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Hi Dan,

I think that video might be a "special effect". Which only means that it was a cool video, but not necessarily an example of physics.

I would rather work with engineers who ask: "how do we do it". I can answer that. I've been trying to reconcile this "curvature of space-time" stuff with gravitational potential energy. To tell you the truth, curvature of space-time seems to clunky. I hope you will argue of why it makes sense.

Thanks for being there, Dan.

Jason

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Jason,

Unfortunately, the "curvature of spacetime" is "clunkly". I'm trying to teach myself tensor algebra, and it's not too fun. As for Gravitational P.E., even the experts don't like to think of it in those terms. For example, take a look at world re-known phyicist George Ellis' "nature of time" forum, where someone repeatedly asks for his opinion and he keeps dodging the question, saying it was "off the subject":

"Which brings us to the "dynamic dark energy" and -- inevitably -- to the "non-tangible" (Sir Hermann Bondi) gravitational energy, without which we cannot say anything on its "dark" counterpart, in both DDE and CDM.

To make your task easier, please put aside the driving force of the cosmological time (DDE), and focus on its mundane counterpart -- the "non-tangible" gravitational energy. The task is on the table since 1918.

Have you found a way to disentangle time from energy?"

So you see, there not an easy answer. If energy and time are complementary (Heisenberg) and GR involves time dilation, how do you obtain a exact definition of GPE? Without a complete theory of QG, you probably aren't going to get one.

Have a great day!

Dan

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Jason,

BTW I wanted to point out Jim Hoover's essay bio that he is a retired Boeing systems engineer and that: "my personal interests and studies include particle physics, cosmology and UFO engineering"

Makes you wonder whether Boeing had a team working on any of that.

Dan

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Dan,

"Have you found a way to disentangle time from energy?"

That's just it. You're not supposed to disentangle time from energy. If energy is in the form,

[math]E=hf[/math]

where f is in cycles per second; and time dilation changes the duration of one second for a photon that travels from A to B, then time is forever connected to energy. Gravity (gravitational time dilation) and energy (photon frequency)are inseparable.

Can you think of a reason why I that argument won't fly?

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Jason,

You're exactly correct. You're unable to untangle time from energy, but this has consequences for the geometry. Remember the RHS of Einstein's EQ is the stress-energy tensor. If it changes the geometry must follow, so GR doesn't handle large changes in energy and thus dynamically changing spacetime very well. The only two cases that I'm aware of are gravity waves and the Lense-Thiring effect, but our universe is a very dynamically changing place, especially early in cosmic time and near strongly gravitating objects, but also wrt its very expansion throughout its entire life cycle. This is why the mainstream community has difficulty with explaining the galactic jets that Peter uses as a example. It's not that the jets are breaking the light barrier, but the spacetime that they are embedded in is. Dynamically expanding spacetime isn't restricted to light speed. It just so happens that these jets represent a highly non-uniform expansion of spacetime that the relativity experts aren't equipped to deal with.

Quite amazingly, I had one of the authors contact me yesterday on my essay forum. He seemed thrilled to find my essay and wanted for me to read his essay and a paper on his web page. His essay was fairly unorganized and nearly but not quite incomprehensible, but it included a part re. the growth of galaxies from BHs that seemed very similar to the mechanism in my essay. This was just enough for me to check out his internet paper (something I normally would spend time with). After reading his internet paper, I understood why his essay didn't make much sense. His internet paper has a theory of QG that contains 68 pages worth of material. No wonder his essay was in disarray, he was trying to squeeze so much in that none of it made much sense.

Believe or not, I actually read all 68 pgs. and think he may be onto something. Of course, it's hard to tell with just one reading and it did progressively get more involved. He described the QG field as an exponentially varying acceleration field that is intimately connected to the logarithmic or growth spiral, which is what I used to renormalize spacetime in my model. I had always suspected that the LS would have some kind of quantum effects, you can imagine my surprise when someone turned up with a complete theory built around them. Needless to say, I'm very interested in the details of his theory. It just seems too much of a coincidence that we arrived at similar conclusions re. galactic evolution; he from QG concepts, and me from contemplation of the nature of time and GR.

I plan to study his theory in more detail to see if I can substantiate it on my own and suggested that he tighten it up in order to submit it to a peer reviewed journal which seems like he is going to do. It's a fairly accessible paper until he starts talking about the tensors with 48 and 64 components, although it is quite long. You can access his paper here if you want to take a look.

Dan

Hi Dan,

There seems to be a lot of interest in the circulating gravity fields of galaxies.

D: "It's not that the jets are breaking the light barrier, but the spacetime that they are embedded in is. "

I'll go along with that. I just wish I knew how space-time A and space-time B (with v >> c between them), were related to each other.

D:"He described the QG field as an exponentially varying acceleration field that is intimately connected to the logarithmic or growth spiral, which is what I used to renormalize spacetime in my model. "

Exponentially varying acceleration related to logarithmic spiral growth? Wow! That's a bit out of range for me, but it could be correct. It's all very exciting.

But can you make the money shot? Can you tell me if it's possible to make a patch of space-time move by using that which we have an abundance of and have lots of skill working with? Light?

Dear Jason,

Sorry to have not commented on your essay before, but I am so busy with my research and the current research grant. Our point of view is very similar to mine and I think that we both think that photons are very important for solving current problems in Physics. Based on the comments of my essay, I have written a new version available online here http://cel.archives-ouvertes.fr/cel-00530098. I have corrected some mistakes I made concerning bosons. Rather than fundamental, I now think that photons are the primordial elements of the physical evolution of the universe. It leads to a natural definition of masses (without Higgs bosons) and an explanation for inflation (without inflatons). This new version is very subversive but it is more coherent.

Photons can be seen as particles and it leads to the Quantum electrodynamics (QED). In your essay, you are interested in the wave properties of photons. I agree that this point of view can lead to space and time. As you, I think that the subtle relation between light and matter (perhaps more general than light and gravity) is the key of the unity of Physics. A problem I encountered is that most of people think that you are mad when you say that photons (or light) are primordial. But we have to remember the special relativity and the fact that the speed is defined relative to the speed of light. I think that it is very difficult to accept that we cannot go faster than the speed of light. But there is no doubt that this is true. I understand that it can be difficult to accept that particles with their masses are defined relative to photons. Somehow, I think that space and time are defined relative to light (photons as waves) and masses and particles relative to photons. But this is the same relativity due to the wave/particle duality. In your essay, you want to explicitly develop this link between light and gravity and this is interesting. I stop here because it is already too long.

Feel free to contact me during or after the contest. My email is in my essay.

Best,

Emmanuel

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Jason,

I thought you had that problem all worked out :-) I personally like your idea and I just realized that I think that was the first time I told you so. For that, I apologize. I think you've done a good job with your argument, yet it's one of those high risk, high reward type things. To tell you the truth, it doesn't really matter what I think, it's "how much do you believe in it?" I already know the answer to that because you've spent your hard earned money on buying lasers. Until you actually do an experiment with results that can be demonstrated, nobody *really* knows. Just look at it this way, if your right, and you can build the device as you envision it, not only are you an immediate multi-millionaire, you'll go down in history as having created something useful for all mankind. I'd say that's more than just a high reward. I just want my 10% consultation fee. OK, I might settle for 5%. :-)

Dan

Hi Dan,

Yes, I got the laser, but it doesn't work. I have to send it back.

"I thought you had that problem all worked out :-)"

Actually, I was hoping for some confirmation. I still think I'm right about shift photons.

There are reasons why we suspect that space-time itself can move:

1. frame dragging;

2. The Lense-Thirring effect

3. The M87 FTL jet that was clocked at 6c

4. ...

Particle B, in reference B, will always observe an incoming photon to be traveling at c, locally;

particle A, in reference frame A, will always emit a photon traveling at c, locally.

So what is the relationship between reference frames A and B? What happens if they're moving apart at 10c? I would have thought that if reference frame B is moving faster than c, that the photon can't catch up. But somehow, the M87 jet contradicts that.

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Jason,

The M87 jet is an unusual event that we're able to observe mostly on edge. If it was on more of an angle toward us, there would exist a differential blueshift between the jet and M87, the galaxy. If the effective velocity difference is 10c, this would be quite a large shift in the observed wavelength/frequency. Quasars and distant galaxies fairly often are observed with redshifts > c just from the expansion of the universe. It's not that unusual. What makes M87 and its jet unusual is they're so close to each other (cosmologically speaking) with this tremendous expansion between them. If an observer perpendicular to the jet was closer to the moving frame, and started moving toward it, they would end up moving sideways along with the local frame. They probably wouldn't want to get to close, since there's undoubtably a lot of energetic particles in the jet itself.

You can't really think of a photon "catching up". The photon is available to all observers in our cosmos. Any velocity changes, from frame to frame, always shows up as a red/blue shift. Even if you were a hypothetical observer in the jet looking back at M87, you would see M87's photons but they would be redshifted corresponding to the velocity 10c.

Dan

Hi Emmanual,

E:"The photon has in its blood the laws of quantum theory and relativity."

Absolutely right.

E:"This is a branch of physics called "two-photon physics"

Is it true that particle-antiparticle creation from photons has been observed? Or just predicted? I had suspected this, but couldn't find an article to confirm it.

E:"Nevertheless there are practical problems with pair productions because two

photons cannot really collide and light is quantized when interacting with matter."

Very good point. Photons are bosons, therefore, they cannot be expected to behave like fermions. Maybe at the first femptosecond after the big bang, the super high density of light energy found a way to act fermionic and generate particles?

E:"If the photons energy is above a certain threshold called the weak threshold, then photons are

able to turn into massive W, W− and Z◦ bosons following the pair productions"

Very clever thinking.

I really enjoyed reading your paper. You're right on the money. But what is the connection between light and space-time? I believe that space-time is emergent from the quantum vacuum, the quantum vacuum is an ocean of virtual particles. Physicists don't like the ether. I tried to describe the quantum vacuum as an ocean of wave-functions such that wavefunctions are real things that can become energized.

Call space-time what you want, but it has ephemeral properties that allow light (photons) to exist.

Dear Jason,

I apologize for my broken English. Virtual photons are predicted and this prediction is correct, see for example the case of the Casimir effect. Yes at the Planck epoch, we have enough energy to generate all known fermions. I have had a remark concerning the fact that the group associated to photons are U(1), whereas the groups associated with W and Z bosons are SU(2) and the group associated with gluons are SU(3). To be able to turn into bosons in pair production, we need stability. I think that stability implies symmetry. In the absolute, photons are able to turn into all kind of particles with all kind of masses but only stable particles exist.

The connection between light and spacetime is very subtle. First of all, photons as wave fill the universe. Have you read my paper "The nature of time" available here http://cel.archives-ouvertes.fr/cel-00511837 ? Lots of things are in the nature of time. I think that time comes from the possibility of motion for the matter (all massive or charged particle) relative to the possibility of motion for photons which is the speed of light. Spacetime comes from the solution of the Einstein field equation which is a metric that mathematically describe the evolution of the time coordinate and the space coordinates. The connection between light and spacetime is given by the time coordinate ct. We search for gravitons while photons as waves have all the good properties. As you, I think that space and time come from the wave formalism. The particle formalism is not adapted because gravitation is nonrenormalizable. Moreover photons as particles lead to the QED. Photons as waves (or light) are not punctual but continuous and I think that their relation with matter lead to the spacetime.

Best,

Emmanuel

Hi Emmanuel,

Your English is fine. What you have to say is very interesting. I don't think stability is necessary to convert U(1) photons into SU(2) W,Z bosons or SU(3) gluons. All you really need is a very brief period of highly inneficient reactions to conver photons into W/Z particles and gluons. After that, the availabe particles will permit all of the remaining particles to be created.

    Dan,

    "Even if you were a hypothetical observer in the jet looking back at M87, you would see M87's photons but they would be redshifted corresponding to the velocity 10c"

    I am amazed there exists a redshift that associated with a source moving 10c (superluminally). What's the equasion? Is it the Hubble constant?

    [math]v = H_0 D[/math]

    How in the world could I have missed that? The Hubble constant is, 66.9976 ± 13.1214 (km/s)/Mpc where Mpc stands for millions of parcec, where 1 parsec is about 3 light years. So what distance corresponds to a velocity difference of 2c? About 10,000 parsecs?

    Dear Jason,

    I agree that if we have enough energy when can obtain weak and strong bosons. But physicists want to know why we have Lie groups SU(2) for weak force and SU(3) for stron force. To have a stable interaction I think that it implies symmetries. A long time ago, physicists thought that these symmetries were fundamental and they tried to unified all interactions in SU(5) but they failed. Today, there is a new attempt with the Lie group E8 with the "Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" of Antony Garrett Lisi. But I think that symmetries are a consequence of the need of stability and not the inverse. Today, the Grand Unified Theory seems to be difficult because the coupling constants of the tree interactions (electromagnetic weak and strong) do not converge to a single point. Concerning the masses of the elementary particles (defined as a stable product of an elementary pair production in two photon collisions) I think that they are defined relative to photons by [math]m_0= h \frac{\nu}{\gamma c^2}[/math]

    The problem of the Higgs boson is that even if it explains the masses of the elementary particles, there is the problem of its own mass. Moreover it does not give a definition for the elementary particles.

    Best,

    Emmanuel

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    Jason,

    Check out this webpage:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_measures_(cosmology). The second graph shows redshifts up to 10000c which is associated with decoupling. The visible edge of the universe associated with the CMB has a z = 1089.

    Things get complicated over 1c because it depends the cosmological model as well as the type of measure you are using along with the redshift.

    Now the redshift between the jet and M87 is not related to the hubble flow (cosmological expansion) but the local flow of a unique event, so you can't use the hubble equation. Something unusual, something major, had to occur to create this jet. We know the distance to M87 is about 54 million LY and can infer the apparent velocity using the angular diameter distance since we know the jet is associated with M87 and we known the approx. size of the galaxy.

    A redshift of 1c shifts the wavelength of a yellow sun-like object into the near infrared, so 10c would shift the same sun-like object probably into the microwave range. I'd have to do the math to get the exact figure. That's a fairly big change in frequency over a relatively short distance. So image you're an observer in the jet looking back at your home galaxy and all the sun-like objects look like microwave sources. Pretty wild, huh?

    Dan

    Dear Jason,

    Congratulations on your dedication to the competition and your much deserved top 35 placing. I have a bugging question for you, which I've also posed to all the potential prize winners btw:

    Q: Coulomb's Law of electrostatics was modelled by Maxwell by mechanical means after his mathematical deductions as an added verification (thanks for that bit of info Edwin), which I highly admire. To me, this gives his equation some substance. I have a problem with the laws of gravity though, especially the mathematical representation that "every object attracts every other object equally in all directions." The 'fabric' of spacetime model of gravity doesn't lend itself to explain the law of electrostatics. Coulomb's law denotes two types of matter, one 'charged' positive and the opposite type 'charged' negative. An Archimedes screw model for the graviton can explain -both- the gravity law and the electrostatic law, whilst the 'fabric' of spacetime can't. Doesn't this by definition make the helical screw model better than than anything else that has been suggested for the mechanism of the gravity force?? Otherwise the unification of all the forces is an impossiblity imo. Do you have an opinion on my analysis at all?

    Best wishes and I hope you win something,

    Alan

    Hi Alan,

    It is exciting to participate in the marketplace/battleground of physics ideas; somewhere out there, there are 150 very proud mothers with a child who is contributing to the very best reasoning and methodology that physics has to offer.

    Gravity has been an extraordinarily difficult puzzle to solve. Complete with "four-dimensional" "space-time" behavior and mediated by the spin-2 boson called "graviton", the mysterious force of gravity has baffled the greatest minds even today. We are the six blind men surrounding the elephant called "gravity".

    If I had to guess at the properties of the graviton, I would imagine it to be similar to a photon, but with the following differences. A photon has energy

    [math]E=hf[/math]

    But a graviton would have energy proportional to the change in frequency,

    [math]E=h \Delta f[/math]

    Photons have spin-1. Gravitons have spin-2. I would surmise that a photon with a shifting frequency would have a shifting polarization as well. A shifting polarization has an Archimedes quality to it. Equal quantities of left and right rotating gravitons would cancel out any corkscrew kinds of gravity fields; but could potentially be induced by a very clever feat of engineering.

    I think that an Archimedes graviton can coexist with a fabric of space-time. After all, a lens interacts with the electromagnetic field of light, but an atom only absorbs and emits light, one photon at a time.

    But why is Newton's gravity law identical in appearance to Coulombs electrostatic law? If we think in terms of mass M and m, then our argument falls apart at the meaninglessness of a negative mass, -m. But if we use +E and -E as the charges, then something interesting happens. +E can signify the energy of a photon. -E is compatible with both the Zero-Energy-Universe idea where gravity is the negative energy; -E can also refer to the missing lower bound of the vacuum energy.

    In my paper, Photon Theory, figure 1 is an attempt to bring together the positive energy of the photon with the negative energy of gravity. In assembling the pieces of the puzzle, gravity interlocks very tightly with energy in two ways.

    1. Gravitational time dilation scales the duration of one SECOND between reference frames; simultaneously, the photon of energy E = hf experiences a change in frequency; frequency is in cycles per SECOND.

    2. The photon that climbs or falls (between fixed points A and B) along the gravitational radii will lose energy to gravitational potential, or gain energy from gravitational potential.

    +Q and -Q are opposite charges that exist upon point-like particles that are attracted to each other. +E is light (regardless of what form it takes) and -E is the fabric of space-time; they also attract each other (or yearn for each other).

    Gravity and light interlock like pieces to a puzzle.

      Hi Jason,

      I like the way you're thinking about the puzzle combining photons with gravitons and matter. The charges of energy I imagine to be the rotational direction of the helix relative to it's alternative mirror or opposite rotational direction. Each end of a spinning helix are either both positive or negative, but a loop made form helical particles can now have different charges relative to an observer 'within' an electric circuit for example, positive and negative terminals can now come in close proximity to one another. Because we live on a large spinning planet, fluids are formed. Circuits occur due to the planets spin. I don't see where spacetime comes into it personally. We are close thinking on this one and I'll endeavour to get something more convincing in simulation form.

      Kind regards,

      Alan

      P.S Take a look at this Saturn's UFO moons: Bizarrely-shaped Pan and Atlas baffle scientists

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      Hello happy to see your score Jason the creative!

      All the best

      Steve