Well to reply to this properly would be a very long article, maybe a book .. instead, seeing we are in this area, I'll just give you two illustrations of top-down effects in the brain.

Illustration 1: How does reading work? Here's a remarkable thing.

• Yu cn red this evn thogh words are mispelt,

• and this thuogh lwtters are wrong,

• And this though words missing.

How can it be we can make sense of garbled text in this way? One might think the brain would come to a grinding halt when confronted with such incomplete or grammatically incorrect text. But the brain does not work in a mechanistic way, first reading the letters, then assembling them into words, then assembling sentences. Instead our brains search for meaning all the time, predicting what should be seen and interpreting what we see based on our expectations in the current context.

Actually words by themselves may not make sense without their context. Consider:

• The horses ran across the plane,

• The plane landed rather fast,

• I used the plane to smooth the wood.

- what `plane' means differs in each case, and is understood from the context. Even the nature of a word (noun or verb) can depend on context:

• Her wound hurt as she wound the clock

This example shows you can't reliably tell from spelling how to pronouce words in English, because not only the meaning, but even pronunciation depends on context.

The underlying key point is that we are all driven by a search for meaning: this is one of the most fundamental aspects of human nature, as profoundly recorded by Viktor Frankl in his book Man's Search for Meaning. Understanding this helps us appreciate that reading is an ongoing holistic process: the brain predicts what should be seen, fills in what is missing, and interprets what is seen on the basis of what is already known and understood. And this is what happens when we learn to read, inspired by the search for understanding. One learns the rules of grammar and punctuation and spelling too of course; but such technical learning takes place as the process of meaning making unfolds. It is driven top down by our predictions on the basis of our understandings, based in meaning..

Illustration 2: Vision works the same way, as demonstrated by Dale Purves in his book "Brains: How They Seem to Work". The core of his argument is as follows (from the abstract of his article on visual illusions):

"The evolution of biological systems that generate behaviorally useful visual percepts has inevitably been guided by many demands. Among these are: 1) the limited resolution of photoreceptor mosaics (thus the input signal is inherently noisy); 2) the limited number of neurons available at higher processing levels (thus the information in retinal images must be abstracted in some way); and 3) the demands of metabolic efficiency (thus both wiring and signaling strategies are sharply constrained). The overarching obstacle in the evolution of vision, however, was recognized several centuries ago by George Berkeley, who pointed out that the information in images cannot be mapped unambiguously back onto real-world sources (Berkeley, 1975). In contemporary terms, information about the size, distance and orientation of objects in space are inevitably conflated in the retinal image. In consequence, the patterns of light in retinal stimuli cannot be related to their generative sources in the world by any logical operation on images as such. Nonetheless, to be successful, visually guided behavior must deal appropriately with the physical sources of light stimuli, a quandary referred to as the "inverse optics problem". "

The resolution is top-down shaping of vision by the cortex, based in prediction of what we ought to see. Visual illusions are evidence that this is the way the visual system solves this problem.

Intriguing, isn't it?

George

And just for completeness here is one from the latest [link:www.frontiersin.org/integrative_neuroscience/10.3389/fnint.2012.00038/abstract?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Neuroscience-w31-2012] neuroscience literature[\link]:

Cognitive functions of the posterior parietal cortex: top-down and bottom-up attentional control

Sarah Shomstein*

Department of Psychology, George Washington University, Washington, DC, USA

Although much less is known about human parietal cortex than that of homologous monkey cortex, recent studies, employing neuroimaging, and neuropsychological methods, have begun to elucidate increasingly fine-grained functional and structural distinctions. This review is focused on recent neuroimaging and neuropsychological studies elucidating the cognitive roles of dorsal and ventral regions of parietal cortex in top-down and bottom-up attentional orienting, and on the interaction between the two attentional allocation mechanisms. Evidence is reviewed arguing that regions along the dorsal areas of the parietal cortex, including the superior parietal lobule (SPL) are involved in top-down attentional orienting, while ventral regions including the temporo-parietal junction (TPJ) are involved in bottom-up attentional orienting.

  • [deleted]

George,

Indeed, it is intriguing.

You wrote, "The underlying key point is that we are all driven by a search for meaning: this is one of the most fundamental aspects of human nature . . . ."

Agreed. Relating this to my comments about the nature of sentience as a property of certain complex systems such as humans, this search for meaning apparently becomes possible only when the complexity of a sentient being has reached some critical tipping point. Or, alternatively, perhaps not a single critical tipping point as much as a more gradual transition across a broader spectrum separating humans from so-called "lower," i.e., less capable, sentient beings such as chimpanzees, for example? At what point does "the search for meaning" kick in? And could this be the point at which two curves showing the relative importance of bottom-up vs. top-down causation meet and cross?

Regardless of the exact point at which the search for meaning kicks in, it seem to be the case that once it does kick in, it has, thus far at least, offered an evolutionary advantage to creatures having this trait. (This unfortunately might be undone or at least seriously set back, of course, by an injudicious application of powerful tools made possible by the search for meaning as embodied in applied science.)

Intriguing indeed.

jcns

For completeness here is a hot off the press set of talks on cultural neuroscience: top-down effects from society to the wiring to the individual and her brain. As I said at the start of the essay, the effect is obvious there: "Culture is now seen as an important macro-level phenomenon that affects a whole range of psychological processes." The question is if it is also important in physics; and I claim it's also there in many places when you look for it.

typo: to the individual and the wiring of her brain

Dear George Ellis,

I agree with your remark on page 1 that "the foundational assumption that all causation is bottom up is wrong, even in the case of physics".

In my PhD project I have developed a formal axiomatic system, that is potentially applicable as a foundational framework for physics under the condition that there is a matter-antimatter gravitational repulsion.

Seven non-logical axioms of this system describe what happens in the individual processes that take place at supersmall scale; in each of these processes then a choice is made (at elementary particle level thus).

As part of the research I have developed a physicalist approach to the mind-body problem from the perspective of this framework; this yielded a mechanism for mental causation which demonstrates that observers have a free will in this universe, that is, in the universe governed by these principles.

The point is that choices in the elementary processes are then imposed by the choice made at macroscopic scale by an observer. So this is an example of top-down causation; in my dissertation this is formalized in an expression.

This discussion is not mentioned in my essay (topic 1336): the essay focuses mainly on the initial considerations in the development of my theory.

Best regards, Marcoen Cabbolet

5 days later
  • [deleted]

Unlike Paul Davies' popular books, which often read like good detective stories, the Walker/Davies piece "The Algorithmic Origins of Life" is kind of tough sledding. At least for me.

Take the statement, "To say that information is 'instructional' (or algorithmic) and 'coded' represents a crucial conceptual leap -- separating the biological from the non-biological realm -- implying that a gene is 'for' something."

Even though I strongly subscribe to the view -- as I believe both Ellis and Davies also do -- that the universe is suffused with meaning and consciousness, I just can't get my mind around what the statement above logically entails: that " ... coded instructions are useless unless there is a system that can decode. interpret and act on those instructions."

In fact, we don't have a warrant to believe that the world is algorithmically compressible. If it isn't, there is no posssible non-arbitrary demarcation between organic and inorganic life. Self-replicating systems, demonstrably, are sustained on the concept of adaptation alone. In my local ecosystem, a mosquito is useless to me, while globally, my continued existence may depend on the mosquito larvae on which the fish feed and on which I in turn feed. I agree with the authors that analog systems are less adaptable than digital-switching memory processing, such as a CNS-endowed creature possesses; however, analog processes in complex systems allow robust network switching of useful resources for required task performance. So I have to disagree that " ... in informational terms ... analog systems are not as versatile or as stable as digital systems and as such likely have very limited evolutionary capacity." In fact, the evolutionary capacity of the complex system is measured in variety and redundance of resources. Nature trades efficiency for creativity, and those created products are manifestly analog systems which provide new input for creating more novel digital mechanical systems producing new analog creations.

I don't know how -- with this piece -- Davies escapes joining the side of biological determinism (The "gene machine" of Dawkins) which in *The Matter Myth* he and John Gribbin criticized: "Many people have rejected scientific values because they regard materialsm as a sterile and bleak philosophy, which reduces human beings to automatons and leaves no room for free will or creativity." Personally, I still regard myself as a materialist and reductionist, though like Gell-Mann, I find no conflict between a continuum of consciousness (quarks to Jaguars) and free will. If one refrains from drawing boundaries between life and non-life, algorithmic subroutines that define life and imbue its creatures with free will are not discontinuous with the complex system by which such life is sustained, though which itself is not demonstrably algorithmically compressible.

I support the "information narrative." I think I'm more prone, though, to accept an approach that treats the narrative *itself* as an evolutionary continuum, such as Gregory Chaitin's newly published *Proving Darwin: Making Biology Mathematical.*

As always, though, Davies is a stimulating and provocative thinker. Thanks for providing this link to the Sara Walker--Paul Davies paper.

Tom

Hi George.

You commented on my essay on quantum boundary conditions, but it's easy to miss posts here so in response to your Point 4; ("You have to take the properties of the boundary into account as well. You regard it as a macro entity, i.e. you don't try to describe its constitution detail.") I paste my response 28/7;

"Interesting view. I know you're currently thinking in a different area, but my essay is actually ALL about the constitution of the quantum boundaries of 'space time geometries' (frames) and how the real interactions there (with non point particles and temporal evolution) produce all the classical macro scale effects we term Relativity.

I'm a little surprised and disappointed that did not emerge for you. I hoped you may try to falsify the ontology as we've have had no success doing so to date.

Have you actually read it all yet?"

etc.

I do hope you've now had a chance to do so, as it deals precisely with what you suggested, and, you are of course correct, the result is of massive import, and cause and effect is a 2 way street. I look forward to your views.

Thanks, and Best wishes

Peter

    Dear George,

    A truly excellent essay which I seemed to miss the first time round. Your fundamental thoughts are most welcome in the competition and I learnt a great deal from your essay. I was pleased to read that you are open minded enough to consider non-ordinary matter, unlike most essay authors. Yes, bottom-up to top-down causation needs to be appreciated by all.

    P.S. I have rebalanced the Public Rating score which you most certainly deserve.

    Alan

      Hello dear thinkers,

      It is a relevant discussion. I agree also with the determinism.

      Mr Singh,

      You say "A universal theory that does not entail this free-will dimension allowing spontaneous conversion of mass-energy-space-time continuum will remain incomplete and unable to describe the universal reality."

      What is for you a free will dimension, physically speaking,..... scalars , vectors,proportions, causes,.... ???

      Regards

      • [deleted]

      George

      Top-Down Causation reminding me Causa finalis(Aristotelian). It is look like teleological causation.

      Yuri

      Sometimes it is, for example when I type these symbols on my computer keyboard and electrons flow to make the same symbols appear on your screen; and sometimes it is not, for example when a particular crystal structure leads to existence of Cooper pairs and hence superfluidity. I have given many examples of both in my essay and the papers it refers to.

      Hi Steve and Friends:

      Thanks for your comment on Determinism.

      Your Question: "What is for you a free will dimension, physically speaking,..... scalars , vectors,proportions, causes,.... ???"

      Answer:

      Free Will in a physical theory is not a spatial or time like dimension but a Degree of Freedom that allows spontaneous conversion of mass to energy or vice-versa without any external condition of cause. Such Degree of Freedom is necessary to allow equivalence of mass and energy and to integrate the missing physics of spontaneous decay and birth of particles from the Zero-point state of the so-called vacuum or dark energy, wherein mass, space, and time are fully dilated as described in my paper - - " From Absurd to Elegant Universe".

      Since this Zero-point state is the most fundamental state of the universe from which particles are born and into which the matter decays over time, the physics of all these phenomena are fundamentals that must be included in any universal theory to avoid any singularities and paradoxes such as those experienced by the current theories - general relativity and quantum mechanics.

      I see a lot of questions and discussions going on in this forum regarding paradoxes that should not arise if the above physics is integrated as shown in my paper. I would greatly appreciate review and comments on my paper from all the participants in this forum so as not to miss the important insights regarding the missing physics that could resolve the ills of physics and cosmology today and avoid unnecessary as well as irrelevant questions that are nothing but artifacts of the missing physics. The universe is a lot simpler to understand than portrayed by current incomplete theories.

      Regards

      Avtar

      I am also posting this as a main comment blog below.

      Hi Steve and George:

      Thanks for your comment on Determinism.

      Your Question: "What is for you a free will dimension, physically speaking,..... scalars , vectors,proportions, causes,.... ???"

      Answer:

      Free Will in a physical theory is not a spatial or time like dimension but a Degree of Freedom that allows spontaneous conversion of mass to energy or vice-versa without any external condition of cause. Such Degree of Freedom is necessary to allow equivalence of mass and energy and to integrate the missing physics of spontaneous decay and birth of particles from the Zero-point state of the so-called vacuum or dark energy, wherein mass, space, and time are fully dilated as described in my paper - - " From Absurd to Elegant Universe".

      Since this Zero-point state is the most fundamental state of the universe from which particles are born and into which the matter decays over time, the physics of all these phenomena are fundamentals that must be included in any universal theory to avoid any singularities and paradoxes such as those experienced by the current theories - general relativity and quantum mechanics.

      I see a lot of questions and discussions going on in this forum regarding paradoxes that should not arise if the above physics is integrated as shown in my paper. I would greatly appreciate review and comments on my paper from all the participants in this forum so as not to miss the important insights regarding the missing physics that could resolve the ills of physics and cosmology today and avoid unnecessary as well as irrelevant questions that are nothing but artifacts of the missing physics. The universe is a lot simpler to understand than portrayed by current incomplete theories.

      Regards

      Avtar

        Hello all,

        Mr Singh,

        Thank you for your answer. But you know, the free will is a result of evolution.Let's take the brain, we have synapses and messages and so causes .In fact even a free will has a cause, here the entangled spheres aged of billions years. The brains are results of evolution, and the free will is a comportment.Lamarck and Darwin shall agree.Because there is a cause between the mass /energy/information Equilibrium.

        So the free will is an effect of a cause. It is evident.Now when the free will converges towards the pure determinism, it is there that it becomes very relevant.Because the pure creativity can be deterministic. The rational convergences appear. If now the free will is not universally coherent, so there is a probelm. We can not say that a free will has not a cause.

        The degrees of Freedom like you say must be always deterministically coherent at all 3D scales , fractalyzed with sense and reason and even wisdom.

        Your zero point state seems in the same logic that a BEC of our mind. You know the number 1 is the secret , the main central sphere.The quantum number becomes a key for finite groups, the volumes so are very very relevant. It is spiritual all that.

        ps: The space time dilation in a pure lorentzian appraoch is dterministic.Maxwell will agree at my humble opinion. :)

        Regards

        • [deleted]

        The issue of time has come up repeatedly in this discussion, even though it's not the essay topic. I've put up a paper on the archive today [link:arxiv.org/pdf/1208.2611v1.pdf] arXiv:1208.2611v1 [gr-qc][/link], considerably strengthening my position about time as stated in my FQXI essay some years ago. I just point this out for those interested; but discussion should take place somewhere else, else this therad will grow out of hand!.

        Here's the abstract:

        Space time and the passage of time

        George F. R. Ellis, Rituparno Goswami

        (Submitted on 13 Aug 2012)

        This paper examines the various arguments that have been put forward suggesting either that time does not exist, or that it exists but its flow is not real. I argue that (i) time both exists and flows; (ii) an Evolving Block Universe (`EBU') model of spacetime adequately captures this feature, emphasizing the key differences between the past, present, and future; (iii) the associated surfaces of constant time are uniquely geometrically and physically determined in any realistic spacetime model based in General Relativity Theory; (iv) such a model is needed in order to capture the essential aspects of what is happening in circumstances where initial data does not uniquely determine the evolution of spacetime structure because quantum uncertainty plays a key role in that development. Assuming that the functioning of the mind is based in the physical brain, evidence from the way that the mind apprehends the flow of time is prefers this evolving time model over those where there is no flow of time.

          George, with your permission, I think I can address at least one of your points above without mentioning the "t" word.

          The distinction you make between world lines and surfaces defines the difference, does it not, between what can be described as top down causation, and what is laterally distributed causality?

          Tom