Essay Abstract

String theory developed as an attempt to integrate gravity into the standard model of particle physics. However, this really boils down to a problem with the logical concept of the point, which the gravity of general relativity exasperates. While substituting strings for points has its advantages, string theory has led to a secondary problem with the definition of a point: Sub-divisions of space-time can only be probed so far. At very small scales, space-time is so warped by a potential probe's energy, it forms a black hole and loses its meaning. In effect, small strings have doomed space-time. Theoretical physicists are reluctant to give up on string theory, though, because string interactions don't occur at a point, but are spread out, thus avoiding many problems with particle interactions at a point. Yet, a still bigger problem is that some think that neither string theory nor particle theory are background independent theories. In their view, particle theory requires a background, but, in general relativity (GR), mass warps the very background that the particle or string theory needs. Given these problems, some theorists have sought a background independent theory called Loop Quantum Gravity, coming at the problem from the standpoint of GR, rather than that of particle physics. However, in all of this theoretical struggle, no one has attempted to solve the problem of the definition of the point itself. Instead of attempting to ignore it, or substitute strings for it, or devise a spin network or a spin foam with it, perhaps we should be seeking a new definition of the point itself. This essay introduces a new approach to do that, by considering 3D space/time vibrations, where the point is defined as the boundary between the two "directions" of a given physical dimension. This opens the door to discretizing both space and time, without contradiction.

Author Bio

Doug Bundy is an independent investigator, the President of the Dewey B. Larson Memorial Research Center (LRC), near SLC, UT. (lrcphysics.com)

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  • [deleted]

Dear Doug,

What is wrong with Euclid's point "something that does not have parts"? Is there any practical benefit to be expected from "discretizing both space and time"? Aren't past time and future time quite different from each other?

You might consider my reasoning too simple. However, it does also offer getting rid of contradictions.

Do you suggest using your new notion of point in general in mathematics?

Regards,

Eckard

Ekard,

The trouble is not with Euclid's definition, but with the modern definition as something that does not have parts, yet has the properties of spin, charge and magnetic moment. See Feynman's Lectures on Physics.

Hestenes wrote:

"Now, the Dirac electron theory and its extension to quantum electrodynamics is universally recognized as the most well substantiated domain of physics. Strangely, however, it is rarely involved in the discussions of the foundations of quantum mechanics. This is a grievous error, for the Dirac theory entails an irreducible relation between spin and complex numbers with undeniable implications for the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Analysis of this relation strongly suggests that the complex phase factor in the complex function describes a kinematic feature of electron wave motion and therefore has a physical, rather than statistical, origin."

How can a point particle (a term that is an oxymoron in and of itself), as something with no parts, have properties of any kind, let alone a kinematical feature?

The practical benefit is gained in understanding the point and the elementary particles in some consistent manner. As Einstein said, "You know, it would be sufficient to really understand the electron." Likewise, it would be nice to understand quantum spin and isospin, but we haven't a clue as to their physical meaning, understood in terms of complex numbers. Yet, a school child can be taught the physical meaning of a 3D oscillation cycle and why it's equivalent to a 4 pi rotation.

I'm not a mathematician, but I think the search for an intuitive understanding of algebra is related to an intuitive understanding of the point. The idea of zero, in a quantitative sense is related to the idea of unity in an operational sense, which we can see when we realize that there is zero difference between the numerator and denominator of the rational number, n/n. This leads to the two interpretations of number enabling us to use them to form a field from natural numbers, which includes 0D, 1D, 2D and 3D scalars.

In my paper's end notes, I explain a little how this can lead to higher dimensional groups nested within the zero-dimensional group, when those numbers are derived from the 3D oscillations of space and time. It involves replacing the unit 1 = 12 = 13 with R not equal to R2 not equal to R3, where R = 21/2.

Regards,

Doug

    Hi Doug, I can't wait until theoretical physicists come up with the idea of string theory being in the shape of stiff structure. If a string in the shape of a helix were imagined which had structure, it would be able to exert a force of attraction on another string-in-a-stiff-helix-shape. If this wave/particle (graviton) then travelled around a warparound universe then it would emerge to exert a force of REPULSION on another wave/particle i.e. dark energy. Ho hum..

    Best wishes for the competition,

    Alan

      • [deleted]

      Dear Doug,

      Mathematicians tend to be not ready to admit in public that my {link:http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/833] criticism [/link] is justified. You might hopefully not just understand but also appreciate why I am suggesting to reinstate more precisely Euclid's notion of number as a measure rather than a point.

      Of course, your excellent medication for the Einstein/Dirac theories of what you aptly called an oxymoron is definitely more welcome than my humble attempt to look for absolutely clean basics.

      Regards,

      Eckard

      • [deleted]

      Just as many arguments are never resolved because the protagonists are using different "languages," and since mathematics is the language of physics, we will not be able to resolve the outstanding physical dilemmas until we have a new mathematics.

      I think Doug has made a great start in the quest for a mathematics to express (and argue about) the most basic of physical phenomenon.

      Way to go Doug!

        • [deleted]

        Dear Eckard,

        Thanks for your comments. I read most of your paper. It was like going on a whirlwind tour of a museum. Fascinating to be sure, but to really appreciate it, I need go back to focus on areas of interest, when I have more time, and there are so many areas of interest!

        I think I remember John Baez clarifying the difference between the number of points concept versus distance from zero concept in one of his blog entries discussing an esoteric subject of math, but I don't remember the details.

        My interest in mathematics and geometry, while necessarily philosophical, concentrates on a single physical principle: that physical reality consists of nothing but motion, and that all things physical consist of motions, combinations of motions or relations between motions and their combinations.

        This assumption includes the definition of motion as simply the reciprocal relation of space and time, existing in three dimensions and in discrete units. This leads us to consider the abstract notions of magnitude in three dimensions, each dimension having two "directions." The first task in a quest to develop a systematic program of investigation of the basic assumption is to determine the origin of the discrete units of both space and time.

        This leads in turn to the consideration of rational numbers as the expression of the discrete motion and the displacement, or lack thereof, between the numerator and the denominator. In this case, zero is the lack of displacement, while any displacement must be in the positive or negative "direction." But, displacements, if any, constitute units of speed, not distance, because the two Rs involved are measures of change, not measures of fixed magnitudes.

        Thus, n/n = 1/1 = 1 is the unit speed, while 1/2 = -1 and 2/1 = +1, in one sense, but in another 1/2 = .5 and 2/1 = 2. This is a result of the two interpretations of numbers that I refer to in the paper, the operational and quantitative interpretations, utilized by Hestenes in his GA, but with a genealogy going back to Grassmann, Clifford and ultimately W.R. Hamilton.

        When the dimensions of these magnitudes enter into the motion picture, things get quite a bit more complicated, but the development follows a very logical path. The only way to get displacements from unit motion (the zero of the system) is via a "directional" reversal. If this "directional" reversal is three-dimensional, then the 3D oscillation brings up all sorts of issues that are unfamiliar to most people, as I touched on in the paper.

        Of course, the greatest stumbling block new comers to this line of thinking encounter is the idea of 3D time, but you probably can see how naturally and easily it fits into the program and the concept of numbers, as magnitudes, dimensions and "directions."

        And that is the key: Numbers do not only denote magnitudes, but dimensions and "directions," as well. There is certainly a displacement from unity to some number of units, but it doesn't have to be a length, or an area, or a volume. It can also be a speed, but this implies that we need to consider space, and its magnitudes, in conjunction with time, and its magnitudes, if we are to make sense of reality.

        Thanks George,

        There's certainly a long way to go, but the idea of 3D numbers is about to get some powerful exposure, I hope!

        • [deleted]

        Dear Doug,

        Thank you for your hint to John Baez. Unfortunately, he is an overly prolific interpreter of sometimes rather unrealistic mathematics in terms of physics, and I did not yet find his "clarification" you are alluding to. Hopefully someone else can give me a clue. Is a Baez always correct?

        When you compared my essay with a whirlwind tour in a museum, I sadly did not reach you. I tried to investigate where mathematics started to become arbitrarily rather than logically founded.

        I am not surprised that even the very cautiously thinking Ian Durham in his new essay ignored the possibility of mistakes when he wrote: "... while results from ... WMAP have demonstrated that the geometry of the universe must be flat ...and thus 'Eucildean,' we of course have long known that it is locally curved."

        What about your multidimensional small-signal numbers I recall a Dutch outsider who seems to be close to your approach. I got aware of him when he was quoted from a participant of a previous FQXi contest.

        I also vaguely remember of a peculiarity in theory of acoustics waves: Solutions for even spatial dimensions (0, 2) behave differently from those for odd (1, 3) spatial dimensions. Did you know that?

        Regards, Eckard

        Dear Eckard,

        You wrote: "Thank you for your hint to John Baez. Unfortunately, he is an overly prolific interpreter of sometimes rather unrealistic mathematics in terms of physics, and I did not yet find his "clarification" you are alluding to. Hopefully someone else can give me a clue. Is a Baez always correct?"

        Most of the things he writes about, I can't understand anyway, but he has a fascination with Octonions, and that got my interest. I believe that the ad hoc invention of imaginary numbers in algebra, while useful in some ways, is counter-productive in the end, as particle theorists found out in SU3 studies, but, what I like to call the tetraktys, the binomial expansion, up to dimension 3, is key to understanding a true R3. Among other things, it has an inverse!

        You wrote: "When you compared my essay with a whirlwind tour in a museum, I sadly did not reach you. I tried to investigate where mathematics started to become arbitrarily rather than logically founded."

        Please don't misunderstand me. I did not mean your essay was museum-like. I meant that my reading of it was tour-like. My daughter is having her baby today and that's just one of many pressing things I have to attend to, which doesn't leave me enough time to study your essay, but I will! I read the two Joyce documents and can hardly wait to comment further.

        You wrote: "I am not surprised that even the very cautiously thinking Ian Durham in his new essay ignored the possibility of mistakes when he wrote: "... while results from ... WMAP have demonstrated that the geometry of the universe must be flat ...and thus 'Eucildean,' we of course have long known that it is locally curved.""

        In the new physical system of theory that I advocate, the major assumption is a space/time progression, but it included the assumption that the universe was flat and I had to defend that assumption vigorously. The WMAP news was very welcome on that score.

        You wrote: "What about your multidimensional small-signal numbers I recall a Dutch outsider who seems to be close to your approach. I got aware of him when he was quoted from a participant of a previous FQXi contest. I also vaguely remember of a peculiarity in theory of acoustics waves: Solutions for even spatial dimensions (0, 2) behave differently from those for odd (1, 3) spatial dimensions. Did you know that?"

        No, I do not know about that. I also don't know of the Dutch outsider you refer to.

        I have to run now, but I will be back tomorrow. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your knowledge of things and your belief and attitude toward things fundamental. I support your insistence on re-instating Euclid's view of number as measure and Peirce's view of the continuum as infinitely divisible, full heartedly.

        Regards,

        Doug

        • [deleted]

        Dear Doug,

        Thank you for a lot. Looking for Baez I found a current discussion on State-Observable duality (Baez series). Baez uttered something rather questionable as if he himself was the nature. I agreed instead with Andrey Akhmeteli who is among us contestants and who certainly deserves more attention.

        Tomorrow I will try and search at least for the name of the Dutchman.

        I will urgently need your support against mandatory arbitrary definitions of mathematics.

        Best,

        Eckard

        • [deleted]

        A lot of the essays in this contest have to do with the issue of mathematics versus reality. While numbers can be used to count things, they are not those things, but I'm not sure why it's important to make that obvious distinction. I don't recall that it was ever a big issue in geometry.

        In my case, what is being counted are units of space and time. The 3D expansion of space upon which it is based is an observed physical phenomenon. The operational interpretation of the mathematical expression s3/t = 23/1 describes how many measures of space per measure of time are generated from a given point, as the progression continues. Thus, after n linear measures of time pass, (n*2)3 volume measures are generated, giving us the mathematical progression, 8, 64, 216, 512, ... quantitatively, corresponding to the linear march of time, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

        Geometrically, the time units are constructed as the radius of the inner circle of figure 1 in my essay (considering only one of the two constructions there). The volume units are the volume of the 2x2x2 stack of 8 one-unit cubes, which grows to a 4x4x4 stack of 64 one-unit cubes, a 6x6x6 stack of 216 one-unit cubes, an 8x8x8 stack of 512 one-unit cubes, and so on, ad infinitum, as time marches on.

        Admittedly, these discrete volume units in the progression correspond to nothing real, since space doesn't expand outward cubically, in only eight "directions," but outward radially, in an infinite number of directions. However, the inner and outer radial volumes are determined by the 3D stack of one-unit cubes and the ratio of their volumes is equal to R3, where R = 21/2. Hence, the progression of the ratio of the two volumes of the expanding spheres (technically balls) is, (n*21/2)3, or 81/2, 5121/2, 58321/2, 327681/2..., as time marches on.

        It may not appear at first that these numbers correspond to anything real, but the fact that their squares are integers, and very familiar integers at that, indicates otherwise. Indeed, when we look at the ratio of the surface areas of the spheres, the formula for the progression of which is (n*R)2, the numbers are very curious: (1*21/2)2 = 2, (2*21/2)2 = 8, (3*22)2 = 18, (4*21/2)2 = 32.

        These are the numbers of elements in the half-periods of the periodic table, something we might be tempted to dismiss as conincidental, smacking of numerology, if it weren't for the fact that Le Cornec has made what C.K. Whitney calls "a stunning demonstration:" Le Cornec discovered a previously un-noted pattern underlying all ionization potential data: the square roots of all ionization orders, when plotted as a function of atomic number Z, lie on a straight line. (See Whitney's "Relativistic Dynamics in Basic Chemistry")

        That the IPs are something real is undeniable, but that their order appears closely related to a natural numerical progression is astonishing, in my view.

        More on this later.

        The above anonymous post is from me, in case it's not obvious. I forgot to log in, before posting it.

        This info was posted in a thread earlier, but people had a hard time finding it, so I am re-posting it here:

        A lot of the essays in this contest have to do with the issue of mathematics versus reality. While numbers can be used to count things, they are not those things, but I'm not sure why it's important to make that obvious distinction. I don't recall that it was ever a big issue in geometry.

        In my case, what is being counted are units of space and time. The 3D expansion of space upon which it is based is an observed physical phenomenon. The operational interpretation of the mathematical expression s3/t = 23/1 describes how many measures of space per measure of time are generated from a given point, as the progression continues. Thus, after n linear measures of time pass, (n*2)3 volume measures are generated, giving us the mathematical progression, 8, 64, 216, 512, ... quantitatively, corresponding to the linear march of time, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

        Geometrically, the time units are constructed as the radius of the inner circle of figure 1 in my essay (considering only one of the two constructions there). The volume units are the volume of the 2x2x2 stack of 8 one-unit cubes, which grows to a 4x4x4 stack of 64 one-unit cubes, a 6x6x6 stack of 216 one-unit cubes, an 8x8x8 stack of 512 one-unit cubes, and so on, ad infinitum, as time marches on.

        Admittedly, these discrete volume units in the progression correspond to nothing real, since space doesn't expand outward cubically, in only eight "directions," but outward radially, in an infinite number of directions. However, the inner and outer radial volumes are determined by the 3D stack of one-unit cubes and the ratio of their volumes is equal to R3, where R = 21/2. Hence, the progression of the ratio of the two volumes of the expanding spheres (technically balls) is, (n*21/2)3, or 81/2, 5121/2, 58321/2, 327681/2..., as time marches on.

        It may not appear at first that these numbers correspond to anything real, but the fact that their squares are integers, and very familiar integers at that, indicates otherwise. Indeed, when we look at the ratio of the surface areas of the spheres, the formula for the progression of which is (n*R)2, the numbers are very curious: (1*21/2)2 = 2, (2*21/2)2 = 8, (3*22)2 = 18, (4*21/2)2 = 32.

        These are the numbers of elements in the half-periods of the periodic table, something we might be tempted to dismiss as conincidental, smacking of numerology, if it weren't for the fact that Le Cornec has made what C.K. Whitney calls "a stunning demonstration:" Le Cornec discovered a previously un-noted pattern underlying all ionization potential data: the square roots of all ionization orders, when plotted as a function of atomic number Z, lie on a straight line. (See Whitney's "Relativistic Dynamics in Basic Chemistry")

        That the IPs are something real is undeniable, but that their order appears closely related to a natural numerical progression is astonishing, in my view.

        More on this later.

        The feedback I'm getting privately indicates that people do not understand the concept illustrated in figure 1 of my essay, in several respects. Given the constraints of the contest rules, I found it very difficult to include all the explanatory detail I would have liked to have included.

        One of the difficulties has to do with background. There is no background. There are two, reciprocal aspects of one component, motion, which are 3D space and 3D time, but since time has no direction in space, and space has no direction in time, one of the reciprocal aspects of motion is always zero-dimensional.

        However, just as, strictly speaking, natural numbers and energy are zero-dimensional measures, and, to be useful, they have to be regarded as one-dimensional, so also the 0D aspect of motion has to be one-dimensional.

        In the case of numbers, any number raised to the zero power, n0, is equal to 1, because any number divided by itself is equal to 1, by virtue of the law of exponents. Hence, n/n is actually n1/n1 = n(1-1) = n0.

        In the case of energy, any magnitude that does work has to be one-dimensional, because magnitudes that have no direction are scalar (i.e. 0D), while magnitudes with direction are vectorial (i.e. 1D). Energy per se is scalar. It has no specific direction in space, but in its form as work, it must have direction, and therefore it is regarded as a one-dimensional quantity.

        In the geometric constructions of figure 1 in my essay, we see the discrete (digital) and the continuous (analog) expansion of 3D space (or 3D time), after one unit of 0D time (or 0D space) has elapsed. Though the 0D time (space) aspect of the expansion cannot be represented geometrically in any direct fashion, the 1D radius of the inner circle is equal to the time duration, in the same sense that a time line on a space and time graph, or the 1D sweep of an oscilloscope, represents a duration of time.

        With this much understood, the radii of the inner circles are 1D representations of the 0D time (space) of the expansion. Now, the digital and analog representations of the two, inverse, expansions in the figure, each contain the 1D, 2D and 3D components. The digital representations are contained in the 2x2x2 stack of one-unit cubes, while the analog representations are contained in the ratio of the two balls that are determined by the stack of cubes.

        In the digital case, the 1D magnitude is the width (or the height, or the depth) of the stack, while the 2D magnitude is one of the faces of the stack, and the 3D magnitude is the volume of the stack.

        In the corresponding analog case, the 1D magnitude is the ratio of ball diameters, the 2D magnitude is the ratio of the spherical surfaces (or else the cross-sections of the balls), and the 3D magnitude is the ratio of the volumes of the balls.

        The reason that the analog magnitudes are taken as the ratio of the two balls is because the magnitudes of the inner ball are necessarily less than the magnitudes of the stack, while the magnitudes of the outer ball are necessarily greater than the magnitudes of the stack. It turns out, however, that their ratios are integers and square roots of integers, which means that the digital magnitudes can be directly related to the analog magnitudes, not just approximated!

        As the expansion continues beyond the one unit elapsed time stage, the digital and analog magnitudes follow their respective geometric progressions, part of which is explained in the previous post above. The key point is that these units can be arranged in the customary mathematical forms called groups. The usual 1D digital groups of integers and rational numbers apply, plus a new group with the square root of 2 as the 1D unit, instead of the number 1 as the 1D unit, applies.

        However, this new group contains 2D and 3D elements as well as 1D elements, which provides for 1D, 2D and 3D scalar algebras called division algebras, which have all the properties an algebra needs to have to be used in physics.

        Ultimately, this means that the 3D oscillations of these units, and their mathematical combinations and relations between their combinations, can be used as building blocks, called preons, to build the particles of the standard model of physics, at least in part. The hope is that the entire model will eventually emerge, including gravity. If this turns out as hoped, it will be very strong evidence that the physical universe consists of one component, motion, existing in three dimensions, in discrete units, with two reciprocal aspects, space and time.

        I hope this helps.

        I've been asked to provide a graphic depicting what I mean by the "common origin" of the 3D oscillation. Here is the best I can do for now:

        3D Oscillation

        I'll try to improve it when I get time, but it should be good enough to convey what is meant by the common origin of the two, reciprocal, volumes that define a true point of no spatial extent and no duration.

        BTW one cycle of this motion is equivalent to 4pi rotation (something inexplicable until now.

          Hello Doug,

          Judging by the Abstract and some comments, your essay looks very interesting. I've explored some related ideas but I'm interested in what you have to say. It would seem that you are touching on some of the constructive basis for the 0-brane, in the comment immediately above. I have argued in the past that a true point is unobservable - or not verifiably constructable - because it has no duration.

          I'll have more comments here once I finish reading. You can find my essay here, and comment there if you like.

          Good Luck,

          Jonathan J. Dickau

            • [deleted]

            Dear Doug,

            The excellent book I referred to was "Theoretical acoustics" by Philip M. Morse and Ingard, Princeton Univ. Press 1986.

            The Dutch outsider was Miles Mathis, perhaps alias Oostdijk, fqxi topic 595. I thought I did give you his name already yesterday. Maybe I failed to do so.

            Regards,

            Eckard