounding arrogant, but I try to hold these to a minimum. I also try to hold my mis-statements to a minimum, so thank you for calling me on what you view as a mis-statement.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Darth,

      I believe my previous response to you applies here also. I invite you to focus on my changes to GEM and potential consequences deriving therefrom, and forgive me for making overly general statements that certainly do not apply to a subset of physicists.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear Darth,

      Re-reading your comment, you seem most offended by my statement that General Relativity is of limited application. I know this may be offensive to some, but that does not mean it is false.

      My approach to reality is that topology or connectedness is of primary significance, and distance, or metric overlay on topology is secondary. I view these as essentially separable problems. I think Doug Sweetser's diagram (reproduced in my essay) illustrates this beautifully.

      So a major question appears to me to be whether the universe is "flat" or not. I understand this to be the consensus belief today, and I do not challenge it as it fits my theory nicely. But if the universe *is* flat, then General Relativity seems to be most applicable in those local situations where a non-linear metric is most appropriate, such as black holes and neutron stars, and to have less significance where Euclidean geometry seems to apply, that is, almost everywhere. If the universe were *not* flat, then GR would be paramount. As it is (or appears to be) GR is primarily of local applicability. Again, I may be wrong.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      From a comment I made to Peter Jackson:

      I don't believe that 'empty space' exists, as I believe gravity to be a continuous field filling space everywhere. Frank Wilczek seems to say the same about 'quantum fields' everywhere in space, but I reject 'quantum fields'. If gravity is the primordial or underlying field, then it may provide the 'medium' in which E and M trade energy as the photon travels, and the C-field circulation, as explained in my essay, helps conserve the photon's inertial momentum.

      You state that "Max Planck's proposal of a compressible aether, more dense at the surface countered Lorentz's first objection...[but not] that the speed of light would be affected by density." It is along these lines that I think my equation 7 may have relevance, when the right hand side is viewed as variation of density. I haven't yet worked out the case of photons traversing a region of space, (dV =dx**3), subject to

      d(t)/dV = d(m)/dx --- (in units of Planck action, h) .

      The 'time dilation' dt, here would seem to imply that a distributed light wave/photon would 'bend' as a function of the variation in mass density, dm/dx, (where, in the most general case, dm is the change in gravitational energy with x.) This is for an extended wave front traversing a variable density region at right angles to the variation in density. If the direction of the photons is parallel to the direction of maximum variation, then we have Pound-Rebka type of dilation.

      I am very interested in applying equation 7, derived in a straightforward manner from my generalized Heisenberg principle, which in turn fell right out of my Master equation, which is essentially a fundamental statement of logic.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

        • [deleted]

        Very relevant !

        The Gibbs Theorem is important for the distribution of energy and informations.

        The conditions for specific series appear also like relevant.

        That permits to see the different steps as ideal gas.

        We see indeed the changement of entropy due to the number.

        The volumes always take a road of distribution.

        Do you know the result of Bridgman for the paradox.

        IN THE LIMIT.....IDENTICAL GAS.....DISCONTINUITY AS A FUNCTION ....ENTROPY STEPS.

        If the real limits of entangled spheres and their pure number aren't inserted for an universal correlation with universal entropy....the difficulties are more important at my humble opinion for the distribution of informations inside a closed system.

        The pression, the temperature, the volume are essential for all series of analyze.In all case these steps with limits permit to have some equilibriums for a stability as the memmory.

        On the other side, the volumes shall permit to polarize and to evolve in an vision of complementarity also in a digital rule including our consciousness analogic.

        That seems possible for a kind of automation.

        Relevant your ideas , you see indeed the whole,it's essential in fact the generality.That permits the best inventions,rationals.

        Regards

        Steve

        • [deleted]

        Show that FM waves also violate the superposition law.

        Darth,

        The gravito-magnetic field in the GEM theory is not the same as the frame dragging or Lense-Thirring effect in general relativity. This is a very different idea about an intertwining between gravity and electromagnetism.

        Cheers LC