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  • Post #123

Vladimir,

Your analysis of the constancy/inconstancy of the speed of light is insufficient. You wrote:

"Unfortunately by proposing that the speed of light (c) is constant, Einstein imposed a strange requirement on Nature: Space itself expands and contracts, and time dilates, as measured from a moving inertial frame. He made measurement absolute, i.e. (c) is constant (light being the 'tool' that measures distance and time), but the universe itself became relative - there is no absolute ether in which events occur. This is the exact opposite of what happens in the Lorentz transformations that inspired (SR), whereby the universe is absolute (a universal medium or ether exists) but it is measurement that is relative (clocks slow down as they move, not time itself, and measuring rods physically contract, not space itself, and (c) need not be fixed. In any case both in (SR) and in Lorentz' theory, the measured speed of light ends up being the same."

If, according to the ether theory that you defend, the speed of light "need not be fixed", just give an example showing how the speed of light varies.

Are time dilation and length contraction RECIPROCAL according to the ether theory that you defend? That is, does any observer see any other observer's clock running slow?

Pentcho Valev

Dear Pentcho Valev

Thank you for your critical response. You are quite right - my analysis is insufficient. Three factors contribute to that: 1- the format of the fqxi contest wanted us to ask foundational questions, and specifically discouraged 'shoehorning' our own 'pet theories' in the discussion; in other words not to give the answers! 2- the word-count limit did not allow a lengthy discussion. Most importantly 3- my conclusions are based on my 2005 Beautiful Universe Theory which is admittedly qualitative and needs mathematical development in many areas. Having said that I feel confident from thought experiments imagining how energy hops across the ether nodes, and how force on a body 'compresses' its length before it starts moving (see attached figure from the BU paper), that the equivalent of SR can be developed including reciprocal *measured* clock-time retardation, and *measured* length contraction. This becomes obvious if you think of time measured by a clock made up of a bouncing ray of light in a box whose length contracts along the way it travels.

The payoff for this way of thinking is in the great simplification of gravity, because it is not spacetime that warps so unrealistically, merely the ether medium has a density gradient, which slows down (c) as described in Q.4. As I mentioned Einstein himself later admitted that (c) has to slow down when curving in a gravity field. SR plays no role in such a situation because both the light and the star are in the same inertial frame. The required formulation of all this in (BU) should be based on discrete 'steps' between nodes, at a *maximum* speed of (c) in a vacuum free from masses and fields.

Any help translating these intuitions into more rigorous mathematical form would be welcome!

VladimirAttachment #1: 1_BUFIG26.jpg

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    • Post #125

    In Lorentz ether theory time dilation and length contraction are not reciprocal, Vladimir. This fact is usually ignored but still some authors do mention it:

    W.L. Craig, The Tenseless Theory of Time, p. 26: "Kroes, however, disputes Dieks' s claim in this regard. He charges that Dieks has overlooked the fact that in Einstein's theory these relativistic effects are RECIPROCAL. Lorentz's dynamical interpretations of the shortening of rods and of time dilation only make sense because they are not reciprocal."

    Pentcho Valev

    Thanks Pentcho you have gone into this matter more than I have and I need to study more, starting with reading your essay! Since in (BU) theory we are considering a new physical situation with new possibilities, perhaps a new understanding may evolve, rather than stick to what Einstein or Lorentz have presented in terms of the physical understanding of Nature of their era. They both differentiated between matter and the vacuum, while in BU matter is made of the same stuff as the ether.

    In BU theory there is no time dimension, so the concept of speed of light itself becomes academic. This may seem less drastic than it seems: In a timeless universe absolute simultaneity is automatically established everywhere, but relativistic effects will be measured locally from inertial frames. BTW what does the experimental evidence have to say about whether time dilation and length contraction are reciprocal or not?

    Vladimir

      Dear Vladimir,

      What a great essay! When I read the sentence "Clever mathematics allows defining the same phenomena in different ways: in geometry a circle is realistically defined by its center and radius, but a relatively complicated algebraic definition is also possible - the latter however gives no idea of its shape." I said, there's a man after my own heart, an art-science creator unbound by a single category. It's hard not to think of the successful math that proved for eighteen-hundred years the Sun circled the Earth.

      An artist friend, Harry Holtzman, long gone, used to say that, "Hardening of the categories leads to art disease." Isn't something like this true also of science? I remember a Robert Oppenheimer interview in which he emphasized the need to create or maintain bridges between disciplines, the most likely fertile ground for making new discoveries.

      My argument is against the bullying long ago by the Copenhagen powers that excluded forever students with strong visual sensibilities and talent from participating in the world of quantum physics. Since 1930 people have been scared to death even to hint that the atom might possibly be a real and logical device. Sorry, Vladimir, but I've set off my personal tick, that hidden spring that gets me started the moment I think atom.

      I admire greatly your image of science as a dwelling with many separate rooms disconnected from one another. Looking at your brilliant illustrations it occurred to me that one day when you've mulled over the architectural possibilities you might find yourself sketching an improved architecture, a co-op to house the different disciplines but with connecting rooms.

      With great admiration and best wishes,

      Ken Snelson

      Ken

      I treasure the kudos from you, the inventor of tensegrity and the creator of the stunning world-famous sculptures gracing so many museums and plazas from Baltimore to Tokyo. In physics I was thrilled to discover your rotating circular magnets that move in sync - a beautiful illustration of how I think nodes making up matter move in my Beautiful Universe theory, as I credited you in my 2005 paper. I still need to study in depth your models of de Broglie atomic waves. But as Paul Dirac felt concerning theories in physics - on account of its beauty alone it must be true!

      Unlike you I have gone into so many directions at once and many of my ideas or project are left unfinished. Not out of laziness or lack of opportunity, but because in the same way you describe the entrenched positions of the Copenhagen people, most fields are dominated by successful 'experts' who do not like upstarts daring to present new ideas that challenge old ones. So the project is left dangling! Slowly however things are changing.

      You mentioned Dr. Oppenheimer - he pioneered the Exploratorium science museum in California. Another fqxi essayist Eric Reiter knows -(he exhibited his Sun Harp there) - Eric is himself a brave pioneer against entrenched ideas and experimentally disproved the point photon idea.

      Viva American inventiveness, and creativity everywhere, with free minds coupled with hard work and faith in one's own ideas, taking them where they might!

      Thank you again for your visit and generous encouragement.

      Vladimir

      Vladimir,

      Although your analysis of the constancy/inconstancy of the speed of light is insufficient, you have gone far enough towards the truth so you get maximum rating from me.

      Note that my essay is no longer in the contest so there is no bargaining in my message.

      Pentcho Valev

      Dear Vladimir,

      In the framework of the Theory of Infinite Nesting of Matter (my essay) I answer your question in such way: 1). The world consist of numerous objects (particles, stars, galaxies and so on). The matter of every objects consist of particles of low levels of matter. The physical state of matter of different objects is different. But it is possible to find coefficients of similarity between similar objects at different levels of matter and with them predict properties of objects. The wave quanta may be represented as changes of density of fluxes of gravitons which consist of neutrino, photons and charged particles similar to cosmic rays (all of it was born at low levels of matter by particles much more less then nucleons). Space is mathematical construction and realized only throw real particle and material reference frame. Flexibility of space is the same as flexibility of all reference frames - it is no more then mathematical trick. 3). How we can understand that speed of light c is constant in all inertial systems? This question is well seen in Extended special theory of relativity . It is shown that constancy of speed of light in all inertial systems may be a consequence of constancy of speed of light in isotropic reference frame where the speed is the same in all direction and may be connected with isotropy of fluxes of gravitons. Another reason is procedure of space-time measurement in special relativity which uses two-way propagation of waves. With such procedure averaging of speed of light take place giving the value of c. But real speed in a direction may be not c. See Metric theory of relativity. Ether consist of fluxes of gravitons. 4). Gravitation change only paths of photons and their energy, not the spacetime itself. Since space-time measurements use electromagnetic waves then the metric of space-time is changed in the field of gravity in relation to the Minkowski metric. So some one thinks that spacetime is warped. 5). The model of photons is in paper Cosmic Red Shift, Microwave Background, and New Particles.. The photons consist of numerous charged tiny particles, rotating around axis of motion. The model of electron is in the book: The physical theories and infinite nesting of matter.. 7). There is the model of quarks and in the model quarks are quasiparticles not real particles.

      Sergey Fedosin

        Vladimir,

        Great discussion. I for one think that the vacuum of space can change or be changed to break the constancy of light speed.

        For this contest, I decided to go through and comment on essays of interest and see what responses I got to my own essay. There are over 250 entries, so I narrowed down my evaluations. For only those who responded, I decided to reread and provide my evaluations before time expired, not making it a popularity contest but keeping in mind that I entered for an exchange of interesting ideas, whether I agree or not. Some concepts are superior and more persuasively supported.

        I think yours comes under that guideline.

        Jim

        Hi Jim

        Thanks for your message - the constancy of the speed of light is applicable only in cases where *measurements* are involved from one inertial frame to another. But because Einstein enshrined it into an absolute postulate in SR the concept played havoc when applied without any necessity to do so to describe gravity . SR need not apply in cases 'out there' with no observer involved, for example in the bending of light in a gravitational field.

        Thanks for your kind words about my essay. In general I do not think the peer-evaluation of the contest system is fair or a good way to select the best ones. For example Eric Reiter's fqxi essay is the only one with experimental groundbreaking evidence that can really make a difference. But he chose to write it too technically and it seems to be languishing in the ratings. Please check it out and rate it. I have read and rated som 80 essays (I cannot believe I did that!) including yours. Good luck.

        Vladimir

        Dear Sergey

        Thank you so much for your detailed explanation.I have so much to learn, and am learning everyday from interesting thinkers like you - I read about 80 fqxi essays. The papers you mentioned cover subjects of great importance, but in order to comment on them I have to read them - and I hope to do so in the near future as time (and energy - I am 70 years old!) permits.

        In general I do not subscribe to the concept of photon particles, nor to gravitons. In my Beautiful Universe theory I see gravity as the effect of twisting of ether dipole nodes ...almost a topological rather than a particle explanation. I see you have read Eric Reiter's essay - where he experimentally proved that the photon is not a particle. This is an important development that will necessiate the revision of a lot of conceptual ideas.

        I wish you the best

        Vladimir

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        • Post #134

        The problem with the speed of light is existential, not just scientific, Vladimir. If the speed of light does depend on the speed of the light source, that is, if Einstein's 1905 light postulate is false, an unavoidable conclusion is that not only Einstein's relativity but modern physics as a whole has been long dead. Einstein hinted at this in 1954 but hid the real problem behind a euphemism:

        Albert Einstein (1954): "I consider it entirely possible that physics cannot be based upon the field concept, that is on continuous structures. Then nothing will remain of my whole castle in the air, including the theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of contemporary physics."

        Joao Magueijo is more explicit:

        Joao Magueijo: "In sharp contrast, the constancy of the speed of light has remain sacred, and the term "heresy" is occasionally used in relation to "varying speed of light theories". The reason is clear: the constancy of c, unlike the constancy of G or e, is the pillar of special relativity and thus of modern physics. Varying c theories are expected to cause much more structural damage to physics formalism than other varying constant theories."

        Pentcho Valev

        Dear Vladimir,

        I've read your very interesting paper and taken a peek at your website. I have a great appreciation of the artistic way you have expressed yourself, both verbally and pictorially. Your diagrams really are beautiful. I very much agree that the spirit of investigation and specifics you define in the title of your essay is just what is needed for the advancement of Physics today. I haven't had prior communications with members of FQXi so perhaps I'm a little behind the ball in knowing what each essay stands for besides what is actually presented within it.

        I'd like to ask if you find in the contents of this essay a very real and very rigorous realization of the command "Reverse Engineer Relativity"? The mathematics may be a bit heavy in places so I wouldn't expect many to be able to follow every item, except for plasma physicists who routinely deal with the constitutive relations. But there is possibly enough verbal description to understand what is taking place there.

        With best wishes,

        Steve

          Dear Tamari,

          Thank you for an interesting essay. You are one of the few in this contest who has discussed a number of different assumptions and this reflect your broad worldwide vision of physics.

          We agree in many more forms that I can write here. For instance, you quote Einstein saying that the speed of light has to "vary with position" when light curves in a gravitational field. We obtain the same conclusion from the field theoretic approach to gravity presented in my Essay. The velocity that we obtain (in the weak field limit) is

          [math]v = c - \frac{2GM}{cr}[/math]

          where M is the mass of the star (e.g. Sun) and r the distance. The above expression gives the observed light bending due to the gravitational field. In my essay and in the cited references I also show how the geometric interpretation of gravity is only valid as approximation, in agreement with comments you made in your Q4.

          We also agree on the artificial character of the particle-wave duality. I have presented in my FQXi forum (1356) a new formulation/interpretation of QM that avoids the usual paradoxes and puzzles and demonstrates that Einstein was right in his ensemble interpretation of QM, whereas Bohr was not in their individual/Copenhagen interpretation. I loved your intelligent use of the term "zombie cats" for referring to the Schrödinger cat paradox. In future, I will use your term "zombie cats" when discussing about this paradox.

          Regards

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            • Post #137

            So the speed of light decreases as the light leaves the gravitational field of the star. If this light then comes here on earth, is its speed still decreased? Is the gravitational redshift we measure evidence for this decreased speed?

            Pentcho Valev

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            • Post #138

            If the speed of light varies with the gravitational potential, as Vladimir and Juan claim, does it vary with the speed of the observer in gravitation-free space? The answer is "yes":

            "Doppler Shift. As long as the velocity of the observer, v, is much smaller than the speed of light, c, (for the case of sound waves much smaller than the speed of sound) then the expression that we derived is a very good approximation. Taking into account v may be in the opposite direction: f'=f(1±v/c). At this point you might ask why the shift in direction from the discussion of the equivalence principle. Soon, as we shall see, we can put this together with the equivalence principle to derive the gravitational redshift of light! In 1960 Pound and Rebka and later, 1965, with an improved version Pound and Snider measured the gravitational redshift of light using the Harvard tower, h=22.6m. From the equivalence principle, at the instant the light is emitted from the transmitter, only a freely falling observer will measure the same value of f that was emitted by the transmitter. But the stationary receiver is not free falling. During the time it takes light to travel to the top of the tower, t=h/c, the receiver is traveling at a velocity, v=gt, away from a free falling receiver. Hence the measured frequency is: f'=f(1-v/c)=f(1-gh/c^2)."

            The stationary observer measures the speed of light to be c'=c(1-gh/c^2)=c-v. The equivalence principle converts the stationary observer into an observer "traveling at a velocity, v=gt, away from a free falling receiver". This observer also measures the speed of light to be c'=c-v.

            Pentcho Valev

            Yes, when light comes here on earth its speed is still decreasing per above expression.

            No, the gravitational redshift is not given by the decreased speed. Note that during its travel from the source to the detector, the photon's kinetic energy varies so as to ensure conservation of energy. When the photon gets absorbed by the detector it disappears completely, so its total energy gets transferred to the detector rather than the kinetic energy alone. The photon's total energy (and its frequency) remains constant during its travel, so the attraction of photons to massive bodies does not play any role in the gravitational red shift. The true origin of the red shift is the variation of energy levels in the source and/or in the detector if they are placed in the gravitational field.

            Moreover, the above result is obtained from the Hamiltonian for a photon in a gravitational field. For a massive body (e.g. atom) in a gravitational field the Hamiltonian is, in a first approximation,

            [math]H = H_0 \left( 1 - \frac{GM}{rc^2}\right)[/math]

            Which gives the well-tested red-shift formula

            [math]\frac{\Delta E}{\Delta E_0 } = 1 - \frac{GM}{rc^2}[/math]

            Dear Juan Ramón and Pentcho

            Thank you for your stimulating messages. I am glad that Juan , with his sophisticated mathematical background, seems to have found many agreements with my statements, even though they are based on the mostly qualitative Beautiful Universe Theory model and earlier studies refred to therein. I have read Juan's "General relativity as geometrical approximation to a field theory of gravity"(viXra:1203.0042) and see that like a skilled matador he has tackled the General Relativity bull with skill and panache. I wish I understood the mathematical details, but from my own analysis, GR became vastly complicated because it was formulated using the language of Special Relativity SR. The simple and elegant equivalence principle (gravity = acceleration) had to carry the excessive baggage of SR with its unphysical and unrealistic postulate that c is constant. That twisted the whole universe into a complicated and unphysical geometrical pattern. In my theory gravitational potential is due to local energy gradient in the nodes making up the universal medium (the quantized ether).

            To answer Pentcho's concerns, I must explain the difference between the presuppositions and hence mathematical language of SR and GR on the one hand, and my BU on the other. In SR and GR time, velocity, distance are all continuous functions, but they obey a strange and abstract rule: c is constant. These starting points lead to the Lorentz transformations and the sort of calculations Pentcho derived above.

            In BU the starting points are that there is a discrete absolute background space, like points on the corners of a fixed graph. Absolute also refers to time - there is complete simultanity in this world. The maximum speed momentum can travel between nodes is c, but when the nodes are denser, they momentum travels at a slower rate. From the above starting points I have concluded through much thought-experimentation that all the experimental results of SR (clocks slowing down as length contracts, and GR ( clocks slowing down and light bending near massive objects etc.) can be derived from this BU model.

            I know that such a verbal and arguments (plus visual illustrations) is not enough. When I finalized the BU model in 2005 I was hoping, and am still hoping, that some more skilful mathematician will describe this world in a rigorous mathematical description.

            Take the matter of velocity addition. In a continuous medium 4+5 =9. But imagine a world where the maximum allowed number is 9 where 7+5= 9 ! What kind of math do I need for this? Perhaps an easier way to understand this 'maximum velocity' rule is to imagine a long line of soccer fans making a 'cheering' wave one person lifts his or her hands when the one before does so. Imagine the healthiest people can transmit the wave at c, but some older, less healthy people take time to transmit the wave at less than c...

            And thanks Juan - no more zombie cats (and no more point photons please - read Eric Reiter's essay!) in the brave new world of physics!

            Vladimir

              Dear Stephen

              Thank you very much for your generous comments - it is a pleasure to find that what amounts to my daydreaming and doodling over the years has found confirmation in many quarters.

              I enjoyed perusing your essay and got enough out of a first reading to understand and approve of what you have done. Correct me if I am wrong, but you have started out with the Maxwell equations and by proposing a velocity=energy equivalence you have derived or explained the lambda factor of Special Relativity. Bravo! This is exactly in line with the starting assumptions of energy transport in my Beautiful Universe Theory upon which I have based my essay. As momentum is transmitted from the node stepping stones of the universal ether in this theory, it does so at a maximum velocity of (c) but when the nodes themselves rotate at higher energy the velocity is less.

              The payoff in this approach is when the description of GR is reduced to a density field with variable index of optical refraction. BTW can slowing down of c in a gravitational field be expressed by a change of the ratio of the permittivity and permeability in Maxwell's equations?? Further clarification of my other ideas is in my response to the discussion below with Juan and Pentcho.

              fqxi is mostly a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) world - there is some private communication as people get to know each other year after year - this is my second contest I entered. On the site itself there are no hidden variables, except the kindness and hard work of the administrators like Brendan Foster, but I think the rating system is not working to lead to the best essays.

              I wish you success

              Vladimir

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              • Post #142

              Dear Vladimir

              You make me realize I should have paid more attention to Young and Eddington. I do so elsewhere http://iopscience.iop.org/0143-0807/30/4/014 but not in relation to Riemann. Thanks for making me think more deeply about the issues.

              Your essay was sometime out of league but always fascinating, original and creative. Hope more thinkers adopt your style. Beauty is not a scientific add-on but a necessary requirement.