Hi Mario,

Thanks very much - this really is an excellent paper (to the extent I could comprehend). While it seems to be evaluating data that has already been high processed, to summarize, the 'simple' answer to my question might be that even slight differences in motion relative to the observer across a galaxy plane can be used to accurately indicate rotational velocities relative to the planar disk. Is that a generally correct summary?

I still don't understand how those very slight differences in redshift can be calibrated to determine specific velocities across the plane, but I'll trust that that's somehow reliably accomplished...

P.S. I also have problems speed typing - transposing letters. I noticed the 'j' key is right next to the 'k'...

P.P.S. In my essay, I seem to be criticizing Vera Rubin, but in fact I do appreciate her excellent work - I began my work with large computer systems in the early 1970s, so I understand that she didn't have a lot of help with analytical processing. I just identify the critical error leading to the false conclusion that has so enormously influenced astrophysics for the past 40 years.

  • [deleted]

Hi James,

You can trust the paper, these guys are good and many other astronomers. Astronomous, in general, are very meticulous.

Vera Rubin was and still is a great astronomer. You see, I have a great respect for the dark matter proposal. It did make a lot of sense at that time, actually, for quite some time. But the last word is always the word of Nature.

Hi Mario,

So did you read my essay and find it unconvincing?

Can you point me to some research that established that spiral galaxies should produce Keplerian rotation curves in any way similar to the Solar system's?

Do you not agree that while using two-body equations to evaluate the effects of gravity for planets orbiting the Sun provides generally useful approximations, they cannot be reasonably applied to n-body systems where n > billions of stars and other masses?

I'd certainly appreciate your feedback.

  • [deleted]

Hi James,

I have not read your essay yet. What do I do to read it?

All the models that assume the existence of dark matter in spiral galaxies consider that the motion of each star of the disc in a spiral galaxy follows a Keplerian orbit with a velocity equal to the square root of GM/r where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the bulge and r is the distance of the star to the center of the galaxy. You get this relation by equating the centripetal force to the gravitational force. It is the same equation for a planet around the sun if M is the sun´s mass.

Actually, as I show in the essay the equation above cannot be applied to spiral

galaxies because of the radial velocity, that is, the orbit is not fixed.

Hi Mario,

Very good - I think we're in specific, if not general agreement...

The blog page is at http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1419

The PDF can be found at http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/essay-download/1419/__details/Dwyer_FQXi_2012__Questionin_1.pdf

The main text is only 3 pages, with 2 more pages of Supplemental Info.

Links to all submitted essays can be viewed at http://fqxi.org/community/forum/category/31418?sort=date

They can be sorted by date, author last name, etc.

Thanks

  • [deleted]

Hi James,

Thanks for the information. I will take a look at your essay.

12 days later

Mario

Original and interesting essay on an important subject where current theory is very incomplete. See my replies to James on my Blog. As an astronomer long studying galaxy evolution I do have some questions.

As I said to James I agree current interpretation is very poor and mainly wrong, including density waves 'forming' not blending spiral arms, and that we need fresh views if we're to unravel the complex puzzle. But consistency with real data not interpretation is essential, and any model must be judged by it's power to resolve a large tranche of anomalies without contradictions. I thus point out some apparent contradictions the length limit may have prevented you covering, so you can present for discussion.

1. All data from kinetic analysis consistently shows that the radial motion in older (redder population) galaxies from the disc to the core (accretion). The outflow is exclusively as 'jets' perpendicular to the disc, (both ways) from the AGN core. No flow is found along the arms of the bar, except low accretion to the core from the inner ends. This does not seem to match the core of your thesis. How are these findings explained?

2. How are bars formed in your model. (note that recent surveys confirm most galaxies have bars, just not all clearly visible).

3. Why is the average stellar age of the bar older than the age at the inner ends of the spiral arms in an open spiral?

4. You offer no evidence why Foyle a et al are 'wrong' when they do give evidence. Do you have anything specific?

5. Do you have a cause for the kinetic decoupling now found to be common?

I look forward to an interesting discussion. I have evolved an alternative model with some similarities which does seem to resolve the above and other questions, so it should be possible. Do follow the links in my blog, and read the end notes of my essay, dealing with consistent fundamental physics.

Best wishes.

Peter

    • [deleted]

    Dear Prof. De Souza,

    This is a well written Essay. On the other hand, it is founded on your works that I personally recommended for publication.

    I am going to give you an high score.

    I hope that you will find the time to read our Essay too, see

    http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1498

    Good luck for the Contest and best wishes to you and yours,

    Ch.

      Mario,

      To better explain why Perter Jackson has referred to my comments on his blog, I referenced you essay in my Sep. 12, 2012 @ 23:46 GMT comment about Peter's statement in a preceding comment:

      "Just to give you a flavour, a Sept AGN paper abstract is here, discussing the high density jets of re-ionized matter. And one thing I forgot the Milky Way certainly DOES 'still have' and AGN. (iro Sagattarius A) Not (back) up to any great speed yet, so the 14 hypervelocity stars it has spat out recently are still in one piece, but there's also plenty of ions and gas."

      Please see my response.

      My initial comment on Peter's blog was on Sep. 10, 2012 @ 22:09 GMT, objecting to Peter's use of the term "Visible 'dark matter'" to describe an image of a galaxy cluster overlaid with an illustration of dark matter 'clouds', as clearly explained in a NASA release: Hubble Finds Ghostly Ring of Dark Matter.

      There seems to be a great deal of confusion about hot x-ray emitting gasses comprising the intracluster medium (ICM) of galaxy clusters, and dark matter 'halos' inferred from identified gravitational effects in both galaxy clusters and descrete galaxies. I think this confusion is exacerbated by the usual colocation of proposed dark matter in galaxy clusters and their confirmed x-ray emitting ICM. As explained in the NASA document, the cluster evaluated in that study is thought to have had its ring of invisible dark matter separated from its plasma ICM by an ancient collision of galaxy clusters (it's not explained how the force of collision would have interacted with WIMPs that only interact gravitationally).

      As I understand, Peter suggests that the perceived 'missing mass' thought to require dark matter is actually provided by hot plasma - in spiral galaxies configured as galactic halos. Peter, please correct me if I've misrepresented your idea of dark matter.

      Jim

      James/Mario

      Free electrons aren't considered 'hot' unless 'accelerated'. Cold dark matter (CDM) semi analytical modelling such as the millenium simulation etc. can also apply.

      To sum up my view, Dark matter is only 'dark' as it's not easily 'visible' in the same way as matter, by eye or via spectroscopy, our main tool. I point out that the plasma that we find wherever we've explored is also not visible in that way, but IS visible (detectable) in a number of other ways. So to say 'we know it's not normal matter' only applies to larger particles of mass. Plasma is a bit of a 'half way house' to matter, but is considered the '4th and most common form of matter'.

      Our ionosphere is the same, and we've had to send the 4 probe Cluster mission there to physically measure it at the bow shock and magnetotail. It is astonishingly dense, and (see the Fig.2 analysis in Rick Kingsley Nixey's essay), it's magneto-hydrodynamic turbulence and change to wavelength is consistent not only with diffraction, but with the kinetic change to retain local c in each frame. My own essay provides the mechanics for this process, resolving many other issues as it does so.

      Best wishes

      Peter

      • [deleted]

      Hi Peter Jackson,

      I will respond to your first comments in a detailed way.

      For no. 1 (on radial outflows) you have just to read the paper of K. Ganda et al. Two-dimensional stellar and emission-line kinematics of 18 late-type spirals observed with SAURON, MNRAS, vol. 367, 46, 2005.

      For no. 2: I did not attempt to explain why many spirals have bars, but the paper did find a hint on this subject: in barred spirals the radial velocity is much larger than in unbarred spirals.

      For no. 3: It is the same reason why stellar populations in bulges are older than in the disks. The disk is younger than the bulge in a spiral galaxy.

      For no. 4: Take a closer look at Foyle paper and you´ll see that it is a blow to the density wave theory.

      For no.5: My essay has no intention of explaining the kinetic decoupling found in many spirals. The essay has the goal of explaining the formation of the spiral structure and it did. The full paper includes more calculations and shows that the spiral structure is an approximation of a more complex mathematical curve.

      See why dark matter makes no sense at all.

      In Astrophysics:

      It has been shown that dark matter does not exist in some elliptical galaxies. For example, the small elliptical NGC 147. Take a look at the paper of Geha et al. ApJ Vol. 711, 361, 2010. The same for the large elliptical NGC 3379.

      Take a look at the work of Ciardullo and Jacoby, Amer. Astron. Soc. Mett., 182.

      Therefore, dark matter does not exist in galaxies because elliptical, spiral and irregular galaxies should be composed of the same type of matter.

      Moreover, with respect to asymetry, if dark matter existed in spiral galaxies, all of them would be symmetrical, but as it is well known there are many asymmetric spirals.

      In Particle Physics

      Particles are either bosons or fermions. As it is well known bosons do not clump together simply because they make the mediation between fermionic states. Therefore, where there are bosons (confined to some volume) there also are fermions. For example, there is no body made of pions or W´s. And to make things worse all bosons are unstable, except the photon and the hypothetical graviton. Therefore, dark matter would have to be composed of fermions, but from these we have to take out baryons because they interact with light. Thus, we are left with leptons, supposedly the WIMPS. And now we face a long list of drawbacks. First of all, only the light leptons electon, positron and the neutrinos are stable, that is, the heavier leptons suffer weak decays. Secondly, leptons with mass are charged, but dark matter had to be neutral but without being composed of oppositely charged leptons because in such a case it would interact with light.

      Therefore, THERE IS NO PLACE FOR DARK MATTER IN PARTICLE PHYSICS.

      2. How are bars formed in your model. (note that recent surveys confirm most galaxies have bars, just not all clearly visible).

      • [deleted]

      Hi Prof. Corda,

      It is great that you found the essay well written. Thank you. I will take a look at your essay and wish you good luck too for the Contest.

      Mario

      Mario,

      Thanks for your detailed reply. Sauron findings are central to my own work so I was a little surprised at your citing the 2005 Ganda paper as I've found absolutely no findings suggesting radial outflows on the bar/disc plane in any kinetic data or analysis work (Point 1) I've checked and still find none in Ganda, but I think I know what's happened as it's not uncommon. There are indeed significant outflows from all types (less from spirals) but all are perpendicular to the bar/disc plane and from the AGN/core region. These correlate well with rates of (perpendicular) accretion (in the disc plane), greater in disc and SO galaxies. I'll give you links to many papers if you wish, but am sure you'll quickly confirm this is the case. It may not of course falsify your basic rotation theory.

      Density waves. I agree the formation of arms by density waves is nonsense. This is however only a small option in density wave theory, the more successful part being that spiral arms self maintain or 'blend out' (i.e. the reverse) into smoother discs. Quote from Dobbs 2009; "The aim of density wave theory, as propounded by Lin & Shu (1964), was to show that the large-scale spiral structure within a galaxy can be self-maintained in a quasi-steady state, without input from external perturbations." (But stellar age evidence seems to best support blending).

      Dark Matter. I also agree much of what you suggest, but ions, free electrons and protons, are well known to exist, and physically found (also with positrons!) in significant density 'inside' galaxies, and similarly inferred outwith the main 'visible matter' disc, in both the disc plane and perpendicular and oblate spheroid. (Do ask for links if you have any doubts on any of this). Densities are physically found at 10^14/cm^-3, so it takes little math to calculate that these could substantially fulfil the gravitational role attributed to 'dark matter.' Indeed it's not only been done but extended i.e; Feng-Quan Wu. Li-e Qiang, Xin Wang, and Xuelei Chen. 2010. Cosmic microwave background with Brans-Dicke gravity. I. Covariant formulation. Phys. Rev. D 82, 083002

      The lensing of light around galaxies is also entirely consistent with a diffuse ion (plasma) not 'dark matter' halo, graded in density with radius. But the best evidence of this model is in the other predictions it makes, which resolves a number of anomalies in astronomy, including the 3yr plus lensing light delays (due to rotational velocities of the opposing edges, now possible to quantify via Sauron and Atlas 3D).

      And Bars of course. Late for dinner now, but I'll revert with the proposed formation process, surprisingly consistently evidenced and at the heart of a paper on glaxy evolution in final preparation, (It's also referred in the links I suggested you read).

      A very interesting discussion.

      Peter

      • [deleted]

      Peter,

      Forgive me for intruding, but I'm quite perplexed about these comments.

      Regarding Katia Ganda et al's report, "Late-type galaxies observed with SAURON. Two-dimensional stellar and emission-line kinematics of 18 spirals," it's clearly stated in the title that the report pertains to two-dimensional stellar and emission-line kinematics. Only one of the galaxies studied appeared to have an AGN. There was not mention of the word 'jet' anywhere in the text. I'm sure no expert in the field, but I don't understand your assessment at all.

      Regarding 'Dark Matter', there is undoubtedly a great deal of underdetected mass within galaxies, including gases, plasmas, brown dwarfs, stellar mass black holes and planets, but additional mass within the visible structure of spiral galaxies cannot correct the discrepancy between Keplerian rotation and the observed rotation of disk objects. Only when the total galactic mass is increased by a factor of about 10, with the majority of additional mass is configured external to the visible mass, in a stable symmetrical configuration such as an enormously extended disk structure or an enormous enveloping spherical mass, can the observed rotation curves be fit within the context of Kepler's laws of planetary motion.

      Ordinary Milky Way halo objects DO comply with Keplerian rotation curves, with velocities diminishing with radial distance. This indicates to me that they, like planets in the Solar system and unlike disk objects, do each in effect independently orbit the distant mass of of visible galaxy bulge and disk. I have some references in the 'Supplemental 'Info.' section of my essay. The only explanation for this discrepancy with disk rotation that seems to fit is that the mass distribution of halo objects much more closely approximates that of planetary systems than does the galaxy disk. This condition exists whether any dark matter exists or not.

      It is very difficult for me, but reviewing your Feng-Quan Wu et al reference, I find no mention or any reference to galaxy rotation. Did I miss something? As best I could determine, the subject of that research was the cosmological relation between CMB anisotropy and galaxy clusters, identified through the density of their ICMs. I do not see in that research anything related to the existence of massive halos in spiral galaxies.

      Please explain further if I've missed something essential.

      Thanks, Jim

      • [deleted]

      Hi Jim,

      I missed to comment on the last Peter comment, but I also think that there is not enough mass in spiral galaxies to substitute the role attibuted to dark matter. According to my model the orbits are not Keplerian because they follow spiral trajectories. As you know Keplerian orbits (four bound systems) are elliptical and may be circular depending on the values of some quantities. There is not much outflow of matter perpendicular to the disk of spiral galaxies. These perpendicular outflows are mainly of radiation.

      On the other hand the halos of galaxies cannot have a large amount of ions because ions scatter light and this would blurr the view of very distant galaxies.

      I do not say in the essay that Katia Ganda´s paper deals with jets. I say that it does deal with radial outflows of matter, this is clear.

      Jim/Mario

      Ganda found no radial outflows on the disc plane, and no other astronomical data that I know of suggests this. Please let me know if you find any. Outflows, also but not always referred as jets, are ALL perpendicular to the disc. It's a simple misunderstanding. If you had followed up my references you'd see this, and why. It's all about the AGN mechanism.

      "Emission lines' is a term from spectroscopy, and a 'tell tale' of emitter kinematics due to Doppler shifts. It is nothing to do with any "vectors of emissions" on the disc plane from the core outwards. The analysis in the paper was of rotational velocities, adjusted according to view angle showing the edge approaching us blue shifted and the receeding edge red shifted. A careful read of the paper makes this clear.

      AGN's are increasingly better detected and, like bars, are now found in almost all galaxies closely analysed. Google will help in a better understanding, (as will my paper I gave you the link to). There are scores of papers, inc. from back in 2001; http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0108509v1.pdf

      Right or wrong, Halo mass (dark matter or not) is considered well established from the various sources and is a successful tool for AGN analysis. i.e. here http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2966.2011.19917.x/pdf haloes are between 10^11 and 10^14 (equivalent) solar masses. Milky Way stellar mass is normally assumed as 5.5x10^10, and "implied halo mass is ∼2 テ-- 1012ツ M⊙, consistent with most recent direct estimates and inferences from the MW/M31 timing argument."

      Studies from SDDS DR-7 give Limits on the local dark matter density' 1.25GeV/cm^-3 with 90% confindence. (Garbari et al.). But include ALL halo matter. As some things are so long and well 'established' you have to read between the lines of some further work, such as this 'free for view';

      http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1011/1011.2493v2.pdf

      Your estimate of 'a factor of 10' is a long way out. Some estimates do claim there is that much, but not most where solidly based on all the evidence (not just gravitational).

      Your assessment of orbital velocities is also a bit inaccurate. You didn't seem to understand the term 'virial radius'. If you look at a graph of the curve you'll find 'flats' but with pronounced steps, in areas of higher ion density. (I've found a cause and effect link - equivalent to Unruh effect propagation).

      Intricsic rotation is space is also key, as the link I also gave. With respect you will remain perplexed if you don't read them.

      I did say Feng extended the work (from galaxies to clusters). I can only give so much tome or MNRAS ref's so you'll have to Google arxiv yourself, or trust the work I cite above, not cherry pick.

      Lastly Mario; Look at M87 or Centaurus A (good shot in my cited paper) and you'll find perpendicular outflows can certainly be very substantial, but I agree, the AGN is less well developed on open spirals, building through closed spirals to discs and SO's.

      Your assumption about 'ions' is also wrong. The whole point of free electrons is that, as I mentioned, they are 'self focussing' (a well known quality of plasma) with a refractive index of 1 or even slightly lower!! The therefore DO absorb light and re-emit ('atomic scattering') but that does not mean 'scatter' in other directions as it does for molecular gas!

      A proof is in the ionosphere, dense with ions but completely invisible, except to the kinetic effects due to orbital co-motion through baryonic space (stellar aberration).

      Please do respond in detail on any points, but it's helpful if you do your own reading and research first. The errors are only due to lack of this.

      Peter

      Peter,

      Please find both in the title and throughout the referenced Ganda et al research that they report "two-dimensional" "stellar and gas kinematics" within galactic bulges.

      I don't find any mention of stars being expelled through the relativistic jets of AGN.

      I'm certainly not the 'expert' here, but I don't think the misunderstanding is mine - I won't take up any more of your valuable time here.

      Jim

      • [deleted]

      Hello Peter,

      Sorry, you are completely wrong. The bulge is spherical and as it is a two-dimensional analysis, of course, it refers to the velocity field in the plane of the disk (extension of it inside the bulge). Otherwise it would be three-diemsnsional. This is clear in Fig. 2 and in the other figures of individual galaxies.

      On the caption of Fig. 6 you find "The plots present galaxy by galaxy the radial profile of stellar velocity dispersion (in km/s), ...

      On Section 6.1, p.8, on the 13th line you find "...; the third and fourth rows contain respectively the Hbeta and [OIII] flux..."

      Mario

      • [deleted]

      Hi Jim,

      Yes, you are right. Take a look at my response to Peter.

      Mario

      Hi Mario,

      Thanks so very much - your congruent interpretation is most reassuring to me, as a lay analyst!

      Jim