• [deleted]

  • Post #55

Peter

Since my last post, in researching material for a paper I am writing, I read a paper that sheds more light on the assumption issues. The author, J.H. Field, who has a cern.ch email address, used the term hypothesis and hypotheses, vice assumption(s), to describe what is influencing scientific thought. The paper was published in Physica Scripta - PHYS SCR , vol. 74, no. 6, pp. 702-717, 2006 DOI: 10.1088/0031-8949/74/6/018 , plus it is on arXiv.

Classic electrodynamics

At the end of section 6, the author states, "Regrettably science is, at the time of this writing, riddled by many 'hypotheses' of the type referred to in the first of the above quotations. One such hypothesis, that has persisted through much of the 19th century and all of the 20th is that: 'No physical influence can propagate faster than the speed of light'. This is contradicted by the arguments given above and, as discussed in the following section, also by the results of some recent experiments."

I note he used one of the several superluminal references I have cited in my new paper.

I found the term "virtual photon" and its characteristics interesting. It seems the "virtual photon" is a one-legged version of the traditional two-legged EM photon that has both an electric and magnetic field. Field didn't hesitate to use the term "instantaneous" numerous times in his paper. His paper passed peer review.

The paper I am preparing describes the mechanism that results in an "instantaneous" influence, and surprisingly, it uses the principles behind the virtual photon, which I had never heard of before.

Peter

There are indeed, but isn't the starting point to understand what the man himself said SR was? Indeed, the confusion between 1905 & SR is the source of the problem really. SR, as defined by Einstein is simple. In fact it cannot be wrong, or indeed prove anything, because the circumstance in which it occurs is so conditioned.

Paul

Peter

"I agree entirely about "one REAL unit of everything" particularly time. Paul seemed to miss the below too"

I missed this post. This is not how timing works. Timing is an extrinsic assessment of the rate of change between realities. So, one takes any timing device (which could be any change sequence, but it is best to have a good one, snail movement just doesn't cut it!) and counts and compares sheer number of changes irrespective of type. Which includes, obviously, a start and a finish. Therefore, as at any given point in time (start and finish), A was at spatial point X, B was at spatial point Y, or whatever is being timed. Whilst D occurred (ie number of changes in any given attribute of A), E occurred (ie number of changes in any given attribute in B). The concept of 'whilst' need not be concurrent, when one has a timing device, because that is providing a reference (ie in quartz timing devices, crystal oscillation), so the comparison can be effected even if it does not involve concurrent events.

It has nothing to do with moving with the timing device, nor is there real and apparent time. Physically, what happens is that there is a time when there was physical existence. Then there is a subsequent time when a representation (from the perspective of the sensory system, and it is known as light in the sensory system of sight) of that physical existence reaches any given appropriate sensory receptor. The delay being a function of prevailing environmental conditions through which the light travelled, and distance between the reality, as at the point in time when it occurred, and the 'eye', as at the point in time when reception of the light occurred. That is, not the distance between the two when the reality occurred, because relative movement can occur whilst the light is travelling.

This simple fact reveals an optical illusion, which many ascribe to being something more than it physically is:

As light travels, there is a delay between the time of occurrence of the existent state (reality), reaction with which resulted in the light at the same time, and the time of the receipt of that light by any given sentient organism. That delay will vary as a function of the distance involved, and the speed with which the light actually travelled in each experience (ie the extent to which environmental conditions had an impact). If there was no significant variable environmental impact, then the perceived rate of any given change in a physical sequence will remain the same, so long as the on-going relative spatial position remains constant amongst everything involved. This is because, while the value of the delay is different depending on distance, it remains constant.

However, when relative distance is altering, then the perceived rate of change alters, because the delay is ever increasing (or decreasing) at a rate which depends on the rate at which the distances are altering. It is a perceptual illusion, as the actual rate of physical change does not alter.

Paul

Vladimir

It's I who am honoured. I only agree to a limited extent about vector analysis. Vectors do of course represent 'something', but we have been fooled into thinking that something is the actual path of a 'light ray'.

I did scan your 'streamlines' quickly quite recently, and believe they are quite analogous to a gradual rotation of re-emission. In fact I've slipped in the odd additional reference to your work in my draft. I'll send the relevant bits in due course. But there are two separate things going on, as two effects using the same process; One kinetic, at the surface with charge asymmetry due to lateral motion, and one in the medium, where the gradual change can be better described geometrically (I agree with a 'curved HFP') and may be more about harmonics? I don't yet have a consistent understanding of the whole set of relationships, except that it is consistent with extinction and birefringence in a medium. Have you considered those relationships?

Peter

Paul

Yes, that is indeed where my long journey started. It can of course be 'wrong' if any one assumption is wrong (trivia of logic) but you make a good point in saying that it's domain may be so limited by it's assumption of empty space that it may simply be irrelevant.

What the DFM does really then is expand it's relevance to space as a medium. It does this by offering the third 'background frame' option, not considered.

He escaped from the illogical single absolute background frame by removing it completely. The DFM option is of co-moving frames which represent physically real and bounded inertial systems. All the paradoxes fall away, all anomalies are resolved, and SR is unified with QM. The problem is that, as Frank points out, it is different to what we're indoctrinated with so is unfamiliar and thus assumed wrong (as Feynman predicted the correct solution would be).

Peter

Frank

The Mad Hatter indeed still influences the topology we inhabit. I agree with almost all you say. But of course Einstein in EPR was decrying action at a distance.

I am only happy with a few rational aspects of supposed 'action at a distance' (AAD) and faster than light (c

    Paul

    With respect your level of understanding needs to be ramped up about 3 levels.

    Consider this perhaps;

    We are standing on a platform with a video camera on a tripod and in a box with a small aperture. An observer standing beside the tripod has an identical box over his head, so he can only see into the train but of course doesn't know it's there.

    A new sexy train that is all glass comes past at v. A bullet is fired at max muzzle velocity, which is a certain speed we'll call 'c' in the train towards the front.

    The video camera captures the bullets motion. When played back all observers will find the bullet speed at c+v, and the observer beside the camera agrees.

    But there were two other observers, one who could see the whole train from the platform and said the bullet travelled at it's max muzzle velocity c in the train, plus another from the train who agreed. Your explanation makes nonsense of that.

    Of course it is very simple. Nothing REALLY did c+v, but the bullet did APPARENT c+v when viewed from a different inertial frame.

    I hope that helps to take a step towards understanding dynamic logic (PDL). you relly must also look up and absorb the rules of 'Proper Time', where time periods (like bullets) are only constant to an observer in the same frame.

    Peter

    Peter

    The speed of the bullet wrt to the video camera, or anything else on the platform, is not v+c The bullet is travelling at c, you said so. It is not part of the train. Unless the train is hermetically sealed, in the sense that it is solid. In which case the speed would be the composite speed wrt all that which was on the platform. For somebody or something on the train, indeed including he train itself, the speed of the bullet is c-v wrt these things, assuming the bullet was fired in the same direction as the motion of the train, because they are travelling at v, you said so.

    Seeing the rest of the train, with or without boxes, and videoing it, is irrelevant, because seeing is not calibrating light speed. The only way that could be done is by calculating timings for light travel and distances in each circumstance (assuming all environmental conditions were equal, ie no one particular light was impeded in travelling more than any other).

    There is a physical reality (ie platforms, trains, people, bullets, etc). As at a point of its existence, there is interaction which generates light (which is a physical reality of itself). This travels.

    Furthermore, time periods have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with observers, constancy, or frames. Timing is not affected by reality, because it is not of reality, it is an extrinsic human measuring system which rates change, eg whilst 100k oscillations occurred in my quartz watch, the elephant moved 10 yards.

    Paul

    • [deleted]

    • Post #63

    Peter,

    I don't think Einstein really understood the characteristics of electromagnetic (EM) fields and the medium in which they are permitted to propagate. The paper (Classical electrodynamics) by J.H.Field, cited in my previous post, attempts to provide a better explanation by invoking the term "virtual photon". Whether a one-legged virtual photon or a regular two-legged EM photon, the field possessed by the photon doesn't just go away after the photon has passed by on its journey, it diminishes at 1/r2. Even after the photon actors have left the stage, just like a heavily perfumed person passing by, something about them remains where they have been and keeps spreading long after they passed by a particular viewing position.

    In a previous post (Jul. 22, 2012), I stated I could not find a mention of permittivity-permeability (P-P) in Einstein's relativity theories. If Einstein had included these characteristics in his theories, he would have had to add some locality conditionals to justify the relativity concepts he published.

    It is the P-P of the material in which an EM field is allowed to propagate that determines the velocity of propagation. It is the way we attempt to explain the velocity difference as light passes through two materials with different P-P that creates a problem. Light does not decelerate when it transitions from a vacuum and enters glass, nor accelerates after leaving, it changes velocity and the velocity change is probably instantaneous at the transition interface. Let the mathematicians argue about whether it is possible to mathematically present an instantaneous change in velocity.

    I do not support the contention that there is "instantaneous" action at a distance regardless of distance. It just appears so within the confines of our solar system distances, a characteristic that is needed to allow the development of complex biological forms.

    Peter

    Well I think, as per my response to you about 'ether/space', they 'wrote off' any effect on dimension that is caused by travelling through this 'medium', which certainly is something (as Einstein said), against time variance (which actually does not exist) which is accommodated for in the Lorentz transformation. Physically, it might be that matter travelling through 'space' and interacting with that which constitutes 'space' does encounter some dimensional effect, ie what you are referring to as background. This is in addition to the effect of gravitational forces which are 'transmitted' through the same 'space'. Now, that definitely causes a 'step change'(ie 'noticeable' alteration in dimension and momentum), supposedly. My point here being that the first effect is omnipresent. So apart from being similar to trying to track the leaf movement attributable to continental drift!, since it is all pervading there is no reference to establish relative difference. Unless, rather like reality expansion, the rates change in particular circumstances. But I suggest you go down the pub and have a couple of beers rather than tackling that.

    SR does not need unifying with anything, it is a purely hypothetical circumstance that is bound to work, because it is so caveated. It's a bit like me defining cows as being...biological defintion of cow...that are just black and white. It is true in accord with its own definition. GR being the entire population of cows. The problem with relativity is in its interpretation through simultaneity and space time. Dimension alteration may or may not occur, and in respect of those two possibilities. QM is a different issue, this relies on a flase presumption as to what measurement does, and what for the most part is being measured. Because measurement (which is a form of sensing) cannot affect reality, it existed previously, and in most measurements it is not reality per se, anyway, that is being measured, but an effect resulting from an interaction with it (aka light). And reality must occur with certainty, it does not exist in some sort of 'muddled' state. This is a classic case of 'please do not adjust your sets we are having problems with transmission' gone wrong. The problem is us, not reality.

    Paul

    Frank

    "I don't think Einstein really understood the characteristics of electromagnetic (EM) fields and the medium in which they are permitted to propagate"

    As far as I understand it we still don't. Also as an outsider, I get this impression of most people addressing what was said then as if it had just been said yesterday. When Lorentz postulated dimension change there were no cars, planes. Then we had two dreadful wars and a depression in between. Then the likes of me and Peter were born. In other words, although it appears 'not long ago', it was a completely different world.

    Also, in my reading of these papers, as an outsider, which has value because I just read what is there, they were really talking about the electrodynamics of movement. Light just got 'muddled' up in this, one reason being that an expectation about the speed of light was what prompted the whole train of thought. Another one being because light speed was substituted for distance, incorrectly, in a (non) equation of time (ie it involved the concept of 'then' back, so a constant was attributed with variance. Instead of being A-B or B-A which is the same, the two became different).

    On the subject of action. By definition, only that which existed at the previous point in time can potentially have any influence, and even then, by definition, that which can, will be limited to that which was adjacent to. In simple language, something cannot be directly affected by something unless it is next to it, and something cannot be affected by something which did not exist immediately previously. Now, that all might sound a dreadfully simplified summation of a very complex circumstance. But this is the power of considering things generically. Forget all the content-'wood for the trees' stuff. You alight on the essence of the problem here with the word "appears". Fundamentally, we are sensing a movie, but in explaining it, we are not decomposing to the single frame level. Which is differentiatable by reference to the fastest rate of change which occurs in reality (ie a clock based on this unit of timing would 'reveal' all).

    Paul

    Frank

    Yes, and AE would have grasped at the 'locality conditionals' as 'Local Reality' was precisely what he was after in the end. Not just P&P but 2.72 degrees etc.

    In terms of the 'photons field' I see that more as the photon itself spreading it's energy out into a wave pattern as it 'dissipates' as an 'entity'. The wave energy is then of many photons, and on the next charging interaction (over some 10^-9 secs) another 'entity' is emitted (Raman scattering).

    The really tricky thing to grasp from my paper is the second 'velocity change' between media. Our minds are poorly developed to rationalise it and it needs rehearsal as it is hiding right before our eyes and impossible to 'see.'; I agree entirely with the 'velocity change' quantified by (not 'due to') the refractive index n of the medium. ('due to' is fooling ourselves). But what then if the medium is in co-motion with the other? We can rationalise a block of glass in a vacuum on Earth, but what about one doing 0.2c through space?.

    This is the entirely independent kinetic change at the refractive plane. It is the frame transformation. n is a constant in glass whether doing 0.2c through space or at rest in the lab. Ergo; The 'velocity change' is due to relative n PLUS relative v. I identify the quantum process and effects which are massively important and resolve about every fundamental problem in physics.

    But virtually invisible to human brains it seems? I'm sure you glimpsed it and it evaporated. That's it's party trick! Can you see it right now?

    Peter

    Paul

    Light 'muddled up' with SR is certainly a view, but consider that light had long been established as just a short band of the em spectrum, so was always central to the 1905 paper. The solution he went for was quite inspired, unfortunately simply wrong. A simpler one existed, not spotted.

    This is still difficult to 'spot' and absorb today, based on the process I describe in my essay and in the post to Frank above. Can you spot it? I'm afraid you've so far failed to get close!

    The irony is that the solution is covering the lenses of our eyes, and indeed all our detectors.; Light changes to local c on arrival AT that layer.!!!

    That is SO self apparent and consistent with the evidence we really can't spot that we haven't spotted it in our theory! It is the 'kinetic' speed change. And when we do so it pretends not to exist and disappears again.

    Don't loose that as it's slippery as an eel, so come back to it, but as far as SR goes he saw he had had 2 options.

    1. An absolute Ether background frame.

    2. No Ether or Ether frame at all.

    In fact there was a third option, undiscovered until now, that resolves all the issues;

    3. Local 'ether' or matter frames (non-absolute).

    Where a frame is simply a 'state of motion'. How are you doing with those deeper levels of understanding? You WILL need to read it at least 3 times and think hard to form a new 'hook' for it in your mind.

    Peter

      Paul

      'The bullet is travelling at c'. Agreed. 'The bullet is travelling at c-v'

      Make up your mind!! why should one observer off the train have any preferential treatment over any other, i.e. those ON the train!

      And what would happen if Earth were moving in the opposite direction and the camera was on the space station, would THEY be the preferred observer?? And if the bullet is fired on Mars and we video it from here. Who gets to see it at c and who at c-v then????

      The whole point your comprehension has not yet reached is that there is NO preferred observer outside the frame in which the bullet travels! (i.e. can use 'PROPER TIME') As Einstein suspected.

      The real and simple solution is that those on the train, whichever way it is going and at whatever speed wrt Mars (we are now also considering a train on Mars, why not!), The passenger will see and be hit be hit by a bullet travelling at c. This is because the whole train, air, passengers and gun IS an inertial frame K, in which, as Galileo and Einstein correctly assumed, the speed limit c and laws of physics are identical to ALL other inertial frames. K'<

      Or (your analogy was good but incomplete) do you really think the Keystone cops cars actually went at 100mph. There are TWO observable 'speeds', as Lorents suspected (1913); 'real' and 'apparent'.

      A hundred other observers on a hundred different planets will receive scattered light signals at CSL (like a movie projector) at c, telling them the bullet went at c wrt the train, or wrt Mars if the train was parked. So their cameras record 'APPARENT' c+v, which is actually 'real' c, precisely like the Keystone cops.

      Now you tell me which part of any of that breaches the speed limit c.

      Peter

      Peter

      I was not happy with my notion of how the possible first order of dimension alteration was 'written off', as per above and in a response to you in a thread above started by me. I would say, after further disentanglement of this 'hall of mittors' that it was simply a case of realising it is omnipresent, and anyway, most light we are considering is generated within the earth's atmosphere. So for practical reasons, it was 'written off'. Concentration then turning to the gravitational force effect of dimension alteration.

      Paul

      Paul

      You are indeed in a hall of mirrors. The simple answer is not there. It's no good going round in circles, you must escape totally to a higher level.

      It's Classical Physics (Relativity) that is not consistent with Quantum Mechanics so it is these two which, quite famously to physicists, need 'unification' to make sense of nature Paul. You really should refrain from dictating what 'is' and 'is not' without doing the years of homework it may take you to get a proper understanding of why they are not compatible. Doing so just means everyone will write you off as a fool.

      Unless you realise what the problems are the chances of resolving them will remain at zero.

      All sensible physicists now very well that they 'do not know'. However, to have someone arrive afresh and claim he does 'know', only classifies him as a complete dimwit in their eyes! In fact the more a genius knows you should find the less he claims to know. There are no 'facts', only opinions, agreement and dssention.

      Peter

      Peter

      "Make up your mind!!"

      I said:

      1 "The speed of the bullet wrt to the video camera, or anything else on the platform, is not v+c The bullet is travelling at c, you said so. It is not part of the train. Unless the train is hermetically sealed, in the sense that it is solid. In which case the speed would be the composite speed wrt all that which was on the platform.

      2 "For somebody or something on the train, indeed including he train itself, the speed of the bullet is c-v wrt these things, assuming the bullet was fired in the same direction as the motion of the train, because they are travelling at v, you said so".

      "why should one observer off the train have any preferential treatment over any other, i.e. those ON the train!"

      It is not preferential, it is a function of wrt. Any judgement involves a reference, and, by definition, the outcome of the judgement reflects the reference used. Any reference can be selected, but to ensure comparability, consistency of reference must then be maintained. In other words, to establish a comparable set of speeds in this scenario, one could select any of the entities involved and assess the speed of the others wrt that. This is proper referencing.

      The other point is that you keep assuming that calibration of speed is a function of observation, which it is not. What people or cameras see is irrelevant. Observation, physically, is a function of light, which are (because there is more than one) just additional physically existent phenomena, along with trains, cameras, observers, etc, in this mix of variables.

      "The whole point your comprehension has not yet reached is that there is NO preferred observer outside the frame in which the bullet travels!"

      See above. Apart from which, this 'frame' you refer to must be different at every point in time, so how does one have comparability of results, and how does one reference everything else to that? Time, as I said in the post, has nothing whatsoever to do with it. This outcome is a function of physical existence. There are things (including light) in relative spatial positions, which are changing in relative spatial position. That's it. Timing is external to this, it is a method for differentiating what is occurring at any given point in time (if we could ever have a timing device that good) across the whole spectrum. So at point in time A, the train is spatial position X, light which is going to reach platform observer spatial position Y, bullet in spatial position Z, etc. Then at point in time B...Etc, etc, etc.

      "we are now also considering a train on Mars, why not"

      Indeed, you can put the train anywhere, and reference the calibration of its speed to anything, just maintain the referencing rules. It makes no difference, just gets more difficult, taking trains to Mars that is!

      "The passenger will see and be hit by a bullet travelling at c. This is because the whole train, air, passengers and gun IS an inertial frame K, in which, as Galileo and Einstein correctly assumed, the speed limit c and laws of physics are identical to ALL other inertial frames".

      The passenger will be hit by the bullet travelling at c wrt to him (or her), (assuming they are in front of it!) because they are on a train and are travelling at the speed of that train, in the direction it is going. So is the gun and whoever fired it. The air is not of the train, unless the train was hermetically sealed. This is the physics of the circumstance. It is not about frames. Which as I have said many times before, are about referencing, not observation.

      Lorentz expressed misgivings about the highjacking of 'local time' to account for dimension alteration. But he appears to have been swept away by the tide. Which all starts with the incorrect definition of what constitutes simultaneity. Here is a quite from my post on my blog (11/7 19.33):

      3 The A & B example (copied from Poincaré) in Einstein section 1 1905, is not correct. The timing of existence is not the same if entities are in the "immediate proximity", and then different if they are not. All entities are at a different spatial location at any given point in time, some are just further apart than others. Different entities cannot be at the same spatial point at the same time. And timing is just a measuring system. So, select a particular point in time, and whatever existed then, did so, even if it is 10 trillion light years away. Each entity, except when it is in the "immediate" proximity" does not have its 'own time', and then there is a "common time".

      4 Einstein: "We have not defined a common "time" for A and B, for the latter cannot be defined at all unless we establish by definition that the "time" required by light to travel from A to B equals the "time" it requires to travel from B to A. Let a ray of light start at the "A time" t(a) from A towards B, let it at the "B time" t(b) be reflected at B in the direction of A, and arrive again at A at the "A time"t'(a). In accordance with definition the two clocks synchronize if t(b) - t(a) = t'(a) - t(b)".

      5 The distance between A & B is the same, by definition, whether it is expressed as A-B or B-A, because it is a difference. It is incorrect to express this in terms of how long light (or anything else) takes to travel one way and THEN the other. The important word being "then". If light speed is constant, it is just the same as using a ruler, or any other measuring tool. The particular use of light speed is pointless. But the problem is that this single distance (a difference) is being expressed as a difference between two different timings (what is used, so long as it is constant, is irrelevant). The equation should be: t(b) - t(a) = t(a) - t(b), which is the same as, and as meaningless as, A-B=B-A. A constant (because there is only one), ie the distance, is being expressed in terms of variance between two different measurements. Timing has been reified into physical reality.

      6 This mistake then becomes embodied in the expression of light speed in terms of timing and distance. Hence c = 2AB/(t'(a) -t(a)). The real question here being: what has light got to do with it? The answer being: nothing. The fact that it enables sight is irrelevant to what constitutes physical reality.

      Paul

      Peter

      The point you make is not a response to the point I was making, which related to a better explanation of how the 'first order of dimension alteration' was resolved away.

      In reponse to what you do say, a better approach would be to question how reality occurs first, since that is what physics is establishing knowledge of, then it would become clear what 'unification' comprises. I am not dictating what is. Oh that I had such powers. I am saying a) physical existence is independent of sensory detection, b) physical existence involves alteration. Which, unless one invokes beliefs, I think is true.

      "There are no 'facts', only opinions, agreement and dssention". Not so (!). Do not forget, we are assembling knowledge of reality here, not reality. By definition that is a closed system,because we are part of it, and therefore potentially fully knowable. And there is a factual answer in every circumstance. In some areas will may well never 'get to the bottom of it', but that is a failure on our part to discern what is there

      Paul

      Peter

      re the cryptic word "muddled" have a look at my post my blog 11/7 19.33. Rather than me reating it here. I will refrain from responding to what you said here for now, because it's tea time. By the way, our little dog (Ralph) was used in a photo shooy today for an ITV programme.

      Paul

      • [deleted]

      • Post #74

      Paul,

      "In other words, although it appears 'not long ago', it was a completely different world."

      I do not know how old you and Peter are, but I received a General Class Radio Amateur license in 1948, when I was in high school, thus I have been aware of the electromagnetic (EM) world for some time. The environment in which EM waves propagate has not changed one wit since Hertz demonstrated their propagation, and cars, planes, wars and economic depressions have absolutely no influence on it. Peter stated the problem correctly by the quote in his essay:

      "The important thing in science is not so much to obtain new facts as to discover new ways of thinking about them." Sir Wm. Bragg.

      More on that in my response to Peter.

      Peter,

      Your quote, "In terms of the 'photons field' I see that more as the photon itself spreading it's energy out into a wave pattern as it 'dissipates' as an 'entity'. The wave energy is then of many photons, and on the next charging interaction (over some 10^-9 secs) another 'entity' is emitted (Raman scattering)."

      The first sentence is somewhat like the concept presented by J.H.Field with the virtual photon, it has an influence beyond its EM dimension, its wavelength. The second sentence implies that a photon can change its basic characteristics, and this is true when you consider what happens to photons (EM waves) when they propagate as solitons. Einstein was in one of several generations that ignored the concepts identified by the Korteweg-de Vries equation (KdV equation for short) as applied to EM propagation. Some of the unusual effects observed from large object gravity shielding can be explained if gravity is an EM wave that propagates as a soliton. Interacting solitons can result in an abrupt change of direction of the field vectors, something that does not happen with the interaction between two conventional transverse EM waves.

      In the 1990s, research on EM solitons revealed they could be exploited for long distance communications, and the results have been spectacular. This is why I constantly remind individuals of the existence of permittivity and permeability, as these characteristics have to exist for an EM wave to propagate, and as a soliton. It is necessary for one of the EM fields to have a longitudinal component for it to propagate as a soliton.