Recognising Top-Down Causation by George F. R. Ellis

Hello all,

Mr Singh,

Thank you for your answer. But you know, the free will is a result of evolution.Let's take the brain, we have synapses and messages and so causes .In fact even a free will has a cause, here the entangled spheres aged of billions years. The brains are results of evolution, and the free will is a comportment.Lamarck and Darwin shall agree.Because there is a cause between the mass /energy/information Equilibrium.

So the free will is an effect of a cause. It is evident.Now when the free will converges towards the pure determinism, it is there that it becomes very relevant.Because the pure creativity can be deterministic. The rational convergences appear. If now the free will is not universally coherent, so there is a probelm. We can not say that a free will has not a cause.

The degrees of Freedom like you say must be always deterministically coherent at all 3D scales , fractalyzed with sense and reason and even wisdom.

Your zero point state seems in the same logic that a BEC of our mind. You know the number 1 is the secret , the main central sphere.The quantum number becomes a key for finite groups, the volumes so are very very relevant. It is spiritual all that.

ps: The space time dilation in a pure lorentzian appraoch is dterministic.Maxwell will agree at my humble opinion. :)

Regards

The issue of time has come up repeatedly in this discussion, even though it's not the essay topic. I've put up a paper on the archive today [link:arxiv.org/pdf/1208.2611v1.pdf] arXiv:1208.2611v1 [gr-qc][/link], considerably strengthening my position about time as stated in my FQXI essay some years ago. I just point this out for those interested; but discussion should take place somewhere else, else this therad will grow out of hand!.

Here's the abstract:

Space time and the passage of time

George F. R. Ellis, Rituparno Goswami

(Submitted on 13 Aug 2012)

This paper examines the various arguments that have been put forward suggesting either that time does not exist, or that it exists but its flow is not real. I argue that (i) time both exists and flows; (ii) an Evolving Block Universe (`EBU') model of spacetime adequately captures this feature, emphasizing the key differences between the past, present, and future; (iii) the associated surfaces of constant time are uniquely geometrically and physically determined in any realistic spacetime model based in General Relativity Theory; (iv) such a model is needed in order to capture the essential aspects of what is happening in circumstances where initial data does not uniquely determine the evolution of spacetime structure because quantum uncertainty plays a key role in that development. Assuming that the functioning of the mind is based in the physical brain, evidence from the way that the mind apprehends the flow of time is prefers this evolving time model over those where there is no flow of time.

George, with your permission, I think I can address at least one of your points above without mentioning the "t" word.

The distinction you make between world lines and surfaces defines the difference, does it not, between what can be described as top down causation, and what is laterally distributed causality?

Tom

Dear George:

I would be very honoured if you read and commented on my essay. There, I've presented an argument that ties in closely with your points (i) -- (iii), from the perspective of cosmology---the role of which, as you've previously written, is the "background for all the rest of physics and science", while "it is inevitable that... specific philosophical choices will to some degree shape the nature of cosmological theory, particularly when it moves beyond the purely descriptive to an explanatory role---which move is central to its impressive progress."

I hold that space-time is an evolving block, bounded by the cosmic present---but a difference between your EBU model and mine is that while you consider the EBU to be real, whereby the recombination epoch should still exist in no less real a state as five minutes ago, or even the present time that you are reading this comment (possibilism), I consider it to be an ideal mapping of the events that occur in an enduring three-dimensional universe, which is all that really exists (presentism). In section 3 of my essay, I've described how I think this view needs to be reconciled with special relativity theory; therefore, I've argued for a different physical description of simultaneity than what was given by Einstein, which is instead consistent with your point (iii)---since, as I see it, it's Einstein's interpretation of the relativity of simultaneity that leads to the requirement of a block universe.

Since the problem of the description of time in relativity theory is central to it, I would gladly receive any comments relating to this aspect of my essay.

Best regards,

Daryl

Hi Steve, George, and Friends:

Thanks for your reply and comments.

Free will that you are referring to is nothing but biological consciousness emanating from brain, which, I agree, is the result of evolution and causative.

Free will that I am describing in my post and paper is not biological but universal or cosmic spontaneity (non-causative) as evidenced by the well-observed spontaneous decay and birth of particles from Zero-point state (So-called Vacuum). Other physical evidences of such universal spontaneity, free will, or consciousness are the well-established free-willed (self-existent) universal laws of conservation of mass-energy-momentum-space-time, wave-particle complementarity, and equivalence principle wherein the physical processes are spontaneous (eternal) and non-causative. Brains and biological consciousness evolved billions of years later than the fundamental eternal and free-willed source -Zero-point state that governs the wholesome universe.

What is missing from physics and cosmology today is a lack of this degree of freedom to allow a mechanistic conversion of mass to energy and space to time to allow a complete implementation of the equivalence principle into the current theories. Hence, the missing physics leads to singularities (general relativity) and paradoxes such as dark energy, dark matter, quantum gravity, quantum time, measurement paradox, unknown and unverifiable particles, multi-dimensions, multi-verses etc. etc.....For example, when the mass of a galaxy or universe is confined to a point-like volume singularity is experienced in general relativity because no spontaneous mass to energy conversion and subsequent evaporation is allowed. Once this is allowed, as shown in my paper, the singularity goes away. Second example, the accelerated expansion of the universe is not predicted by general relativity because of the missing physics wherein the mass evaporates into the relativistic kinetic energy that provides the observed accelerated expansion. This provision naturally provides the mechanistic physics of expansion rather than the currently used Einstein's blunder fudge factor - cosmological constant.

The point (as described in my paper- -" From Absurd to Elegant Universe" ) I would like to bring to the attention of scientists in this forum that the fundamental reality of the universe is the Zero-point state of the mass-energy-momentum-space-time continuum and fundamental dynamic process that governs the manifested universe is the spontaneous (Free-willed) birth and decay of particles. Neither the Particles/strings nor space-time nor biological evolution are fundamental in themselves but their overall state of the wholesome continuum. There is a lot of focused discussion in this forum on the artifacts -inconsistencies and paradoxes of the missing physics but a lack of focus on the missing most fundamental state and processes that govern the universe at its core. As shown in my paper, once the missing physics is properly included in current theories, the artifact questions and inconsistencies disappear along with artifact paradoxes listed above leading to a coherent and simple/elegant universe.

We must cure the disease (missing fundamental physics) and not focus on merely eliminating symptoms (artifact assumptions, inconsistencies, paradoxes, mysterious phenomena etc.). The castle (universal TOE) cannot be built upon missing fundamental foundations. We must not get lost in trees (artifacts) so as not to lose the vision of the forest (fundamental universal reality).

Best Regards

Avtar

Dear George Ellis,

I commented above that in another reply you said that "reality is unclear" at the particle level because of uncertainty, wave-particle duality, and entanglement. Thus any new understanding of these aspects of reality might have some effect on the conception of 'the bottom' (although equivalence classes might not change). For this reason I invite you to read my current essay, The Nature of the Wave Function. I know that you are probably as overwhelmed by the flood of essays as I am, nevertheless, I think you might find my essay interesting and relevant to "the bottom" and I would very much appreciate your feedback.

Thanks,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Hi George:

I agree with your description of Free Will as the Cosmic Spontaneity and not biological consciousness. My reply was addressed to Steve who mentioned biological or brain-induced consciousness or free will in his reply post.

Since, definition of Free Will as understood by different people has a lot of stigma attached to it, let me try to rephrase the Free will as regard to vacuum and please let me know if you agree. The Zero-point state represents the relativistic state of the universe wherein mass-space-time have fully dilated to zero. This state represents the state of the self-existent, non-causative, hence free-willed laws of the universe without any manifestation of matter-space-time. Hence, it can also defined as the state of the Cosmic Free Will (as opposed to the individual or personal free will in the usual sense) of the self-existent and eternal universal laws.

Your comments will be appreciated.

Regards

Avtar

George,

Thank you for the alert to your new paper on the nature of time. Fully concur with your request that discussions take place elsewhere. Any suggestions as to where that "elsewhere" should be? You can rest assured that the FQXi "time mafia" and others will be reading your paper with great interest and eager to discuss it in an appropriate venue.

jcns

Hi to both of you,

Mr Singh,

You are welcome,

here is my point of vue,

The causality is more than we can imagine in fact.

The universality for me is the reason of being. It is evident that a certain consciousness must be correlated with this free will. The free will is less that the universal consciousness. The free will can be chaotic, the universality , it , is harmonious in its pure generality of evolution optimization spherization.

I beleive that the free will can converge with this consciousness.It is the most important at my humble opinion.

The Universe is rational and purely deterministic , the causality is at all scales in 3D. The free will is a result of evolution correlated with our brains, the stimuli are numerous like the genetic like the education, like the informations or this or that. In fact, the free will is still more interesting when the consciousness is its sister and the wisdom its brother. It is simple in fact this universality.

The free will is like a pure instinct, but we evolve and so we imrpove , we optimize, we catalyze with wisdom. It is the only one universal way of optimization spherization. We imrpove simply the mass with the help of light....

Best Regards

George:

When you say, "homogeneous surfaces in an expanding cosmology are locally rest spaces for the fundamental observers, but are not globally simultaneous as defined by radar", you use an operational definition of "simultaneity", according to which synchronous events that occur on clocks that have been synchronised by radar are called "simultaneous". In my essay, I've used the word "simultaneous" to mean the sets of events that take place on surfaces of constant cosmic time. I therefore make a clear distinction between simultaneity and synchronicity in my essay, and explain how that distinction agrees with intuition and special relativity theory.

In FLRW cosmology, a particular separation between space and time is made a priori in setting up the kinematical background geometry, along with the requirement that synchronous-and-simultaneous slices (defined by that separation) should be both isotropic (according to observation) and homogeneous (so that they're isotropic at every point, in accordance with the cosmological principle). Since the RW scale-factor doesn't necessaily have to satisfy Friedman's equations a priori, the standard cosmological model is not purely general relativistic, as it only becomes general relativistic when the metric is subsequently required to satisfy Einstein's equations---the eventual result of which tells us that the maximally symmetric surfaces should be filled with matter in the form of a perfect fluid, and that they must expand according to the description that's given by Friedman's equations.

You claim in your paper that the argument from special relativity for a block universe is irrelevant; but the model in which space is flat and a(t)=1 is an (elementary) FLRW model, and although it contains no matter, the kinematical description still has to be consistent with that of the more general models, which essentially results from the separation between space and time that's given a priori in the background metric. How can the unique congruence of fundamental worldlines be claimed instead to be defined by matter, when the dynamical equations of FLRW cosmology are derived subsequent to the kinematical restrictions on the background geometry? In order to argue effectively for an EBU, it is imperative---for logical consistency in physically interpreting the special case---to reconcile the elementary FLRW model with special relativity theory. This is what I've done in section 3 of my essay, the upshot being that the surfaces of constant cosmic time which I take to define simultaneity should clearly not necessarily have to be synchronous, which is one of the basic assumptions of FLRW cosmology. I would very much like it if we could continue discussing this over on my site, where I've already posted a response to the comment you left for me.

Daryl

Daryl,

With all due respect, George specifically stated above that he does *not* want to discuss his paper on time here! See above his post on 14 August which reads as follows:

"The issue of time has come up repeatedly in this discussion, even though it's not the essay topic. I've put up a paper on the archive today arXiv:1208.2611v1 [gr-qc], considerably strengthening my position about time as stated in my FQXI essay some years ago. I just point this out for those interested; but *discussion should take place somewhere else*, else this therad will grow out of hand!."* [emphasis added]

I'm hoping he'll be able to suggest another, more suitable venue for that discussion.

jcns

Hi Steve:

Thanks for your thoughts and views. You can define Free Will in your own way as you like. What I have been referring to the Cosmic Free Will as Cosmic Consciousness that is above and beyond time and evolution. A will that is constrained in time and evolution of brain, culture, and that could be chaotic is not a truly "FREE" but rather a constrained will bounded in time and body/brain.

But, if that is your definition, I have no problem with it.

My purpose of bringing the cosmic consciousness in this forum is to raise awareness of the scientists here towards the crucial missing physics in the current theories without which no Theory of Everything is possible. What I have noticed that most popular definition of Free Will is widely understood to be related to bodily evolution because of the dominant effect of biological evolution in science and our lives.

While there is a lot of discussion in this forum on what assumptions are wrong, these is a lack of emphasis or awareness of the what is critically missing from physics that is causing the CRISIS today. my posted paper --" From Absurd to Elegant Universe" tries to address what is missing to resolve the crisis rather than pointing to what are wrong assumptions only.

Best Regards

Avtar

Dear George,

I am very interested to know your views on the relationship between causality and time. To be sure we understand each other, let me say that I lean toward the view that time is a way of talking about causal relations. This is part of what I call the causal metric hypothesis, as I describe in my essay:

On the Foundational Assumptions of Modern Physics

Rafael Sorkin and the causal set theorists have a similar view, but with a number of important differences.

From my perspective, your essay seems to imply something quite radical, so radical that the simplest version of it is more complicated than the idea of multiple time dimensions. I mention this as an unlikely possibility near the end of my essay, but your treatment makes the idea sound quite reasonable.

Let me be more precise. As you well know, causality is sometimes regarded, at the classical level, as a binary relation on the set of spacetime events. By definition, such a relation is exclusively bottom-up; the relationships between two subsets of the universe are reducible to relations between individual events. In this view, the arrow of time corresponds to the order of events with respect to this relation. Multiple independent relations could be interpreted as multiple time dimensions in an obvious way.

What you seem to be claiming is that causality in fact involves binary relations on the power set of the set of spacetime events; i.e., that subsets involving multiple events influence each other in irreducible ways. In this view, it seems as though time might be understood as one-dimensional at the level of power sets (provided only one power-set relation is involved), but much more complicated at the level of spacetime itself.

One other point of comparison I would like to make is that a degree of holism already appears at the quantum level even if one restricts to binary relations involving only pairs of events, since the phases associated with transitions a priori depend on the entire universes involved (in practice, this would be somewhat restricted; the causal set theorists play around with axioms to this effect, but I don't go into these details). This makes me wonder if complicated power-set relations are really necessary at the classical level. Most of your examples are classical, so it seems that you think the answer is "yes."

I thoroughly enjoyed your thought-provoking essay. I'd be grateful for any remarks you might make on these issues.

Ben Dribus

Dear Ben Dribus,

I assume that Carey Ralph Carlson's essay on causal set theory gives a reasonable introduction to causal set theory and thus is helpful in interpreting your essay. My sense is that it is a mathematician's theory, or a physicist 'gone native'. As I understand it, you begin with time (as an ordered binary relation) and no space. Thus, to handle George's two-way causal flow you appear to need multiple time dimensions (or equivalent?)-- not a solution that would appeal to most physicists.

Another non-physical mathematical interpretation involves quantum phases depending on "the entire universes involved". For a different physical understanding I refer you to my essay, The Nature of the Wave Function, which derives finite extent wave functions from a classical field and explains how these relate to probability amplitudes and superposition of [infinite] Fourier components. In such an approach there is no "quantum wave function of the universe", only local waves.

My previous essays treated the universe as based on one physical substance (and *nothing else*) and assumes this substance (the primordial field) can evolve only through self-interaction. This leads to a scale-independent solution (hence, per Nottale, motion-invariant, ie, time-invariant) with no meaningful physical interpretation of time until the original perfect symmetry breaks. In this sense I begin with space and no time versus your assumption of time and no space.

Although it's difficult to summarize this approach in a comment, the point I'd like to make in response to your above comment is that the essential nature of the primordial field (which turns out to be gravity) is to support self-interaction (since there is initially absolutely nothing else to interact with) and this (evolving as it has into the world as we know it) is at the root of the ability of our universe to support top-down as well as bottom-up causality.

I suspect that you're rather committed to your causal metric approach but if you'd like a different take on this problem, I refer you to my previous essays, here and here.

Although this comment addresses your specific comment, I hope that George also is interested in one fundamental explanation of the two-way causal nature of reality.

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Edwin,

Thanks for the response to my remark. I don't want to clutter George's thread, but the discussion is directly relevant to his essay, so I don't think he'll mind if I reply here.

I do not think the issues regarding time and causality raised by top-down causation are specific to approaches based solely on causal structures, nor to approaches involving configuration spaces. I mentioned the causal approach in this context not because it is my own, but because it simplifies the issue I was trying to get at, by removing independent structures that might clash with the causal structure, independent notions of locality, and so on. I mentioned configuration spaces because they seem to introduce top-down causality at the quantum level without requiring any radical new interpretation of the classical relationship between causality and time.

The issue can be stated in a simple setting that has nothing to do with the origin of the universe or the microscopic structure of spacetime. Assume special relativity as a large-scale, low energy approximation. We call causally-related events timelike-separated for reasons that are obvious to every physics undergraduate. What, if any, corresponding time-related statement do we then make about larger subsets that are causally related in an irreducible way?

If time in relativity is taken to represent a refinement of the causal order, then top-down causation clearly does require a radical new interpretation of time. If time merely corresponds to the lowest-level part of a power-set-relation, then this correspondence clearly endows the lowest-level part with unique significance.

Either way, I am interested to know what George would say about the relationship between causality and time in a top-down paradigm.

Dear Ben,

As indicated by my mention of Carey Carlson's essay, I'm a neophyte to causal sets, with little knowledge of it or intuition for it. I suspected it was over-simplifying to say that you start with 'time and no space' since you've elsewhere commented that "the causal metric hypothesis includes the assumption that what we call time is just a way of talking about causality, and what we call causality is just a way of talking about binary relations on sets." This seems to jive with "If time merely corresponds to the lowest-level part of a power-set-relation, then this correspondence clearly endows the lowest-level part with unique significance."

George mentions the brain in his essay, but does not directly mention consciousness. I suppose a materialist view supports a view of 'top down' causation that involves key strokes on a computer and other design tasks yet he does say that "The mind is not a physical entity, but it is certainly causally effective." As an exercise one can probably apply causal sets to the mind, but I believe that a more comprehensive perspective is required. Although these questions won't be settled anytime soon, I simply thought I'd point to my earlier essays that directly address these problems as I see them.

I too am interested to know what George would say about the relationship between causality and time in a top-down paradigm, and will not take any more of his blog space with my own views.

Edwin Eugene Klingman