• [deleted]

Dear Eckard,

Well indeed it's necessary and you make a very good Occam Razzor if I can say,it's sad that people doesn't take these rationalities with more pragmatism,

I beleive you focus a little too much on history of sciences.And you lack a little of universality thus a little of generality.

But you are skilling and rational, it's interesting,rare and important.

In fact you must think by yourself about numbers and sometimes you mix the ideas of others for a description of some words as here the infinity.But be sure I like read your posts.A very skilling scientist.And in the same time we learn this history of physics.

Well the most important is to uinderstand the finite physicality, and the infinity due to our young age at the universal scale.

It's totally different.

With your little f(x)=......there you make the same than the people with their decoherences.......

we can calculate our finite systems....we can appraoch them......we can add or multiplicate......but the finite system rests as they are.The infinity appears only in our multiplications of these finite systems.....RELEVANT VERY RELEVANT AS HABIT YOUR ESSAY.

Best Regards and wishes

Steve

  • [deleted]

All that is important in fact.

Let's take the binar paradox about the diagonal of Cantor and the infinity.Always a different appears.......surprising infinity +1.

The different orders appear.

What do you think dear Eckard about the rationals and the reals.Of course they are more numerous these rationals due to a fractionalization.This aleph 0 with N and Q.We can calculate this serie of the entires.It's a numerable system.

My question is this one, is it continu for you.

The aleph 1 and the reals is continu at the exp.....if we tend to the aleph 2 and the curves.....the aleph 3 is probably the sphere and the aleph infinity is the same .....EUREKA for the distribution of numbers hihihi

Hypothese of the continuity is solved because all is ......in fact all is a question of domains , limits and utilized methods...that depends of what we want describe.....for the fractal....finite serie.....for the binar .....for this ....

Sincerely

Steve

    Dear Steve,

    All three of my appendices are anything than harmless. In contrast to Ray Monroe, I am in a comfortable position: I can blame you for uttering guesswork when you claimed having found applications tor aleph_2 and aleph_3. You would be the first one worldwide since more than one hundred years.

    My appendix B explains what generations of mathematicians were either unable to find out or perhaps unwilling to admit: How did Georg Cantor manage cheating not just himself?

    I am hopefully not the only one who understands: While there is only one ideal property infinity, the same infinity has two aspects depending on the side from which we look at it.

    On one hand, according to Archimedes insight, there is no limit to the process of counting. And there is also no limit to the mathematical process of splitting. Weierstrass introduced rigor into the mathematics of rational numbers when he formalized Cauchy's method of limit. Cantor correctly mentioned that this so called potential infinity is not yet actually infinite.

    On the other hand, a Cauchy sequence approximates its limit as good as we like. While an irrational numbers like sqrt(2) cannot be found within the rational numbers of any finite precision, it has nonetheless its unique place on the Peirce-continuous line of logically correct understood real numbers.

    The infinite precision of a real number is as unphysical as are less mystified notions as for instance one, line, point, sin(omega t) and zero. In this sense, the absolute infinity is not special at all. Adding any number to infinity yields infinity again as multiplication of any number with zero yields zero.

    Cantor's infinitum creatum sive Transfinitum and his transfinite alephs have proven useless phantasm. Their only alleged basis was the second diagonal argument which can be easily rebutted as indicated in my appendix B.

    Eckard

    Dear Edwin,

    Perhaps you are correct in that we personally may loose the battle. However the battle will certainly go on after my dead.

    I have already a lot of ammunition, and I do not expect finding any tangible counterargument in the book by Nahin. Nonetheless I will try to get it as soon as someone has given it back to our library.

    You are definitely not the only one who has no logical argument with my contention.

    What about Schroedinger, his papers in 1926 were the first ones I looked into as to find out where he might be wrong. In the fourth one, I found the most crucial guess as an almost inevitable logical consequence of the usual superficial use of complex calculus. This explains why the team Born, Kramers, Heisenberg, Jordan, and Pauli independently arrived at the same mistake as Schroedinger and Weyl and also Dirac and others.

    They altogether rejected the possibility of negative wavelength, frequency and energy while it was quite natural to them that time can be positive as well as negative. In brief, they were unable to really understand that Heaviside's approach is based on tacit preconditions, which were no longer valid.

    Regards,

    Eckard

    Dear John,

    Isn't money in general based on counting and therefore discrete? Nonetheless, I learned the expressing "how much does it cost", not how many.

    The reason for some physicists to look for smallest particles seems to be nonetheless promising after Guericke's likewise expensive search for empty space has led to the first industrial revolution and also to electricity.

    Regards,

    Eckard

    • [deleted]

    hihihih it's full of relevance dear Eckard, I was right, you are the most skilling here on FQXi.

    But here is my question.

    How could you differenciate those two infinities, the infinity inside the physicality and the infinity behind our walls, these physical limits, quantics and cosmological?

    lET'S TAKE the number of particles in our universe, the number of cosmological spheres and you multiplicate them .......what is this number finite or infinite....?

    Regards

    Steve

    • [deleted]

    Do you think the equipotence and the omnipotence show the road of a real explaination for the link between the absolute , the physical reality and its fractals of maths.......

    The spheres are better than points of course.if a real abstraction of the reality is really harmonized.The infinity doesn't need to be calculated, it is just a tool of calculation for some series. That permits the real definition of domains ....and codes also for some binar systems for example.

    In all honesty dear Eckard, do you beleive in God ?

    Me I am frank, I am a pure universalist, I beleive in something of infinite above our perceptions.It's not a religion or other, no it's just that it's not possible to have a so beautiful sphere in evolution and all its codes without a kind of absolute.Now of course we live in the physicality and if we can't see this infinity, there is a reason I think.The informations continue their road dear Eckard.It's an evidence.

    The human inventions are totally different than our pure universality.There you shall understand the difference ,I am persuaded, between this said universality and on the other side some religious explainations of humans.When I read the sacred books,the bibble, the talmud, thje coran, the hindouism,the boudhism.......a simple conclusion is everywhere...the love of all creations simply.We are all linked, uniques and precious,.......the real universality is the total respect of all creations and the pure complementarity of harmonization.It's better than chaos.

    The aleph is the first letter in hebraic writing......the 1 is the 1 dear Eckards and 1x0.......has no sense!!!!

    Best Regards for your maturity also .

    EQUIPOTENCE+OMNIPOTENCE=SPHERIPOTENCE.

    Steve

    Dear Steve,

    You are among the few who do not feel hurt by my perhaps difficult to rebut arguments. Before I will answer any reasonable question, let me comment on the what has been solicited:

    • How can a spacetime or other continuum--with continuous symmetries--emerge from a 'digital' description?

    - I am arguing that the symmetry of Schwarzschild solution is most likely an artifact rather than a description of reality. Nonetheless, differential equations are certainly best suited to describe dependencies on spatial and temporal distances if there are no relevant discrete structures to be considered. In other words: A superimposed Heaviside function is often the only relevant discrete structure. It does not emerge. It has to be obeyed.

    • What is the nature of space? How would a discrete universe expand without the discreteness becoming evident? Or, does it become evident?

    - This question might bother those who intend to see spatial and temporal distance subject to some quantization.

    • What are the implications of a minimal length, time, or energy, and how could we observe them now? Or, is this the wrong way to view fundamental discreteness?

    - Planck mass could be measured. Counting peas does usually not make much sense.

    • Is a universe that is infinite in various ways incompatible with a digital description?

    - I prefer guessing that reality might be potentially infinite, and I do not see this lack of limitation an obstacle that could hinder digital approximations.

    • How is a digital description consistent with a 'flow' of time? How does causality work?

    - In practice, the potentially infinite rational numbers are always sufficient. Theoretically, I am arguing that Peirce was correct, and the fictitious entity of all real numbers should be seen as a true continuum. I see causality the most indispensable and irrefutable hypothesis of science. Of course, it is strictly speaking often impossible to exactly define single countable objects. Panta rhei. Natura non facet saltus. Causality must not be confused with determinism.

    • Can the World be modeled as (or even be) a digital computation? Where does this picture lead us?

    - Back to determinism a la La Mettrie: Man a machine.

    • Are simple discrete models like cellular automata, etc., effective approaches to physics?

    - Perhaps they are not ingenious enough.

    • Is there a deep, foundational reason why reality must be purely analog, or why it must be digital?

    - Something should be called "foundational" or "deep" if it obeys logic without paradoxes and if it has proven fertile in applications. I gave examples for pseudo-foundational speculations and for foundational pragmatism. Instead of a direct answer I offer a touchstone. Judge yourself.

    Eckard

    • [deleted]

    You wrote:

    "I believe you focus a little too much on history of sciences."

    Let me try and explain some of my reasons:

    - When I got aware of inconsistencies, I looked for possible mistakes, and eventually I found crucial decisions mainly in the German mathematics of the 19th century and in the German physics of the 20th century. Because German is my mother tongue, I had ideal possibilities to read the pertaining original papers, and I found all my suspicions confirmed.

    - Before retirement, I was with Otto von Guericke University, and our faculty was named after Werner von Siemens. Therefore I dealt with historical facts. I got in particular interested in two questions:

    On which basis did the utterly fertile differential calculus and belonging technical and industrial progress arise after Galilei, Kepler, Descartes, Guericke, Leibniz, Newton, Watt, etc.?

    How did arise the application of Fourier's, Maxwell's and Heaviside's theories and complex calculus? Why did Cantor manage causing so much unnecessary quarrel?

    - I consulted mathematicians as to understand some arbitrary definitions, and they pointed me to literature that guided me back to Euclid, Bombelli, Dedekind, and others.

    - I collected valuable insights from public discussions and from literature including a booklet by the outsider Mückenheim.

    - Having experienced very different political systems, I do not trust in any seemingly overwhelming propaganda.

    - Having participated in FQXi contests, I got aware that physicists seems to be still unable to reach full agreement on just one theory without paradoxes. Perhaps John Merryman is not the only one who is highly skeptical concerning modern theories.

    - Even a lifetime would presumably be too short as to thoroughly deal with all branches of speculative physics. My life is almost over.

    Eckard

      Steve,

      You asked me: "Do you believe in God?"

      Earl Bertrand Russell wrote: There are many religions but at best a single one can be the true one.

      I already confessed that I consider causality in the sense of rejecting mysticism the only indispensable hypothesis of science.

      Accordingly I would feel in principle unbiased concerning any further hypothesis including genesis alias big bang, spacetime and antiworlds. They might be entirely or partially correct or wrong. However, there are reasons to be skeptical:

      Don't big bang, primordial elements and inflation remind of old religions?

      Is there at all any reliable way and any need to see beyond the logical horizon?

      Isn't spacetime a construct closely linked with the twin paradox due to Lorentz transformation? Isn't it bewildering to explain the reportedly observed flatness of universe as an illusion due to inflation?

      Arn't antiworlds and physical singularities possibly artifacts of unjustified interpretation of mathematics? Will quantum computing become feasible? Will Higgs be found?

      For such questions I am happy to have found one more independent touchstone. If it puts me inside the mainstream, then the better. I am prepared to accept any convincing argument.

      Eckard

        • [deleted]

        Thanks Eckard,

        You have added a third way of parsing the digital/money pair as regards to the actual counting. And I could offer a fourth in that digital reality costs money, although much less than before.

        I agree that physical pursuits of the mathematical ideas of 0 and infinity have been (despite Aristotle) most important in building our modern world and its history, but I fear the unintended side-effects for my children.

        Regards, John M.

        Dear John M.,

        You wrote "digital reality costs money, although much less than before." Perhaps you meant digital virtual reality and compared it with perceptually equivalent not yet digitalized alternatives.

        I rather felt reminded of the cost for equipment like LHC that is designed as to search for a suspected digital structure of time and space. I see these efforts similar to the intention of medieval alchemists to make gold. Tschirnhaus and Boettger made white gold: china. Isn't the www a spin-off of Swiss physicists?

        "Despite Aristotle"? Isn't his view "infinitum actu not datur" still correct? By the way, there were already ancient symbols for zero. Most likely ancient and medieval mathematicians hesitated using it because they understood the two the first number after what we are calling the neutral element of multiplication: the one. Not by chance, Leibniz invented the dual numbers and also the infinitesimals. I see an overlooked problem not in infinity and not even in zero but in a strictly ideal understanding of the basic measure one.

        You complained: "I fear the unintended side-effects for my children." If I guess correctly, you do not like your children excessively consuming digital pleasures like gameboys, headphones, TV, internet, etc. Well, as I wrote: "Signal processing is superior if based on digital values." I even partially ascribe the present turmoil in Egypt and elsewhere to the desire for participating in such tempting pleasures. However such questions are off-topic. At least my essay deals with deeper issues.

        Since I am retired, I do not fear side-effects that put my employment at risk when I frankly utter what is definitely highly unwelcome to many experts.

        Regards, Eckard

        Dear community,

        While I am still waiting for responses by several contestants including Cristinel Stoica, I highly appreciate the private response to my essay I got from David Joyce. He is a professor of mathematics, an expert in history of mathematics. I will ask him again for his permission to put his reply on this public location.

        In the meantime I would like to try and clarify to him and perhaps to you all which two old notion I would like to suggest for reinstating more precisely:

        i) Euclid's notion of number as related to the ideal notion of unity

        ii) a continuum every part of which has parts as still stated by Peirce.

        Both old notions were accepted until the 19th century. While the notion unity is not identical with any object of consideration like length, area, a countable item, etc., it can nonetheless be attributed to it, and it shares its extension.

        When the notion of number relates to the notion of unity, and a true continuum cannot be composed of any finite amount of extension-less points, which do not have parts, then there are no singular numbers. Brouwer's intuitionism comes close to it.

        Accordingly, we should not declare Aristotle, Galilei, and Leibniz outdated and Peirce just an often drunk stupid American. Even if Peirce was an outsider, I consider him more intelligent than the whole folks including Dedekind, Cantor, Frege, ...

        Let's judge the foundational consequences for physics. Shouldn't we consider numbers and continuum quasi orthogonal to each other?

        Eckard

        • [deleted]

        Hello dear Eckard,

        All that is interesting.

        You ask many things, I will do the same.....hihihi

        How are your glands, eyes, brains,cells,...are spheres and spheroids?

        Why our stars, planets, moons, BH also ...are spheres or spheroids if you prefer?

        Why the rotation is so important?

        What are our big revolutions,the wheel, the motor, the rotor, the turbins....?

        How are our eggs, fruits,seeds,...?

        A water drop, a wave,......Why the favorites sports of humans are with spheres?

        How is our Universe for you? a square.

        Why the particules have a big probability to be spheres?

        a fly of birds........why the circles, the toti, the spheroids, the spheres and the rotations are so important and foundamental?

        Why pi is so beautiful in its pure serie of infinity?

        How are your hands? Why the man of de vinci has this circle ....I will say a sphere around?

        How are really the space and the light thus in their pure BEC? The same simply, an pure entanglement of spheres and a finite serie.You shall understand why their rotations, spin.and orbt.are so important for a real polarity of evolution under specific codes of evolution between these 3 essentials inside the universal sphere......

        Why the sphere, that is the question?

        Why they rotate, why they are, why they evolve these mass?

        Why the 3D is so essential....because the rotations need this foundamental.

        Best Regards dear Eckard.

        Why the maths show the road of the physicality? Because they can be finite also.....

        • [deleted]

        a/0 Why ?

        Why the real transcendance is relevant after all?

        Steve

        • [deleted]

        Dear Eckard,

        I am flattered that you chose to respond to my posts. I will not try to parse the phrase 'deeper issues' since our premises and assumptions about our presence on earth may be very different. I would argue that digital reality and digital virtual reality are identical.

        It is my understanding that divisibility produced nuclear power and weapons, and the human fascination for the infinite can associate with both cosmology and organized religion.

        I hope you find this post less objectionable, otherwise, avocational.

        Respectfully,

        John M.

        • [deleted]

        The primes numbers are interestings....and Euclid said...n!+1.....them they are infinites in fact no? Perhaps if the university of Alexandria has some works about the numbers.....perhaps after all ,they proof what the 0 doesn't really exist ?

        Tchebichev....n and 2n ....they are everywhere dear Eckard these primes.

        1-1/3+1/5-1/7..........=0.77...

        Between 0.740...and 0.78.....a beautiful symphony of sphere helps .....the arythmetic dear Eckard, the arythmetic ....pi/4 , the primes and the constan,ts,UNIVERSALS......it's a kind of road of distribution inside a sphere ....polyhedrization spherization.They make me crazzy you know these primes.

        Zeta function....euler and poincarré fortunally have searched this conjecture.

        Rieman more with complexs.

        Why do you see those 0 on the 1/2 line of the graph.The Moebius function is interesting, isn't it AND ITS VALUES 1 AND -1.

        The sphere dear Eckard, the sphere and its spherization shows the real distribution of numbers.The conjectures and identities are logic.

        In fact it's a play with finites systems and infinities in their pure domais of distributivity and its sisters, the commutativity and the associativity.

        A spherical distribution of numbers .......and the curves appear(see the0)!!!

        Regards

        Steve

          • [deleted]

          Dear Sir,

          Your essay is very interesting. However, regarding 0 and i, we have the following observation, because there is lot of confusion in this area. Here we present the mathematical view of physics.

          Number is a property of substances by which we differentiate between similars. If there is no similar substance, then its number is one. If there are similar substances, then the number sequence begins depending upon the number of perception as one plus one plus one etc. Zero implies absence of the object of description at "here-now", even though it exists elsewhere. Thus, it is not a number in the normal sense. For this reason, no linear accumulation or reduction (addition or subtraction) is possible involving zero. Multiplication and division are non-linear accumulation and reduction. Since zero is not a number in the formal sense, non-linear reduction is not possible, because it is non-existent at here-now. Multiplication with zero takes the object to the realm of non-existence, thus reducing it to zero.

          Regarding i, the concept itself does not stand mathematical scrutiny, as it fails the test of logical consistency, which is the benchmark for judging the validity of a physical statement. Not only it is not a number (because it is un-physical), but also the squaring of complex conjugates is un-mathematical. This is the reason why complex numbers are not considered in programming. In any multiplication, we multiply not only the numbers, but also the signs. This is because the signs represent "ownership". If A has 10 apples, he owns it. If he has -10 apples, he owes ten apples to someone else. This simple, but fundamental mathematical principle is overlooked in squaring the conjugates. Thus, the whole mathematics of the "wave-function" is un-mathematical.

          We have discussed on this and related subjects elsewhere. Kindly read our essay for further details.

          With kind regards,

          basudeba

          Dear John M.,

          What about my use of the metaphor "deeper" I was not consequent. In principle, I consider reality as the basis of all. In that I differ from those who believe that the world has been build according to given laws from at least one primordial element. While I do not exclude this possibility, I am reluctant to swallow any belief in genesis without at least imaginable evidence or applicability.

          I am using "deeper" synonymous with a "higher" level of abstraction and generalization.

          However different our premises might be, I hope we will be in position to negotiate and arrive at sometimes unexpected agreements. So far I did not yet understand in what sense you equate digital reality and digital virtual reality. Isn't the term virtual reality unmistakable? I feel tempted to conclude that in your understanding digital reality does not refer to the idea that time and space are digital at the most elementary level.

          According to my dictionary "objectionable" means offensive and unacceptable. Be sure I do not feel any utterance of you objectionable. On the contrary, I feel happy if someone stimulates me to rethink my own view. Admittedly I did not understand how "the human fascination for the infinite can associate with both cosmology and organized religion".

          Regards, Eckard