2020 Vision. A Model of Discretion in Space by Peter A Jackson

Hi Peter,

I've been thinking about how strange it is that we can observe a 7c phenomena. Why isn't FTL phenomena invisible? Things like gravity and relativistic velocity induce a Time Dilation and frequency shift in photons. When we observe the light emanations from something moving relativistically (M87 jet, relativistic rocket or spaceship), those photons are Time Dilated and redshifted (transverse Doppler and moving away). But if we can SEE the M87 jet, then some blue-shift has to occur to prevent photons from red-shifting into f=0.00000000...Hz. If f=0, then the photon is undetectable and has no energy. I think you get the idea. But blue shift is what we would see at the bottom of a very steep gravity well; blue shift isn't noticeable on earth, but it would be noticeable if we lived near the event horizon of a black hole. If we wanted to catch up to the 7c jet, we would have to climb an enormous gravity potential (10g acceleration for months, oh my). In fact, the M87 jet might be a phenomena that can punch through the 0.9999999999999999999999999c barrier.

I think you're saying that such a 0.999...c barrier can span multiple ranges of c if the particles of a gas have a high enough energy distribution. Such a high energy distribution is only possible through something as violent as an M87 energy jet.

I can't see it, but I can feel the implications in my bones. Time dilation of photons is one thing. But time dilation of long duration events (minutes, days, years, millenia) is going to bite us in the butt. I just don't know where our collective physics butt is, not yet.

One more thing. Photons carry causality. If an M87 jet goes by at 6 or 7c, then there is a problem with maintaining the causality chain across that velocity range and photon frequency range. Time dilation and frequency shifting can only range from f=1Hz (radio wave) to f=10^22Hz (gamma rays). A time dilation shift outside that range is ... well, weird. It implies the existence of incredibly huge gravity potential or wormhole like behavior. A wormhole is just a gravity field that causes you to fall from one point in space to another. But what if the gravity potential required you to climb from one point in space to another? What is the opposite of a wormhole? Whatever we call it, it would permit multiple ranges of the speed of light. To say it another way, a photon would frequency shift multiple ranges of 10^22Hz from one end to the other.

If I'm getting too abstract, feel free to just move on.

I'm sorry for jabbering on your essay thread, I thought of something else. Photon frequency also carries information content. When photons redshift, information is lost; well, I think the information is still there, it's just blurred or indistinct. Loss of detail occurs when the photons are redshifted. but when the photons are blue shifted again, the information is recovered.

Do you understand what I mean by that?

Peter,

1. I wasn't referring to compression. In Entropy/information theory, the information content is twice the frequency. I'll have to find the equation. Basically, that means that redshift reduces the frequency and therefore reduces the information content that is being carried. But if the photons are again blue-shifted, that should recover the information content.

2. I'm OK with a broken path (absorption,emission,absorption,emission...). You said, "You missed the point about the edge of the shadow. " Shadow is only the absence of photons. But photons still move at c; so shadow edges have to move at c as well.

3. Causality is transmitted by photons. If the Sagnac effect of galaxies or some other phenomena gets these out of order, it's interesting but it's not a time machine.

P:"But be prepared to conceive of the CMB 'rest frame' field condensing particles, and NOT in conserved photons. "

I'll be happy to take a look at the CMB "rest frame". I'm not sure what you mean by conserved photons. Energy is conserved. Time dilation changes the frequency of photons. If photons are absorbed and re-emitted, then the energy has to go somewhere. Perhaps energy is being exchanged between the photons and the CMB rest frame.

Dear Peter,

I'm going to need a minimum of five lasers of different wavelengths. This is why. What happens to the photons of a laser when the beam is shined straight into a a blackhole? The photons blue shift. What does that mean? That means that every photon is undergoing:

1. an increase in frequency,

2. an increase in energy and,

3. an increase in momentum.

Why? Because the beam is experiencing a gravitational force. Call it conjecture, but I suspect that if I can duplicate the frequency profile of a laser falling into a black hole (without the black hole), that I can reproduce the associated gravity field. It's a guess and a hunch. It deserves an experiment to test it.

I agree with you Peter; space is not nothing.

As for shadows traveling FTL, I'm concerned that shadows make it possible to signal FTL? Photons are the fastest particles that we've encountered.

P:"I'm sure I'm not a genius, and James has now got it, (we'll be in double figures soon!) so it's only preconditioning with nonsense and lack of dynamic conceptualisation skills that prevents you from seeing it."

If we disagree about things like c+v, I certainly don't want to be a troglodyte about it. You are free to disagree with me and still be brilliant and open minded. We can disagree without one of us being wrong. Your c+v approach looks more like a frame dragging variation. Isn't that what the Sagnac effect comes down to? However, I'm assuming a constant unmoving frame in which relativity, as it's currently understood, is valid.

Maybe the elephant in the room is like space; it's real, but it's invisible and not directly detectable.

Hi Peter,

When a laser is beamed straight into the center of a black hole, the photons can't fall faster, they have to frequency shift. If the beam consisted of neutrons or skydivers, then those neutrons and skydivers could fall faster as they fall through the event horizon. But photons don't fall faster. Yet, they must blue shift because they are gaining energy as they fall into the black hole.

But consider two observers. There are the event horizon bugs who live on the event horizon (sorry, I know that is spectacularly silly); they endure the huge gravity g-forces. There are also the skydivers who free-fall (pushed out of the space-ship for experimental physics sake).

The event horizon bugs knew that the He-Neon laser was red, but are surprised to see a blue laser.

The involuntary sky-diver sees (just before hitting an event horizon bug), he sees, blue shift from the gravity well AND redshift from his relativistic velocity. He will see a yellow laser, but won't care because he's about to fall through the event horizon.

Note that the skydiver is falling away from the He-Ne laser, so it will be redshifted. So infrared (velocity) blueshift (gravity) averages to yellow; approximately.

Oops! The involuntary skydiver is in free-fall and sees red laser all the way down to the event horizon (and the event horizon bugs). After that, he doesn't see anything.

Hi Jason,

You've made some very astute statements. First you point out that "one particle is its own reference frame." Peter has quoted Einstein above saying much the same thing, and you can look at the figure on page 6 in my essay to see how this fits my theory.

But my favorite of your comments is:

"...redshift reduces the frequency, and therefore reduces the information content that is being carried..."

I hadn't thought of that. I asked on another thread, months ago, just exactly when it became gospel that information is never lost? I have quantum mechanics texts from the 1930's (Dirac) to the 1980's (Sakurai) and QED and QCD texts from the 90's and 2000's, and I don't recall seeing in any of them that 'information is never lost'. No one answered my question.

But assuming this to be the case, you then cover this case by saying:

"But if the photons are again blue shifted, that should recover the information content."

Jason, that's a great statement, but it begs the question: Where was the information stored in the intervening period? Do you have a mechanism in mind, or an opinion as to a possible storage mechanism that does not operate faster than the speed of light?

By the way, did you read that somewhere? You seem to have thought of it right off the bat. I don't think I've ever read it, but it's obvious once you think of it.

Also, consider a photon that's never been red-shifted, but then falls into a hole. As it is blue-shifted, then information must be being created.

I've more comments, but I'm interested in your remarks. I'll probably post a summary of this on my page, as it fits well with where I'm going.

Thanks again, and good to see you.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Peter, you say that, "The information, as the energy, is only compressed or stretched, never lost or gained. It has to be conserved."

I'm not sure it's that simple, but I'll think more about it.

By the way, I'm a lot closer to posting what you and I and Willard discussed. The focus on photons instead of massive particles has been very rewarding.

As for toroidal black holes, that is interesting. I'm convinced that particles are toroidal, based on the C-field and Calabi-Yau manifolds, largely due to the need for a null Chern class. Why do you insist black holes are so?

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Edwoin,

I can't quite remember the details, but the experiment had to do with polarizers and how they could be described with quantum mechanics. If you shine a laser onto a vertical polarizer, then a horizontal polarizer, all the light appears to vanish. But if you place a third polarizer that is horizontal, it recovers the light, or something like that. It's been so long and I don't know what to google for.

But it left me with the idea that the light was not blocked by the first two polarizers. A third polarizer could recover the previously vanished light. The fact that you could bring the light back left me with the impression that it still exists. That's why I believe that physics is implemented with photons AND WAVE-FUNCTIONS.

I sure hope you can think of the name of the experiment.

Dear Edwin,

Sorry I mispelled your name.

I think this is what I was remembering.

Let's say that a laser/light/photons pass through an optical system. They start out as \Psi and end up as \Psi'. Let the optical system be described as

D such that, \Psi_{end}=D\Psi

[math]\Psi_{end}=D\Psi[/math]

Let the optical system consist of

[math]D = CBB^{-1}A[/math]

As you'll notice, B and B^{-1} cancel out. Somehow, light that is blocked at B^{-1} reappears after B cancels out B^{-1}.

So where is the information/light hidden between B^{-1} and B?

One of the properties of wave-functions is that they can cancel out. This is one of the reasons I think that (1) the quantum vacuum is made out of wave-functions, and (2) that space-time is emergent from the quantum vaccum. Space-time is made out of wave-functions.

In the case of redshift losing information, but gaining it back after blueshift, the information was never lost. I think the information remains within the wave-functions of the quantum vacuum, hidden until there is enough blue shift to express the information. Can loss of information due to redshift bare any similiarity to loss of focus (bluriness)?

You asked: "Also, consider a photon that's never been red-shifted, but then falls into a hole. As it is blue-shifted, then information must be being created."

A new photon is one that is emitted from an atom. That same atom probably absorbed an incoming photon. But what happens to the information carried by the incoming photon?

In my opinion, there is nebulous quantum activity that is unmeasureable and undetectable. Much of it is noise, junk, artifacts of information chunkage, and maybe an occasional hidden signal.

It would be a great experiment to try.

Peter,

You must learn to trust the invariance of the speed of light. Trust the photon.

I've been thinking about the time dilation derivation. The observer watches the train go by. The observer sees a redshifted laser bounce from floor to ceiling (on the train), because... the observer observes a wider angle view. The technician on board the train can look straight ahead at the beam, and not move his head or eyes. But the observer on the ground has to track the beam, with his eyes, across a 30 degree angular range.

But what is the secret to time dilation? That other reference frame is really dilated.

If the technician on the train watches the observer on the ground go by, how does the techniican know that he is the slow aging twin, and not the observer on the ground?

If I take a 9v battery, and hook the positive terminal to ground and let the negative end float, why does ground stay ground, and the negative end becomes -9v? I think it's the same idea.

could it be a majority rule that determines what is at rest? In other words, is time dilation polarity (sorry to introduce such a wierd terminology). By polarity, I mean, which twin ages slowly and which twin ages fast. Time dilation should have a polarity based upon which end has more mass-energy.

Jason,

I'm not sure whether you speak partial differential equations or not, so I'll try to express the final equation in my essay in English.

The equation reads phonetically: partial-sub-rho(time) = partial-sub-x(mass)

What is shown in the derivation, but not explicitly shown in the final equation is that the units are inverse Planck's constant, that is, the right hand side is "per unit of action".

Now partial-sub-rho(time), where rho stands for volume, means "the change of time in a region of space".

and partial-sub-x(mass), where x stands for distance, means "the change of mass with distance" (across the region of space).

The result is a simple equation that represents space, time, distance, and mass in quantum units of action.

Now this probably won't make much sense if you think of solid mass, like a chunk of lead, but if you think that a gravitational field (in a volume of space) has energy (proportional to the field squared, like all fields, according to Maxwell) and use Einstein's E=mc**2, then we can think of the change in the gravity (across the region) where the distance x is the 'width' of the region in the direction of maximum gravitational change. It usually helps to draw a picture at this point where each side is represented.

So we have a change in time (time dilation) in a region where we have a change in the gravitational field energy/mass and the two are related. This simple (and beautiful) equation fell right out of my generalized Heisenberg quantum relation, which fell right out of my Master equation that claims that if we start with one field, and nothing else in the universe, the field can only evolve by interacting with itself.

Because you are very interested in time dilation, I thought that I would try to turn you on to this (quantum) way of looking at it.

Forgive me if you are an expert in partial differential equations, and simply let my explanation remain for non-experts who are interested in time dilation in a simpler way that it is typically explained.

Regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi Edwin,

I'm trying to finish my essay this weekend. A lot of what you said is very very interesting. Yes, I speak partial differential equations. I have a BS in physics with lots of math courses.

I derived (wrote down the answer from heuristic thinking) a gravitational time dilation equation using the Schwartzchild radius for a photon that falls from point A to point B. I'm trying to argue that particles with mass accelerate, but massless particles (photons) frequency shift. Feel free to shoot me an email at wulphstein@gmail.com.

I'll bet you have some really cool stuff.