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Anil,

The question: "Could the story of the cosmos have been told sideways rather than from past to future?" is meaningless. We are able to look at the history of the universe only diagonally, since the information that we receive is always tied to both the distance and time of the emitting object. We can only make mostly vague inferences for the states (past, in the spatially present, and future) of all objects in the universe at any specified time other than the time of observation. Unless Craig Callender possesses some omnipotent power, how is he going to get the data he needs for his construction, let alone evolution, of the east-west slice? And, how does he propose to vary time only, without varying space as well?

Dan

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    At the risk of being seen as "old-fashioned" and/or of belaboring what should be obvious, it is worthwhile at the outset of this (or any) discussion to ensure that all participants in the discussion share a common understanding of the terminology involved. So would it be correct to assume that the definition of time being used in this article is the so-called "operational definition of time," i.e., "time is that which is measured by clocks"? And, if so, would it be correct to further assume that a clock is defined as being "a device which measures time"?

    If so, let the discussion proceed. If not, please clarify how the terms being discussed in this article differ from the above. Thank you.

    Please note that what we refer to as "the flow of time" is nothing more and nothing less than the evolution of the physical universe, as discussed further here and here. This view of the flow of time goes a long way toward explaining the various "arrows" of time.

    Regards,

    jcns

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    There is an excellent and almost sufficient book by Zeh on the arrow of time, not in time. "Almost" refers to what I consider the necessary blunt rejection of the belief which was uttered not just in the mentioned letter of condolence.

    Claude Shannon expressed more clearly what is wrong with anticipatory tense-less physics: While the past is known, in principle, but can definitely not be changed, the future can be influenced, in principle, but not for sure be predicted.

    I do not see this distinction attributable to subjective perception. There are objectively no traces of future events. If we restrict to physics, i.e. to the consideration of measurable data, then there is of course no genuine symmetry and not even asymmetry but a clear-cut one-sidedness. In reality, there is no negative elapsed time, as also is no negative spatial distance.

    I do not expect anything of value from Craig Callender's effort as long as he is not ready to accept that the usual notion of time is just an extended abstraction from the unilateral scale of already measurable traces.

    On the origin of apparent symmetry I wrote an IEEE paper and three FQXi-essays.

    Eckard

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    I suppose he could vary "time only" if he was proposing supercomputer simulations similar to those of Carlos Frenk, etc. But, since Craig is a philosopher, I not exactly sure what he's proposing.

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    I agree with Eckard & J.C.N.

    What we call time is generally considered to be that which we measure with clocks, that is, regular physical processes, evolving configurations. The thermodynamic "arrow" is due to the physical laws which enable this motion combined with statistical mechanics (entropy), as per Boltzmann. The causal arrow is I believe due once again to the physical laws , which enable "events" to take place, combined with the constraint of the absolute speed of light.

    The end result of the above is that we can only observe processes occurring as governed by the laws of nature in a particular order, including the thermodynamic "statistical" order in a lorentz frame structure. This has nothing to do with a separate entity called "time". I feel that too many people draw a direct correlation between entropy and "time", an example being Sean Carroll in his recent book "From Eternity To Here". If we saw an apple falling upward to re-attach to the tree, we would think it very strange, but we would not think that time was going in reverse. There are many examples of entropy reversing/decreasing due to gravity for instance. I believe that when considered globally, the formation of a star is an entropy lowering process. We would not consider time to be *running backward* when we observed this process!

    If an observer were able to "freeze" the universe while remaining conscious, the observer's "psychological arrow" would still give the sense of "duration" and "moving present" due to brain processes, whilst the frozen universe would appear "timeless" only in the sense that there would be no means to "measure" a "time" interval. I believe it is more helpful to think of what we call time as being emergent from these underlying processes purely as a way of " measuring" them, in the same way that temperature "measures" kinetic energy but is not itself fundamental.

    Viewed in this way "time" can be thought of as actually being "energy potential" when talking about time operators in our theories and a "magnitude of change" when measured by clocks.

    Roy

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      Callender clearly rejects special relativity's conclusions concerning time but these conclusions are RIGOROUSLY DEDUCED from two premises: the principle of relativity and the principle of constancy of the speed of light. If the approach is honest, rejecting the conclusion leads to hinting (at least) at the false premise.

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        "If we saw an apple falling upward to re-attach to the tree, we would think it very strange, but we would not think that time was going in reverse. There are many examples of entropy reversing/decreasing due to gravity for instance."

        If you are considering a closed system then you could expend energy to decrease the system's entropy, however, the universe would still have a net gain of entropy increase.

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        This gravity probe B

        http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-05-gravity-probe-einstein-theories.html

        proves following:

        -cosmic space is 3D - because all the angles are measured in three directions X,Y,Z

        -cosmic space has granular structure - frame dragging

        outcome is that time we measure with clocks cannot be the 4th dimension of space:

        http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-scientists-spacetime-dimension.html

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        The human brain has evolved a frontal lobe which is what allows us to care about the future. Most other life only reacts to the stimulus in the present moment. I would like to see a physicist or philosophers take on entropy/fitness.

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        I don't think Callander "rejects special relativity's conclusions", only the "block universe" interpretation of them, quite rightly too in my opinion. It is possible to formulate a relativistic spacetime model which evolves. Two notable attempts are George Ellis's "Evolving Block Universe" (which I think is a misnomer and a mistake to use the word "block", perhaps a better word might be "hypersurface"?) and Joy Christian's "Relative Becoming" model. These have the nice advantage of allowing free will also!

          • [deleted]

          "If you are considering a closed system then you could expend energy to decrease the system's entropy, however, the universe would still have a net gain of entropy increase."

          The point is though, that the reversal of entropy does not mean a reversal of "time" and the example of the apple is a reversal in the *order* of physical processes not of "time", as we could just as well calibrate our clocks by regular processes where gravity is repulsive for instance.

          Your statement I think refers to the "Maxwell's Demon" principle where the energy expended to decrease entropy (or it's information content), must be accounted for as additional entropy and that is right. I don't think that applies in the case of gravity however if you consider the "closed system" to be the universe. Gravitational fields are considered to contain negative energy, hence the cosmic energy equation of state E = 0. When gravity acts to form a star I view that *cosmically* as a lower entropy macrostate. (Which contains the most useful energy that can "do work", the star or the hydrogen gas cloud that formed it?). The energy required to increase the entropy or restore the cosmic entropy number is stored in the star and is slowly radiated back out and eventually fully returned by supernova for example.

          I guess it depends on your definition of information and how you quantify the energy content of gravitational fields. Black holes are a whole other case!!

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          "If physics can explain how a causal arrow of time emerges, then biology will do the rest, says Callender."

          If the flow of time is viewed (correctly, in my opinion) as being nothing more and nothing less than the evolution of the physical universe (an evolution which is governed by rules that we strive to understand and which we refer to as the laws of physics), then there is no way for "a causal arrow of time" *not* to emerge!

          jcns

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          The fallacy is indeed not very obvious. As a schoolboy I was cheated by the teacher who explained Galilei's flawless principle of relativity and attributed it to Einstein. Most textbooks derive the Lorentz transformation from postulated equivalence of all inertial reference frames. Actually, Poincaré's LT predates what Einstein in 1905 on p. 891 called "principle of relativity".

          Seemingly a shift in time must not matter. So called laws of physics remain apparently unchanged. I came to the insight that this invariance only holds on the level of abstracted and extrapolated time scale. This usual notion of time must not be confused with the already elapsed time of reality. The latter has peculiarities: It cannot at all be shifted at will, and it only excludes the past. The usual notion of time is in this respect unphysical, and Poincarè's round-trip synchronization includes something that does not yet exist at the moment of consideration.

          Hence the first premise is untenable. Yes, if Callender is honest then he has to hint at the false premise.

          By the way, mathematicians also considered Cantor's naive set theory rigorously deduced, and Hilbert fought for this belief in a paradise by replacing it with the method of axioms which were ambiguously enough designed as to hide Cantor's mistake and avoid obvious paradoxes.

          Eckard

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          time arrow has no physical existence, time does not point anywhere, time is a numerical order of change

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          There is a bit of confusion apparent. There are a number of ways of looking at this. Group theory is a good way of looking at this. Relativity is given by the group SO(3,1), which is a set of transformations that can be thought of as rotations. The group SO(3) describes the set of rotations in three dimensional space. The group SO(3,1) has this indefinite metric, where the one separated by a comma reflects the pseudo-Euclidean metric. This group can be decomposed into SU(2)xSU(1,1). SU(2) is related to SO(3) by a double cover, and is a set of elliptical rotations. SU(1,1) is a hyperbolic variant of SU(2). SU(2) contains 3 rotational matrices (often represented by Pauli matrices) and these are pure spatial rotations. SU(1,1) has 3 elements which correspond to Lorenz boosts.

          If we think of pushing a spatial manifold in time this can be thought of changing elements that transform under group SU(2) according to elements which construct time and the hyperbolic SU(1,1). We may similarly think of trying to transform a manifold with two spatial dimensions and one of time according to the SU(2) elements. This will result in a noncommutative algebra. This is then equivalent to saying that pushing a slice of space through time is different from pushing a 3-dimensional spacetime through a spatial distance.

          Cheers LC

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            Eckard Blumschein wrote: "Yes, if Callender is honest then he has to hint at the false premise."

            Impossible. George Orwell calls this "crimestop":

            http://www.liferesearchuniversal.com/1984-17

            George Orwell: "Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity."

            Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com

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              Dear Roy,

              Can a reform of SR and spacetime overcome all paradoxes? To me, the wording Evolving Block Universe by George Ellis illustrates the calamity. It sounds to me like a cruciader in his burka or like communist free market economy. Did Joy Cristian's attempt resolve the problems? Will Lee Smolin achieve the impossible?

              I would rather prefer a honest clarification on the fundamental level, no matter what hurting implications are to be expected. When Hilbert defended Cantor's paradise against Brouwer, he also warned of a huge heap of rubble. This was exaggerated.

              Regards,

              Eckard

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              The question as to why the 'arrow of time' is one directional is very easy to answer, if one understands what reality and 'time' actually is, which I would suggest is a very good start point.

              Since light travels at a speed that does not vary from one wave to the next, then each state of any given entity, can only be seen (by human and non-human)in the sequence of change in which it occurred. Otherwise you would see flowers blooming before the buds had formed, etc. This statement works for any medium that coneys experiential information to our senses. It also works if the speed of light has changed historically (that just makes calculation of the original state manifested in the observation a lot more difficult). Our sense of 'time' is actually a perception of real change. And yes we have instigated a man-made measuring system called time, but don't let that confuse the underlying issue, which is about change in reality.

              Paul Reed

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              Lawrence,

              What an excellent, clear and wonderfully concise description of spacetime geometry.

              My own model turns the kinematic on its head. That is, instead of assuming that space coordinates construct time, I assume without loss of generality that the time metric constructs space. Then the pseudo-Euclidean metric of SO(3,1) by analytic continuation over n-dimension Euclidean manifolds (n-dimension sphere kissing) accounts for non-commutativity of the metric in d >= 3 -- while preserving classical time reverse symmetry. (For dimensions < 4, we need the complete C* algebra.)

              This works all the way from the hyperbolic 2 dimension manifold SU(2) where string theory lives, through n dimensions. It has an important added advantage: because all even dimension spacetimes reduce to 0 1, we have the smooth extension of general relativity to n dimensions. Einstein's model -- being finite in time and unbounded in space -- becomes finite in space and unbounded in time, without sacrificing any of the physics we know, and without introducing superfluous assumptions.

              I then show from this result, that gravity is entropic over n dimensions, and that our 4 dimension horizon is equivalent to the 10 dimension (9 1) limit, due to information loss.

              Tom

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              LC and Tom,

              Would it be possible for either (or both) of you to express your ideas about space and time in non-mathematical terms? How do your ideas relate to the human experience of time and space?

              In a post in another FQXi blog (Breaking the Universe's Speed Limit) LC wrote: "A[s] for block time being contrary to human experience or intution, those do not really count for much. The non-block time is just a system of spatial geometries which are related to each other by a diffeomorphism group. The notion of time is actually somewhat lost in this picture."

              To which I replied: "Regarding whether human experience and intuition count for much, I simultaneously agree with you and disagree with you. Certainly, everyone must agree that human experience and intuition have proven to be extremely fallible. This fact is perfectly illustrated by the pre-Copernican belief that the sun revolves around the Earth.

              On the other hand, however, human experience and intuition must count for something, because our empirical observations comprise the very bedrock foundation of science! If we dismiss empirical observations as unimportant (not really counting for much), then what are we left with as the basis for doing science?"

              So how do your views of time and space relate to empirical observations which we humans might make, fallible though such observations might be? Which is simply another way of asking, how can we test your concepts experimentally? Are they falsifiable? If so, how?

              Thank you.

              jcns