JCN

Language is indeed a very poor tool for achieving unequivocal meaning. But from the rest of your post, I am not sure what are "those points where we appear to diverge".

Towards the end of the post you ask 'why scientists do not get to grips with this?' Yes they need to get to grips with what timing really is, but more importantly they need to understand how physical existence occurs, which proves that, apart from anything else, time (as conceptualised) does not exist. But it proves a whole lot of other things, which are disturbing. Note my comment, which I have posted many times before, about the urban myth as to what constitutes SR. You see, I am just a punk who with no previous baggage, read the material, as is, which is dangerous!!

You may have noticed that I am only on here early morning, that is because renovating my son's new property takes precedence, including writing essays. However, I now have one, posting that will be even more dangerous!!!

Paul

Paul,

I'm not sure that there really still are points where we diverge on substance. We do use language differently to express what now appears to me to be the same concept of reality (in the context of thinking about the nature of time, at least).

But what is this talk of essays and urban myths and SR and dangerous ideas? Are you writing an essay for this competition? I hope so. Ideas can be dangerous; no doubt about that. Chap named Darwin had just such an idea. The thing got loose, and now look where we are. Relatives of apes and all. Bit of a come-down. So I hope your dangerous ideas won't push us any farther down the ladder in the grand scheme of things.

Regarding the renovation of your son's property, I seem to recall you writing in a blog post much earlier that we are not able to influence future configurations of the universe. How has that worked out? Is the configuration of your son's property any different now than it was when you wrote that post? If so, are you telling me that some of the changes in the configuration of that small portion of the universe are not due to your influence (and to your son's influence)? Just curious.

jcns

Paul,

I obviously should have written:

". . . are you telling me that *none* of the changes in the configuration of that small portion of the universe are due to your influence . . . ?"

Clearly, *some* of whatever changes have occurred would be due to influences other than yours. Careless wording.

jcns

JCNS

"But what is this talk of essays and urban myths and SR and dangerous ideas?"

Yes, I sent one in yesterday, I felt it has settled enough, though subsequently I noticed I'd screwed up the paragraph numbering! Also, I am going on holiday for 6 weeks soon (have a camper van) as I live near the Tower of London and the Olympics will cause relentless traffic jams (lanes have been designated Olympic officials only).

My reference to urban myth is the presumption that what was written in 1905 equals SR, which it does not. When Einstein introduced it, he clearly defined what it constituted. I do not make this point in the essay, only a glancing reference to the original idea behind relativity. In fact, if I may, I will post something here, though it is others that are talking about it. You can always delete it as inappropriate if you wish. Incidentally, time took up a 5 line paragraph.

"Is the configuration of your son's property any different now than it was when you wrote that post?"

Yes, at the atomic level. Not really at the level we are interested in, ie ceiling cracks have not got bigger, the kitchen has not disintegrated further, etc!! The problem here is secondary schools. This property is right next to a very good one, so having got the first of three daughters into it, they will then move again. Costing me a fortune, apart from effort, but I am from a generation that prospered with cast iron pensions and inflating property prices.

A more serious answer to your question is that our efforts have meant that a physically existent state which would have occurred, did not occur. It's not influence in the sense that one has influenced something pre-existent. People tend to talk about the 'future' as if it is something 'already out there'.

Paul

Paul,

I'm glad to hear that you've submitted an essay, and I look forward to reading it.

". . . if I may, I will post something here, though it is others that are talking about it. You can always delete it as inappropriate if you wish."

You're welcome to post whatever suits you here, just so long as you post it under your own name rather than mine and don't imply that I'm an accomplice in your dangerous ideas. I can't be held accountable for the dangerous ideas of others.

Regarding your six-week holiday, will you be able to stay connected to the internet while you're away? Modern technology has made it relatively easy to do so. Your essay is likely to generate much heated debate.

From reports I've heard in the news, you could rent out your place in London for a king's ransom while you're away, were you so inclined.

"People tend to talk about the "future" as if it is something "already out there"."

Yes, exactly, and that causes all sorts of confusion, but you and I know better. As I wrote in another essay,

"Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of this form of time travel [i.e., the form of "time travel" in which you're engaged as you read this post] is the notion that each of us can, by our own actions, have some influence, albeit limited, on future configurations of the universe. It would appear to be in our own enlightened self-interest, therefore, to use our individual and collective powers, limited though they may be, to influence the evolution of the universe in ways that will make subsequent configurations as habitable, pleasant, and rewarding as possible." (From 'On the Impossibility of Time Travel'.)

A major problem with that, of course, is that it's nearly impossible to foresee the longer-term consequences of our actions, regardless of how well intentioned. There always seem to be unintended consequences. That not withstanding, it seems we must soldier on and do our best to get it as right as possible. Lacking that, we simply surrender our future totally to the whims of fate.

Enjoy your holiday, and good luck in the essay competition!

jcns

JCNS

Technically yes, in so far as my partner has a Blackberry tablet she was given for her birthday. But no, in effect. Because I am not going to start typing or reading responses, assuming there are any. This is unfair on Linda who works, whereas as I am retired. So yes, this was a concern in taking part, but that is a function of having the competition over the summer break.

Within reason, reports are just that, reports. Don't get me wrong, I am not against the Olympics per se, but they are sold to ordinary people on the basis of unsubstantiated hype. The traffic will be a nightmare. People are being encouraged, civil servants in particular, to stay at home and work, the cost is enormous, and you do not need the excuse of Olympics to regenerate an area, if you really want to.

I have written something this morning, makes a change from painting! I had a look at blogging, but could not understand it. Wind up mechanical toys were the new technology when I was young. So for now, I will 'dump' it on your blog. Thanks. Hopefully you will find it interesting, but I do appreciate it has nothing to do with your essay.

Paul

Eintein and an urban myth

It is commonly assumed that Special Relativity is that which was written in 1905, or at least most of it. This is not so. In propounding General Relativity, of which 1905 was effectively a 'first draft', Einstein had to resolve the significance of light. There are two key words in 1905. When stating the two postulates, he writes that they are: "only apparently irreconcilable". This is, of itself, a peculiar statement, because he is proposing a new theory which is based only on these ("These two postulates suffice for the attainment of a simple and consistent theory of the electrodynamics of moving bodies based on Maxwell's theory for stationary bodies"). And both are understandable statements in their own right. Yet he is already aware of a potential conflict. That is, all the variables as stated in 1905 cannot co-exist in a cohesive theory.

The first postulate (the principle of relativity) is a logical truism, ie for physical laws to be valid they must hold whatever reference point is used. Another way of putting this is that physical existence is independent. Use of phrases such as 'frame of reference' have nothing to do with observation, per se, they are about referencing. That is, as there is no known absolute, everything has to be deemed in terms of its relativity, ie difference when compared to another. And in order then to ensure comparability, that reference must be used consistently, and logically (as opposed to practically) any potential reference could be chosen. But there must be one, otherwise a judgement cannot be made. Something is only X when compared to something else, and the calibration of X is dependent upon that reference. But the physically existent state which manifests X does not alter.

In respect of the second postulate about light, this is correct physically, as written. Light is created as the result of an atomic interaction (ie not a collision), and therefore always starts with the same physical speed. That is, the speed of that which was involved in the interaction is irrelevant. From the perspective of a sensory system, that resultant physical effect-light-is a representation of what was involved in the interaction, but of itself, it is a physical entity. And as such, it will continue to travel at that speed, just like any other physical entity, unless impeded in some way. Impediment does not occur in vacuo, by definition, a condition invoked in 1905.

It has to be remembered that the start point was concerns about light speed, earth movement and ether. This did not appear to be, or perhaps actually was not, borne out by the Michelson and Morley experiments. But to counterbalance that apparent result, and hence maintain the presumptions about light, the hypothesis was proposed that matter physically alters in dimension in the line of motion. That is, when forces acting thereon become imbalanced, the shape and momentum of the matter changes whilst that circumstance obtains. Equilibrium is subsequently restored, and matter regained its original shape and resumed its travel at a constant momentum. Whether this is physically correct or not is another issue. So, 1905 has a combination of alteration consequent upon alterations in force, with an 'unaffected' light. That is, it is in vacuo, but everything else is not. There must be one common condition.

The resolution of the 'apparent irreconcilability' was pursued by Einstein in section 7 of SR & GR 1916. The example used is incorrect, the ray of light and man walking are not equivalent (to be precise, the man is of the earth system, the ray of light is not). He has not considered light as a physically existent entity, and the application, as opposed to the principle, of relativity is flawed. So this has not proved his point from the previous section, that is, that the Theorem of the Addition of Velocities employed in classical mechanics, was no longer valid. And this cannot be so anyway, because in order to effect any judgement, a reference is necessary, and the calibration of the attribute will be a function of that reference. In simple terms, the variable of dimension alteration became subsumed by the supposed variability of time, but time does not vary and is not physically existent, there is only timing. Therefore, in essence, the problem was 'resolved', but for the wrong reason.

Because he then writes (para 5): "In view of this dilemna there appears to be nothing else for it than to abandon either the principle of relativity or the simple law of the propagation of light in vacuo. Those of you who have carefully followed the preceding discussion are almost sure to expect that we should retain the principle of relativity, which appeals so convincingly to the intellect because it is so natural and simple. The law of the propagation of light in vacuo would then have to be replaced by a more complicated law conformable to the principle of relativity.

That is, one of these variables cannot co-exist, assuming they are invoked properly and dimension alteration is a physical fact (leaving aside that the effect is being explained in terms of time variance).

And then he writes (para 6): At this juncture the theory of relativity entered the arena. As a result of an analysis of the physical conceptions of time and space, it became evident that in reality there is not the least incompatibilitiy between the principle of relativity and the law of propagation of light, and that by systematically holding fast to both these laws a logically rigid theory could be arrived at. This theory has been called the special theory of relativity to distinguish it from the extended theory, with which we shall deal later. In the following pages we shall present the fundamental ideas of the special theory of relativity.

That is, a special theoretical circumstance is invoked. Where, because of the circumstance invoked, everything can, by definition, co-exist, as defined. It proves nothing, and is a tautology. Neither is it the circumstance of 1905. It is also 'disconnected' from GR, ie that is not developed from it. GR is really the only theory.

Einstein defines SR as:

Einstein Foundation of GR 1916, section A, sub sec 1:

"We call this postulate "The Special Relativity Principle." By the word special, it is signified that the principle is limited to the case, when K' has uniform translatory motion with reference to K, but the equivalence of K and K' does not extend to the case of non-uniform motion of K' relative to K. The special theory of relativity does not depart from classical mechanics through the postulate of relativity, but through the postulate of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo."

"According to the special relativity theory, the theorems of geometry are to be looked upon as the laws about any possible relative positions of solid bodies at rest."

Einstein Foundation of GR 1916, section A, sub sec 3:

"the case of special relativity appearing as a limiting case when there is no gravitation."

Einstein SR & GR 1916, section 28:

"The special theory of relativity has reference to Galileian domains, ie to those in which no gravitational field exists."

"In gravitational fields there are no such things as rigid bodies with Euclidean properties; thus the fictitious rigid body of reference is of no avail in the general theory of relativity."

Einstein SR & GR 1916, section 18:

"the special principle of relativity, i.e. the principle of the physical relativity of all uniform motion. Let us once more analyse its meaning carefully. It was at all times clear that, from the point of view of the idea it conveys to us, every motion must only be considered as a relative motion."

"If it is simply a question of detecting or of describing the motion involved, it is in principle immaterial to what reference-body we refer the motion. As already mentioned, this is self-evident, but it must not be confused with the much more comprehensive statement called "the principle of relativity,""

"we started out from the assumption that there exists a reference-body K, whose condition of motion is such that the Galileian law holds with respect to it: A particle left to itself and sufficiently far removed from all other particles moves uniformly in a straight line."

"provided that they are in a state of uniform rectilinear and non-rotary motion with respect to K; all these bodies of reference are to be regarded as Galileian reference-bodies. The validity of the principle of relativity was assumed only for these reference-bodies, but not for others (e.g. those possessing motion of a different kind). In this sense we speak of the special principle of relativity, or special theory of relativity. In contrast to this we wish to understand by the "general principle of relativity" the following statement: All bodies of reference are equivalent for the description of natural phenomena (formulation of the general laws of nature), whatever may be their state of motion."

So SR, as defined by Einstein, involves:

-no gravitation

-only motion that is uniform rectilinear and non-rotary (which is in effect, stillness)

-fixed shape bodies at rest (no dimension alteration)

-light which travels in straight lines at a constant speed

When gravity is present, then the condition of in vacuo, which was invoked in 1905, is withdrawn. In other words, light and matter co-exist in the same condition, ie a real world where they are subjected to common forces. Light is therefore affected, as Einstein states. One example being:

Einstein SR & GR 1916, section 22:

"However, we obtain a new result of fundamental importance when we carry out the analogous consideration for a ray of light. With respect to the Galileian reference-body K, such a ray of light is transmitted rectilinearly with the velocity c. It can easily be shown that the path of the same ray of light is no longer a straight line when we consider it with reference to the accelerated chest (reference-body K'). From this we conclude, that, in general, rays of light are propagated curvilinearly in gravitational fields. In two respects this result is of great importance...... In the second place our result shows that, according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity and to which we have already frequently referred, cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity of propagation of light varies with position. Now we might think that as a consequence of this, the special theory of relativity and with it the whole theory of relativity would be laid in the dust. But in reality this is not the case. We can only conclude that the special theory of relativity cannot claim an unlimited domain of validity; its results hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influences of gravitational fields on the phenomena (e.g. of light)."

Paul,

"So for now, I will "dump" it on your blog. Thanks. Hopefully you will find it interesting, but I do appreciate it has nothing to do with your essay."

Okay, but if the essay competition judges see your essay here and award it the $10K grand prize I'll expect a hefty cut as "rent" on the blog space. Or maybe I'd be awarded the whole prize. So in essence this doubles my odds of winning. Such a deal.

I've not yet read your essay, but will do so and comment on it as time permits.

jcns

Paul,

I've read through your essay quickly a couple of times now. Must admit, however, that I don't know exactly what to make of it. First, I claim no expertise on the subject of relativity, so won't even attempt to comment on the accuracy of details in your essay.

I gather, however, from your lead-in sentence and from the theme of this essay competition that the assumption you're questioning is a commonly held belief that special relativity arrived, "fully fledged" as it were, in Einstein's 1905 paper, 'On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies.' Is that correct? If so, what would be your primary reason for "debunking" this belief, and what would be the practical consequence of doing so?

I tend to have trouble comprehending many aspects of discussions about the speed of light, at least partly because I believe speed should be thought of as a dimensionless quantity, effectively being a ratio of two displacements, as explained earlier in this blog and in my essay, Time: Illusion and Reality.

jcns

    JCNS

    As said above, this is not the essay. Over the past year many people have spoken of SR, two I know of very recently. I always say X, where X is a reasonably short post, this is just X. It could probably be expanded (and improved) a little further, but I got the 'urge' to get that down on paper yesterday. In answer to your question, then the presumption I'd be questioning is that 1905=SR, and SR = what Einstein said it did. But that is not a 'physical' assumption. Knowing what SR actually is, ie as opposed to GR, in accordance with what the author said, seens to me to be a good start point fro, which to then comment on them.

    Paul

    Hi jcns,

    Your enjoyable essay is easy to read and easy to agree with. You reject the simple logic of Greene, to the effect that "if all space is out there, then all time must be out there too." That's pretty simplistic. Instead, you seem to opt for an 'everywhere simultaneous' approach of a universal present, with messages from very far away places reaching us in the far future. Much more believable.

    As you point out, there is nothing about the operational definitions of "time" or "clocks" that necessarily implies "block time" or an existing past, present, and future. You seem to conclude that there are real distinctions between past, present, and future. One perspective on this is that only the present is real; past and future are mental constructs --past based on records or memory and future based on logical projection from the past.

    If your "wrong assumption" that you are rejecting is "block time", I agree with you, and one wonders how such an idea could have survived for a century.

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Hi Edwin,

      Thank you for reading my essay and for your kind words.

      Your comments are directly on the mark I'd say, with just one minor exception; block time, per se, is not the assumption I'm challenging. Rather, block time is just one of several "hard-to-swallow" conclusions which mainstream physic currently holds as stemming logically from the assumption I *am* challenging, which is that the operational definition of time (i.e., time is that which is measured by clocks) is the final word of science on the nature of time. This assumption is largely unspoken, and although certainly not held by all scientists, it is sufficiently pervasive that I believe it constitutes a serious roadblock to the advancement of science (especially physics).

      I honestly suspect that many scientists have never even given the topic much thought. The equations we've developed with the help of the operational definition work well and give us good answers which allow us to do useful things such as build the Global Positioning System, for example. Physicists, Einstein included, appear to have taken the attitude that if we're forced to believe some seemingly odd and counterintuitive but "harmless" notions such as block time as part of the bargain, then so be it; it's probably worth the candle. I argue that we can keep the useful tools developed from the operational definition but jettison the unhelpful baggage such as block time.

      My argument is not based simply on the fact that block time appears to fly in the face of "common sense." As we've learned the hard way over the course of history, so-called common sense can and has misled us badly on many occasions. It certainly was "common sense" to hold that the sun revolves around the earth. No, my real argument is that the operational definition is not a complete explanation for the nature of time or for the nature of our underlying reality. I believe that in order for physics to break through the sort of conceptual logjam typified by the failure of efforts to merge general relativity and quantum mechanics we need a new paradigm for the nature of time, one which will *complement* the operational definition. Should you be interested, I've amplified this theme in another paper, 'Toward a Helpful Paradigm for the Nature of Time'.

      In defense of Brian Greene, by the way, his ideas certainly are not as simplistic as might appear to be the case from my necessarily sketchy portrayal of them. As I wrote in a footnote to my essay, I'm actually an admirer of Greene's thinking and writing. (I fear that I may have done him an injustice by quoting him so liberally. If so, I apologize and recommend that readers of my essay look at Greene's original writings for the full context of what he has to say on the topic. With admirers like me, who needs enemies?) I believe that one of the snippets of his writing which I quoted is Greene's version of what is known elsewhere as the Andromeda Paradox, which was advanced by Roger Penrose. Georgina Parry alluded to this briefly in her essay.

      But as usual, I've rambled on far too long. Thank you again for your kind words and thoughts.

      jcns

      Dear jcns,

      I would direct your attention to Daryl Janzen's essay. It is a fantastic essay and also provides a link to his recent PhD dissertation which is, believe it or not, a very exciting read. He arrives, I think it's safe to say, at much the same conclusion that you and I do, but in a much more scientific and professional manner. Perhaps the most important essay yet published in this contest.

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Dear JCN:

      I enjoyed reading your paper, especially as the nature of time described in the paper is described in quantitative detail based on the Gravity Nullification Model (GNM) described in my posted paper, From Absurd to Elegant Universe, and my book, The Hidden Factor: An Approach for Resolving Paradoxes of Science, cosmology, and Universal Reality.

      My paper describes the classical time as that experienced in the Newtonian frame (V=0) and no-time or fully dilated time in the relativistic frame of a light photon (V=C)In between these two states, there are infinite number of intermediate clocks and times.

      Sincerely,

      Avtar Singh

      5 days later

      Dear JCN Smith

      I enjoyed reading your well-written essay - it addresses an important and timely question (no pun intended). You have reconciled the world of physics with that of human beings swept on the wave of continuous mutability. I found however that there is one related topic you have not addressed (unless I read your essay too quickly!): Einstein's treatment of time in SR as a dimension that can expand when measured from another inertial frame. This notion that time *itself* dilates, clever as it is, is really bizarre but has come to be accepted as a reasonable notion by modern man. Rather, following Lorentz it is clocks that slow down, not time itself, (and measuring sticks contract not space itself contract) in those situations.

      In any case both in my FQXI essay and my 2005 Beautiful Universe Theory I concluded that time as a dimension is unnecessary to formulate a working theory of physics. But that still leaves my heart beating, more or less in synchronicity with the watch ticking on my wrist!

      Vladimir

        Hi Vladimir,

        Thank you for reading my essay and for your comments.

        "I found however that there is one related topic you have not addressed (unless I read your essay too quickly!): Einstein's treatment of time in SR as a dimension that can expand when measured from another inertial frame."

        Not addressed explicitly in my essay is the idea that what we single out and refer to as "inertial frames" are simply portions of, or subsets of, one, all-inclusive, evolving universe. Particular times are identically equivalent to particular configurations of the entire universe, including the configurations of any and all inertial frames. What we perceive as the flow of time is, in reality, nothing more and nothing less than the evolution of this physical universe, an evolution governed by rules which we strive to understand and which we refer to as the laws of physics. The only "clock" which really matters in this context is the universe itself.

        I'll take a look at your Beautiful Universe Theory. If you ever have both the time and inclination to read more about my view of time I'd recommend my essay Toward a Helpful Paradigm for the Nature of Time.

          Vladamir

          "Einstein's treatment of time in SR as a dimension that can expand when measured from another inertial frame...."

          Clocks do not slow down, as in timing is affected. They are just objects, like those measuring sticks. The hypothesis was that dimension altered under certain circumstances. This may, or may not be correct. The explanation of it was incorrect from the outset. But an incorrect explanation of a hypothesis does not mean the hypothesis is incorrect. The fault lay in their understanding of time (simultaneity by Poincare), and then substituting light speed for distance in an equation with the fault inbuilt.

          SR, as defined by Einstein, involves:

          -no gravitational forces

          -only motion that is uniform rectilinear and non-rotary (which is in effect, stillness)

          -fixed shape bodies at rest (no dimension alteration)

          -light which travels in straight lines at a constant speed (no curvature)

          Please read my posts in my blog, 11/7 19.33 & 13/7 11.24

          Paul

          JCN

          Please note the above response to Vladimir. Although the first draft of what is now 13/7 11.24 appeared here on your blog (5/7 12.18).

          The significance of an inertial frame of reference is that it is (according to them) not undergoing dimension alteration. If a reference is, then calculations can be done, but they are more tricky, and you need to be aware first that this is taking place.

          Paul

          4 days later

          Paul,

          you may well be right, but my understanding of relativity is just enough to cling to a few notions. I need to study the matter more deeply and mathematically before I can respond to your statements. My problem is lacking the stamina for and interest in the sort of extended discussion of historical positions that you have! Perhaps we are saying the same thing in different ways, who knows? No hard feelings I hope.

          Cheers

          Vladimir