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  • Post #75

Vladimir

"Do we both agree then that the photon is a a wave of particles? Gluons?"

Yes, how I view it is that it is the wave propagated from the photon particle passing bosonic particles, (higgs boson, w boson, z bosons, gluons bosons and maybe the axions bosons) in the higgs field that I have been referring to as the aether.

"Aristotle getting the Nobel? Hmm perhaps for some of his ideas, but imagine the embarrassment when all his other discounted ideas (rate of fall depending on weight of object, sight is caused by ocular rays emitted by the eyes, the four elements, etc etc) come to light!"

I was just attempting a little humor, however everybody who got the Nobel prize at one time in their history will be found to be fallible, imagine what people are going to say about the standard model, relativity, and what we wrote here 2,400 years from now.

Ron

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    • Post #76

    Vladimir

    Oh by the way your particle illustration on your essay is similar to what I was talking about.

    Thanks

    Ron

    Ron

    Your photon picture is a bit different than mine, but maybe because we do not completely understand each other's ideas.

    About Aristotle's Nobel there is nothing wrong with a bit of humor and while you are at it give one to Al-Hasan Ibn Al-Haytham (Hazen) the poor fellow is mostly ignored when the discovery of the scientific method is discussed, even though his work in optics had all of its hallmarks.

    And yes physics will be unrecognizable perhaps in a few decades from now! Here is a predicted consequence if the particle picture in my essay and theory is right (a wave field surrounding locked elements with rotational energy: In a double slit experiment a particle larger than either of the two slits will push its own field through the slits and they interfere even though the particle itself cannot pass through. See attached graphic for a description of the proposed experiment.

    VladimirAttachment #1: 1_Particledoubleslit_.jpeg

      Dear John

      Apologies for the late response I just your messages tucked away in the thread.

      Instead of the sort of arm-waving physics to describe our almost identical notions of how light spreads out as a wave, but is absorbed gradually, I can now point you to superlative experimental and theoretical analysis of this effect. In my essay I mentioned Eric Reiter's work on what he calls the anti-photon. You can now read his own fqxi essay on this forum.

      I belatedly started reading Wolfram's New Kind of Science and find he has an interesting take on such concepts as complexity and chaoes.

      Vladimir

      Hi Tom

      Thanks for your clarifications. I will have to re-read your post and think about these things some more. I may not have expressed myself very well, and the issues are complicated enough without the misunderstanding of what I or you mean by 'observer', measurement, and such terms. I simply meant there is no need to have GR account for light-cones at each point in the universe. A local light cone implies an accounting of what an observer at that point could or could not 'see'.

      Yes, its great to have a "License to THIMK" (sic) to use the 1950's gag.

      Vladimir

      5 days later

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      • Post #80

      Hi Vladimir,

      Thank you for your kind comments on my essay. I liked your essay and think that your building analogy very nicely captures an uncomfortable truth.

      In response to your comments on my essay and your BU theory, you are indeed correct that the compactified dimensions of Kaluza-Klein style theories (KKT) give a basis for cellular automata models (CA) such as your BU theory. To account for all the particles and particle forces the minimum number of such extra dimensions is 7 - this is a general conclusion in physics and not specific to my work - but the simple case of 1 extra dimension gives the picture in 1 spatial dimension of a tube like a hosepipe. The character of KKT is such that physical measurement of the length of the tube - the spatial dimension - is effectively in terms of the cross-section, which has the effect of dividing the length into discrete units that can be modelled in terms of the cells of a CA model. In terms of a previous essay question: is reality analogue or digital? the answer in KKT seems to be both as the analogue spatial dimension is measured in discrete units. However, the intrinsic error of measurement using a fixed measuring stick is ½ the length of the stick - I show that this effect alone can give the Heisenberg uncertainty relation. In terms of cells in a CA, imagine two touching cells and then place a third cell on top them centred on the point at which they touch; this is effectively two neighbouring cells overlapping each other by half. This would model the measurement error limit to the digitising of space to a CA model. Of course in a CA model with non-overlapping cells such as yours this should be modellable by a suitable choice of update rules between the cells.

      In my Kaluza-Klein theory - S10 unified field theory (STUFT) - the particles arise as topological defects, which in a digitised CA model would appear in a form similar to the multi-cell model of a particle you depict in Fig 16 of your paper. The issues for a CA model like yours are finding the right geometry for the cells in combination with the possible states of the cells, and then finding the correct update rules to model the physics. For the above reasons, I would expect such a CA model for a KKT like mine to exist in some form. I would then expect my proof that Gödel's incompleteness is the underlying reason for Quantum Theory to apply to such a CA model: I predict that the CA model would support universal computation and display computational irreducibility (the form Gödel's incompleteness takes in CA models).

      Best wishes

      Michael

      Hi Michael

      Thanks for your kind comments about the fqxi essay. You correctly evaluate my BU model as a species of cellular automata (CA). I sometimes think of it as a sort of self-operating 3D abacus inasmuch as self-assembly creates a lattice structure. In the original CA the only 'action' involved is a two-state on-off for each cell. You mentioned that 7 dimensions are required by physics - I would be grateful for an online reference about this to study.

      In my Beautiful Universe (BU) nodes there are the following degrees of freedom: 1-rate of rotation or spin of a node in units of (h). 2- two degrees of freedom in the orientation of a cell in spherical coordinates. I wonder how these would count in terms of 'dimensions'. I also feel that the usual 3 spatial and one time dimension are emergent from the node interactions themselves. You have diagnosed exactly what is needed in my theory: As to geometry I think a face-centered-cubic (FCC) lattice is a reasonable starting point ( adopted over the other Kepler packing, following N. Cook, see below). The update rules still need to be to be quantified. Although it is not exactly a BU 'particle' treating three nodes as bar magnets interacting classically lead to a model one aspect of the Strong Force so the rule required may be similar in BU.

      Yes The Uncertainty relations in CA emerge exactly are as you stated them. In the case of the two overlapping cells you describe it will be just like the Airy diffraction limit! I strongly feel that orderly diffraction (ie diffusion) in a lattice is the cause of both uncertainty and probability in QM. In Fig. 29 of (BU) you can see how this is illustrated in 2D (the case you describe) and also in a 3D lattice. The trouble of considering KK in BU is that it is a sort of an add-on to Special Relativity's 4-D spacetime. In BU I totally ignore SR as a starting point and think that discrete Lorentz transformations in an absolute universe are enough to describe relativity in the lattice.

      By the way Fig. 16 of BU which you referred to is from my friend Norman Cook's work. I told him about the fqxi contest and he has contributed a very thorough explanation of his FCC-based nuclear structure theory. More support for our sort of approach to physics, so please encourage his work.

      I will have to re-read your essay and think about the interesting points you raised including your fascinating conclusion that Gödel's theorem has applications in basic physics!

      With best wishes,

      Vladimir

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        • Post #82

        Hi Vladimir

        In response to our different pictures of how light travels through an aether, higgs field. I use a field of particles made of bosons, of which the higgs particle is also made of to demonstrate my aether. In other words in my belief the higgs field should also explain the duality of light. But where I deviate from the current understanding of the Higgs field is that like heavier gas particles in our atmosphere, the higgs bosons are the closest to matter where the farther away from matter you get the lighter the bosonic field that is generated. In other words that is why we can see throughout the universe because most of the bosonic field in interstellar and intergalactic space is made of mass-less gluons.

        Oh by the way that is an interesting way to explain the double slit experiment. I have a different view of how that would work in my view it all depends on a bosonic condensate. That's why if you try to observe it the effect goes away like it would in a BEC, by observing it we are disrupting it informational lines of communications.

        Sorry for the late response I was out of town for a while, good luck on your essay

        Ron

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        • Post #83

        Hi Vladimir

        The condition on a minimum of 7 extra dimensions can be thought of as coming from the relationship between continuous symmetries and conserved charges. The symmetry of the 3 spatial dimensions and time is associated with conservation of 3 momentums and energy. In representations of special relativity the associated conserved 'charges' are spins. For particles, there are 3 conserved colour charges (red, green, blue), 3 conserved isospin charges (associated with the W,W- and Z bosons) and 1 conserved electric charge, and so the minimum number of extra dimensions is 7. This condition arises for realistic Kaluza-Klein theories and also underlies the condition of 11 dimensions for fermionic string theories. Although in principle there could be more, it seems that special mathematical conditions come into play for 7 closed dimensions because of the special status of the sphere S7 being the closed space of the octonions.

        I would view the CA lattice as being discretised cells of the 'fabric of space' in General Relativity where the compactified dimensions of a KK theory are the underlying physical reason for the cells. From this perspective the add-on character of the extra dimensions is an essential feature and not a trouble at all. Of course, discrete Lorentz transformations would then need to be derived for the lattice structure. It seems to me that this fits your intention of BU, where the discretised lattice is a form of background space for physics, although I would be wary of using a phrase like 'absolute universe' without caveats.

        Best wishes

        Michael

        Dear Michael,

        Thank you for answering my question regarding the 7 dimensions. I know that the Standard Model fits the experimental facts very nicely, but I need to study more to see how it 'works'. My understanding is that it is a de-facto set of rules and there is no simple geometrical structure that produces all these relationships between masses, charges and forces. My intuition and hope (!) is that an alternative to SM can emerge from simple building block CA KK type configurations to build such a structure.

        Yes it is as you describe it- in BU the fabric of space is made of discretized cells that self-assemble in different configurations. I thought about it a lot and discretized Lorentz transformations should work there. For example if the maximum velocity cell-to cell is (c), matter configurations in the lattice can only travel at that speed. And if an atom emits light while traveling at (c) the light will only travel at (c). Doppler effects account for LT as lesser speeds. Force as forward momentum added to a body will 'compress it' even before it starts moving, as per SR length contraction (see Fig. 26 of Beautiful Universe - also attached here). You are right 'absolute' is too encompassing a word and it will have to be explained carefully.

        Best Wishes

        VladimirAttachment #1: BUFIG26.jpg

        Hi Ron

        Thanks for your explanation about the your bosonic field. No need too apologize for the late response - in fact I saw your response only yesterday.

        If I follow your explanation this thinning out away from matter is like the gravitational field - or is perhaps the gravitational field itself? What happens when matter moves in such a field- it sounds like aether-dragging. You may be right but I always hope that Nature works more simply!

        I am a bit wary about interpreting quantum effects as information - something physical is going on in those nether-scale worlds and may need a physical explanation...

        Best wishes

        Vladimir

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        • Post #86

        Vladimir

        On the issue of relationships between coupling constants and masses, because my Kaluza-Klein theory (STUFT) unifies physics in a pure geometric theory it leads to closed geometric formula for the Weinberg angle (eqn 4), the Higgs field coupling (eqn 27), Planck's constant (eqn 31), and the charges (eqns34-36). But I have no corresponding formula for the fermion masses, and in my theory they are not actually calculable.

        It occurred to me that the particle configuration you are looking for in a CA model need not be a static configuration, but a self-consistent dynamic state that cycles between a number of configurations. For a discrete version of the sort of KKT I have considered I would suggest that the particle configuration should be cyclical, such that its motion could have an associated wave-like property. Finding such a CA version of particle and wave would be an interesting result.

        Michael

        Thank you Michael

        Particle physics is the one undeveloped aspect of my BU model, and I will have to do a lot of catching up! You and others like Norman Cook (see his fqxi paper please - both our models 'exist' in a face-centered-cubic lattice) have gone far to explain things geometrically, and I am sure one day the remaining questions will be resolved in 'our' way.

        I agree completely with what you said "the particle configuration should be cyclical, such that its motion could have an associated wave-like property. Finding such a CA version of particle and wave would be an interesting result.":

        In my BU model the particle nodes rotate in unison, creating a rotating vortex field that is replicated in the surrounding nodes as its gravitational field-cum-quantum wave-field with its de-Broglie wavelength...standing gravitational waves no less. Please see Fig. 11 of my Beautiful Universe theory, also attached. In fact this can be extended in a sort of 3D Gauss's Theorem of a lattice: the spin on any closed surface equals the resultant spin enclosed by the totality of lattice nodes within the enclosed volume. Hope I got my maths right! This concept is interesting because it shows the *reason* for the Holographic Principle: the internal spin of nodes making up particles in a black hole end up activating a resultant of spin at the surface.

        VladimirAttachment #1: BUFIG11.jpg

        6 days later

        Hello Vladimir,

        I thank you for your comments on my essay forum page, and I am following up by attaching a photo of Anton Zeilinger in front of a book page talking about Einstein's letter expressing doubt the corpuscular theory of light. I also include a draft of a brief paper about a conceptual model of decoherence, because this material came up over there.

        I want to affirm or agree with several of Michael Goodband's comments above. I began looking into CA models incorporating some of Michael's insights after a conversation with Gerard 't Hooft on the difficulties with achieving Lorentz invariance with CA based Quantum gravity theories, and the idea that the octonions (or octonionic space) might provide the degrees of freedom to account for observed symmetries.

        I'll continue in another comment below, in a bit.

        Regards,

        JonathanAttachment #1: 3_DecoherenceReviewDraft.pdfAttachment #2: 2_AntonQuote.jpg

        Dear Jonathan,

        Thank you for your message and interesting attachments. Do you have a reference for Einstein's letter expressing doubts about corpuscles?

        I have read your attached pdf on decoherence. Also your reported comment by Gerard 't Hooft on quantum gravity in CA. If you will be kind enough to forgive my simplistic assumptions and ideas about these concepts, there is one point that may have been largely overlooked since it was raised some 200 years ago (actually 2500 years, since Democratis's time).

        Could it be that at the smallest level there is absolutely no distinction between waves, solid matter, radiation or dark energy etc? I believe that this artificial dichotomy based on everyday perceptions, between particles and waves, is at the heart of a great deal of the foundational problems facing a theory of everything. For example you speak of an ocean vs. a boat, of a person perceiving the ocean differently from land or sea etc. In a CA lattice, particularly in my Beautiful Universe Theory (BU) model, it is all made of the same stuff! Fresnel early on had the right idea of "matter permeable to ether"- and vice verse I might add! - and I think Hertz and others were seeking out a wholly electric ether where Lorentz transformations would account for relativity. Enter Einstein and his photon and constant (c) which inserted a spanner firmly in the these promising works, forcing physics to proceed on his own new tack. And now it is not working!!

        With regard to Michael Goodband's comments, and octonions, again please forgive my going into matters I know little of, but is it not possible that 1) The math is asked to cover a physical situation that is far more complicated than it is in Nature? 2) That the math reflects the degrees of freedom in the node of a certain type of CA - I am thinking of my (BU) where each and every node can rotate in any spherical angle, rotate around its own axis, and has polarity, i.e. much as the Bloch sphere of QM - as per attached figure (from my last year Digital or Analog fqxi essay)?

        Again thank you for your learned response.

        VladimirAttachment #1: FIG5.jpg

          Hi Vladimir

          I like your Beautiful Universe. It is like a Bohr model of space. I think you might be interested in quaternions, which are mathematical extensions of complex numbers. They are associated with spin in quantum mechanics.

          A quaternion can be thought of as four numbers, any one of which may be taken as a reference for the other three. This conceptual link between the numbers leads to a picture of the quaternion as a tetrahedron.

          Your face-centered cube model first struck me as odd since I might have expected simple hexagonal shapes, or the occupation of alternate nodes of a regular grid. The first possibility arose mainly from other investigations, and the second possibility was based on the three dimensional model of a quaternion I had been considering which places the tetrahedron representing the quaternion on four corners of a cube.

          But then on reflection it became clear that the face-centered cube has alternate nodes occupied, and so could very well be related to a 3D structure for a model quaternion. In the attached diagram, the quaternion is shown in a 1/8 segment of a face-centered cube, ie 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 of a FCC.

          Mathematically these cubes are assumed to be cyclic like circles or toruses, but that could also correspond to a grid of identical cubes in which case nodes could be placed on other cubes leading to different geometrical configurations of a quaternion, including the condition where the nodes are in the same plane in which case the quaternion bounds no volume, only area.

          If you are interested, download John Baez The Octonions to see where I get this idea, which I readily admit could invite criticism as a gross misinterpretation of the mathematics as physics. First the octonions: they are an extension of the quaternions consisting of eight numbers, double again the size of a quaternion. As Baez puts it, "the octonions are the crazy old uncle nobody lets out of the attic".

          Ignore the math. There are three diagrams on page 7. At the top is a circle with three nodes labeled i, j, k. These nodes correspond to three numbers of a quaternion with the reference number being hidden.

          The second diagram on the page shows a triangular transformation table for the octonion (again not showing the reference number) with an inscribed circle with three nodes e1, e2, e4 on its circumference. I take these to refer to the nodes i, j, k above.

          The third diagram on the page shows a mapping of the eight numbers in an octonion onto the eight corners of a cube. The reference number is now included and labeled with the number '1'. Notice that the reference number and e1, e2, and e4 connect diagonally across the faces of the cube, and occupy alternating nodes. I think that this could be a picture of a quaternion in space, but I doubt if that was intended.

          I would have overlooked this possibility without the diagrams. You have obviously realized the importance of graphics in your essay and website.

          Quaternions and octonions are the basis of modern mathematical physics and I would not be surprised to find them in your model.

          Best wishes and I hope your essay does well.

          ColinAttachment #1: quaternion3D.pdf

            Dear Colin

            Thank you for your kind and timely explanation of Octonions. In Jonathan Dickau's post of Aug. 21 just before yours he refered to octonions and in the last paragraph of my answer I asked a couple of questions about that.

            Thank you for John Baez' paper on octonions, and your explanation of the figures on page 7. I could not help observing that with the great respect I have for Baez's accomplishments us non-academic physicists were a bit scared of being branded by him as cranks when he was on a campaign to expunge our work from the world :) Luckily he did not even notice my papers!

            In his paper Baez refers to Wigner's 1930's interest in octonions. Coincidentally my friend Norman D. Cook reworked an idea of Wigner to build a nuclear structure model based on a Face Centered Cubic FCC . In fact I adopted the FCC in my Beautiful Universe model (over the triangular Kepler packing) thanks to Cook's example. I encouraged Cook to present his work in this fqxi contest. Please have a look at it and his book and simulation software on the same subject published by Springer.

            Its a small world, and with all these efforts I hope something good will jell in the world of fundamental physics.

            With thanks and best wishes,

            Vladimir

              Dear Vladimir

              Your remark about John Baez and cranks hit home. I had a dispute with John Baez over rejecting my first posting to sci.physics.research inquiring about supernova redshift data and got labeled as a crank in the process. He is the inventor of The Crackpot Index. From Wikipedia: "The method, proposed semi-seriously by mathematical physicist John Baez in 1992, computes an index by responses to a list of 36 questions..."

              Petty humiliation can be quite effective. It would be a decade before I posted again. Baez's behaviour was likely symptomatic of a more widespread phenomenon. It seems to me that the situation has gotten worse to the extent that it has become institutionalized, countered for example by VIXRA (thanks to Philip Gibbs) as a reaction.

              Here is a little story coincidentally about John Baez's doctoral supervisor. The late Irving Segal (1918-1998) developed a theory he called chronometric cosmology which called for redshift to vary with the square of the distance to account for curvature, instead of linearly as in Hubble's law. He noted that the data collected to support Hubble's law comprised a small part of the data available. Suspecting selection bias, he embarked on a program to analyze as much data as possible. What he found was that the larger data set clearly supported his model, not Hubble's law. This was found over a wide range of wavelengths and with the collaboration of various researchers in a series of papers. In spite of the data supporting his theory, physicists will tell you that supernova data imply accelerating expansion without even considering Segal. I am not optimistic about the future of physics when the critical work of an established and respected physicist is discounted.

              Colin

              Thanks Colin,

              Yes that's the one - the Crackpot Index! Its funny and makes sense because there *are* some strange ideas out there and I can imagine John was pestered by having to evaluate them.! But I could well imagine how discouraging it can be when successful mainstream physicists put down an idea and its author for no good reason. I had arXiv reject my Beautiful Universe theory paper probably because I have no university affiliation, but I am used to being out there on a limb with my ideas so I took it in stride. And thanks to Philip Gibbs and viXra my papers are online there now. And Philip 'answered' John Baez' Index by his marvelous blog column Crackpots Who Were Right . BTW Philip has participated in this year's fqxi contest and was recently quoted in the news for his knowledgeable comments about Higgs developments.

              All this pales next to some experiences with Physics Forums where rejections of new ideas can range from dismissive to hostile. One researcher told me he was so vehemently attacked by moderators on PF even now many years later he hesitated to promote his ideas even on fqxi, but I think I talked him out of it and he is now writing up a paper for the contest.

              Interesting and typical story about Irving Segal's redshift theory...

              Vladimir

                Hi Vladimir,

                On looking into the Segal story further, it appears there might have been sufficient reason to be suspicious of his rather complicated analysis of the data. Ned Wright's criticism points out some problems.

                Here is a link to Crackpots who were right which was broken. Nicely inspirational.

                Colin