Hmm,

I meant to point out above that I started writing my Dec. 10 23:08 GMT post before Joy's 22:26 GMT post, and found it interesting that he began to answer a question I hadn't asked yet. Now that's simpatico.

I'm thinking now that what causes the strong correlations in Joy's construction is actually just the flatness of octonionic space. To an extent; we can speak of parallelizability as though parallelization has already taken place - as the property is inherent in S3 and S7 - in effect assuring certain alignments will be parallel. One could say that distant elements of space have the same flow directionality, which though invisible is nonetheless influential.

Regards,

Jonathan

Jonathan,

You are spot on. Note how much effort I have put in to explain the significance of parallelization in my latest paper and in the Chapter 7 of my book.

Parallelization, however, is not an inherent property of S3 and S7 in general. They could be round in general, not flat. The quaternionic and octonionic S3 and S7, however, are indeed inherently flat, or parallelized, by the very algebras of quaternions and octonions. Therefore when I write S7 what I have in mind is what Rick calls O and not necessarily what Michael may have in mind for S7. His S3 and S7 could be round and not flat. Points of a round S3 or S7 cannot correlate strongly to reproduce quantum correlations. Points of no other space can correlate as strongly as those of parallelized S3 and S7. All efforts to reproduce quantum correlations local-realistically which ignore this fact are doomed to miserable failure.

Best,

Joy

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Jonathan,

I have to say I'm no mathematician. God help me if my life should ever depend on solving a Rubik's Cube. That said, I certainly respect the ability to sustain and build on that degree of conceptual complexity and appreciate where these models have taken civilization. I think though, the chore to which we set ourselves is not so much to project to the next levels of emergent complexity, but to go back and review why this mathematical modeling is creating such a bizarre description of physical reality. C.S.Escher was an accomplished amateur mathematician, yet any five year old would intuitively know what he drew in two dimensions could not be built in three dimensions. Ptolomy is one of history's greatest mathematicians and really all Copernicus and Galileo did was to make the motion of the earth one more part of the system. Yet that particular detail escaped serious consideration for a thousand years. So the search is not so much where does the math lead, but what has been overlooked getting where it's currently at.

  • [deleted]

Quoting Joy:

"Jonathan,

You are spot on. Note how much effort I have put in to explain the significance of parallelization in my latest paper and in the Chapter 7 of my book."

Very impressive Jonathan.

James putnam

Thanks James, and Joy;

In this case parallelization then means 'all stretched out and laid flat.' Someone once said "the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain," and that almost seems to fit here. So with a parallelized S7 and/or S3 we have strong correlations, and a space that behaves as though it is Euclidean. Cool.

Have Fun!

Jonathan

Given that:

"The quaternionic and octonionic S3 and S7, however, are indeed inherently flat, or parallelized, by the very algebras of quaternions and octonions." A lot of interesting properties come to mind, in addition to the ones cited. Couldn't this fact be exploited to solve the hierarchy or vacuum energy problem? As Tom says, it bridges the local and global frame of reference or erases the distinction, but that should generalize to include the bridging of macro with microscale Physics.

I'll think on this; I have some ideas on how such a bridge could be constructed.

All the Best,

Jonathan

Jonathan quoting Joy: "'The quaternionic and octonionic S3 and S7, however, are indeed inherently flat, or parallelized, by the very algebras of quaternions and octonions.' A lot of interesting properties come to mind, in addition to the ones cited. Couldn't this fact be exploited to solve the hierarchy or vacuum energy problem?"

Right on, Jonathan. The mathematical problem of seamlessly uniting analysis and algebra is as hard as the physical problem of explaining the correlation of discrete events within continuous spacetime. The meaning of Joy's seminal result can be summed up easily: there is no non-locality. No simultaneity of events. No quantum entanglement.

Mass hierarchy among string theorists is considered a nonlocal problem resolved by supersymmetry (conventionally, string theory and QFT in general are theories of nonlocal hidden variables) -- which is why I think Michael misinterprets my emphasis on spacetime symmetry as leaving out the broken symmetry of particle physics (and thus my model cannot be realistic). This isn't exactly true -- I think that what nature gives up in spacetime (i.e., continuous, topological) symmetry is restored in the symmetry of particle correlations. A continuous measurement function of correlated properties -- to infinity -- is not only the strongest form of symmetry, it obliterates the local-global distinction by constraining measurement to local events (no value is assigned to nonlocality).

As you insightfully realize, the mass hierarchy problem (along with the cosmological horizon problem) is solved thereby, because broken particle symmetry is an illusion; the mass continuum is as real and as local as the spacetime continuum. What drives the illusion? -- just as Joy has it, the handedness of of the topology, the hidden variable. Every continuous measurement function hides a singularity.

All best,

Tom

Hi Joy,

My "characterization of quantum or no-signalling non-locality as non-locality in mere description and not in reality" is the main event here. It is not the case that I'm not accepting Bell's reasoning, but that I am transcending his reasoning by exposing a tacit assumption, and *nobody* seems to be fine with that at all. I have been shocked and appalled by the new standard that seems to have infiltrated physics: if a proof is ignored, then somehow it isn't true. This has happened with your proof that Bell was wrong, and it is happening with my *proof* of what the underlying paradigm shift here really is. It doesn't matter how long the physics community wilfully chooses to ignore a *proof* it won't make any difference - still true, always true. The longer it goes on, the worse it looks for the physics community.

The problem I have with your (and Rick's) claim of an underlying 1+7 form to physical space, is my unwavering adherence to the scientific standard of acknowledging physical evidence - specifically the evidence summarised in the Standard Model particle table. Simply reading this yields my count of 3 families of particles with a total of 8 charges per family - matching the V_8, S+_8, S-_8 of the octonions - where each charge is independent of the others. My acceptance of the *proof* of Noether's theorem gives me the conclusion that each charge represents an independent degree of freedom. In addition, these particles exist in a 3+1 dimensional spacetime with 2 possible spins and as particle and anti-particle. By my count, the physical evidence so far gives a total of 12 independent degrees of freedom. However, if we take a closer look at the particle evidence, we find that the electroweak charges are chiral, e.g. there is no evidence of a right-handed neutrino. So the particle evidence is saying that there is a linkage between the 4 spacetime degrees of freedom and the 8 particle degrees of freedom - so scratch 1 from the total count, 12-1 = 11.

Trying for all eternity to shove these 11 net degrees of freedom into a 1+7 physical space won't make any difference, 11>8 says it's never going to happen. If we add the quaternions to the octonions then we have a physical space of the form (1+3)+(1+7) with a total of 12 degrees of freedom. But these spaces are linked by way of sharing the same identity - the 1 - which has just been counted twice, so we need to subtract 1, (1+3)+(1+7)-1 = 11. The net degrees of freedom count - from reading the evidence of the particle table - gives 1+3+7=11. This is why all extra-dimensional theories *have* to have at least 11 dimensions, and many have spotted that actually it has to be 11. There is no way to escape this simple count, except by ignoring *physical evidence* in addition to ignoring *proofs*, and that just isn't science.

The issue is how to explain your results within the framework of (1+3)+(1+7), not how to account for QFT into (1+7), because the vast weight of particle physics evidence says that is never going to happen. The physical evidence encapsulated in the SM particle table is not a matter of perspective, and ignoring it isn't science. Your HVF *must* fit in a physical (1+3)+(1+7) reality because both are correct - simply denying one of them is not a solution.

Best,

Michael

I've solved the discrepancy between my conclusion that the colour group is *physically* Spin(3) - the S3 fibre of S7 - and it appearing to be SU(3) in the SM. This is explained by the linkage between (1+3) and (1+7) on the identity (1). Basically the SM notation for gluons is *exactly* as it reads: a red-antired gluon is *not* in the adjoint representation of SU(3), but a direct product representation of Spin(3) in spacetime. If the colour group were SO(3), then the direct product of the 3D representations would be 3*3=1+3+5. But in Spin(3), opposite points of the S3 group space are distinguishable (unlike in SO(3)) so for the 3D Spin(3) representation (r,g,b), r is distinguishable from -r (unlike in SO(3)). Now when the Spin(3) representation is combined with the spacetime representation of particles and antiparticles, a red particle + a red anti-particle is colourless (r+(-r)=0). So the spacetime Spin(3) representation 3 is distinguishable from 3-bar (the complex conjugate), and the direct product representation 3*3-bar = 1+8, gives a colour singlet + colour octet. Hence the appearance of the colour group being SU(3) in the SM is accounted for by colour *physically* being Spin(3) - the S3 colour fibre of S7.

With this addition, the QFT derived in my paper is *precisely* that of the Standard Model. As 4D GR is also derived in the same dimensional reduction of the pure geometric 11D GR, the physical theories for the 4 forces of nature are derived within the theory - a unification of physics. The crux to registering the derivation of the Standard Model QFT is the specific instance in section 6 of the generic *proof* of a pan-science paradigm shift.

  • [deleted]

"I'm thinking now that what causes the strong correlations in Joy's construction is actually just the flatness of octonionic space. To an extent; we can speak of parallelizability as though parallelization has already taken place - as the property is inherent in S3 and S7 - in effect assuring certain alignments will be parallel. One could say that distant elements of space have the same flow directionality, which though invisible is nonetheless influential.

In this case parallelization then means 'all stretched out and laid flat.' Someone once said "the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain," and that almost seems to fit here. So with a parallelized S7 and/or S3 we have strong correlations, and a space that behaves as though it is Euclidean. Cool."

What if space doesn't reduce to algebra, but algebra reduces to space? We naturally want to start from a "starting point," or "singularity," but what if nature "starts" with the void?

"Flatness" and "non-locality" would start to make more sense. The only two potential attributes space has are inertia and infinity. The absolute and the infinite.

Hi Michael,

I can imagine a malevolent physics professor assigning a single exam problem:

"Provide a mathematical proof that spacetime is physically real."

There can be little doubt that most students will launch into an explanation of Minkowski space and general relativity. An honest grader will fail them all. The question is simply unfair.

Physicists assign to "proof" the least significant meaning that they can get away with. In formal logic however -- as in your applications of Godel's theorem to physics -- self consistent proofs made of logically closed judgments rest on axiomatic judgments that cannot be proven, judgments that cannot be closed.

A few years ago, I was scandalized by James Putnam's claim that Newton's equation f = ma is wrong. It clearly isn't wrong -- one unit of force is equal to one unit of mass multiplied by one unit of acceleration, which we can directly test. Later I came to understand that he means that "mass" is undefined in the equation; in this he is certainly mistaken -- the calculation of the values of the equation are independent of how "force" and "mass" are defined. We could just as well make it a theorem: f = m. That is, mass is defined to be the quantity for which f - m = 0. It is trivial to mathematically prove this relation. Likewise, it is trivial to mathematically prove the relation between mass and rest energy, E = m, whose algebraic reduction E - m = 0 as it happens is identical to the reduction of Newton's f - m. In other words, we don't lose any physical meaning in either Newton or Einstein by truncating those seminal equations to their essentials -- they mean the same thing. That is -- mass-energy at rest is of measure zero.

Measure zero is easily handled in mathematics, and impossible to handle in physics if the object is to "prove" something. The genius of Ernst Mach and Einstein gave us relative motion. Now we are free of imagining objects at rest; physically, there is no measure zero, no absolute nonlocal origin where motion ceases.

How does one describe that mathematically? -- only in a measurement function continuous from an initial condition. One does that by integration over an interval. There is no mathematical proof of integration -- the "a" (acceleration) term in Newton's equation, and the "c" (speed of light constant) in Einstein's, are the same term, as demonstrated by Einstein's principle of equivalence between inertial and gravitational mass. Local physics is incompatible with infinite acceleration, and there will never be a way to prove that mathematically, in principle. We can only appeal to symmetry in our mathematical picture, which is why I am glad you brought up Noether's theorem.

In the presenter Rob Thompson's penultimate slide and the one preceding, one is compelled to understand that the symmetry between points A and B is mediated by time alone (how the curve changes, i.e., accelerates) -- and that measurement is continuous on the interval {- oo, oo}. In Bell, that interval is taken to be the arbitrary distance between arbitrarily chosen A's and B's with no acceleration curve. Joy Christian realized that the correlation function between A and B is not arbitrary; that if one considers a 2-way measurement -- (4pi rotation vice 2pi) -- one will find a constant spacetime relation between A & B at any later time, any distance, just as Einstein realized in the equivalence principle. Why? Because the topological initial condition that supports the measurement of correlation between A & B, cannot be the Bell interval. It has to be the topology of parallelized S^7 -- which accommodates a measurement function continuous from the initial condition in a finite space, equivalent to the limit of a generalized acceleration curve.

That's all physics, sans philosophy, sans mathematical proof.

All best,

Tom

" ... what if nature "starts" with the void?"

The void is a singularity.

Hi Tom,

I think you've misinterpreted the real character of my application of Gödel's theorem: it is a mathematical proof about the limitations of using mathematics to *describe* causation in a particulate physical reality. One object = one maths term; N objects = N terms in a set (cardinality gives the natural numbers); one action in reality = one maths operation; actions in reality change the number of objects and their denotation in a mathematical theory gives arithmetic over the numbers of objects in the sets. This is just about the use of mathematical notation for discrete objects and object states being changed by causation. This is the bare minimum required to mathematically *describe* changes to particulate objects in a causal reality. Any physical theory of objects and causation will incorporate these features, otherwise it isn't describing reality. The moment you use maths to describe causal reality with discrete objects in it, then you are *bound* by this proof - there is no escape, and hand-waving doesn't make any difference.

Just as Gödel's proof was meta-mathematics, this is meta-science or meta-physics - analysis of the underlying process of constructing a scientific theory to find that there-exist bounds on the process. You're thinking about it as just being physics, it is the next level up, which is why physics cannot escape it. Denial is the only option; not wanting to believe it because it explicitly disproves the current paradigm. On the philosophy side it is worth noting that it explicitly disproves the Western philosophical view. The Eastern side of the world has a different philosophical view not bound by the Western paradigm.

I also appreciate the topological features of a parallelised S7, but that doesn't alter the fact that 11 won't go into 7. Furthermore, every other physicist with knowledge of particle physics and QFT knows that the minimum number of dimensions in an extra-dimensional theory is 11 - basically for the reasons I have given. To them, and me, the claim that physical space is just S7 is sans counting, and is trivially wrong as 11>7. Continuing to claim that Joy's work is dependent upon physical space bieng S7 - *not* true - is just a gift to quantum fundamentalists and leaves Joy's proof open to simple dismisal - not helpful!

Best,

Michael

Hi Michael,

I am finally having the brainstorm I have been longing for. I have the solution to our problem. The idea is to have our cakes and eat them too. I will be starting a new thread shortly. This one was excellent for posing the problem. In the new thread I will be proposing a solution, my way.

More soon,

Joy

Hi Michael,

Let me first state the problem as I see it. My framework assumes the physical space to be S3, which is nontrivially embedded in S7 [for example, as in equations (6.105) to (6.108) of my book].

You, on the other hand, start with S10 and arrive at the *conclusion* S3 x S7, where S3 is the uncompactified physical space and S7 is the compactified space of particle symmetries.

Until now I have been trying to pass a camel through the eye of a needle. I have been trying to embed my physical space S3 into your symmetry space S7. But that is just silly. Your S7 is a compactified space, whereas my S3 is a macroscopic space. The correct way to go about this is to recognize that your S3, as it appears in your product S3 x S7, is just one of the fibres of an uncompactified S7, just as in my framework, where this second S7 is a totally different S7 from your S7 of particle symmetries. So what we actually need is a S4 worth of S3-fibres, each of which being equipped with a compatified symmetry space S7. In other words, what we need is S4 worth of S3 x S7.

A natural way to get this is by considering the following fibration of S15:

S7 ---> S15 ---> S8.

Locally S15 is then a product space S8 x S7, where S7 is your compactified symmetry space. S8 in this product can now be further broken up into S1 x S7, where this S7 is an uncompactified bundle of 3-spheres (i.e., S4 worth of 3-spheres), and S1 may be taken as time.

Now before you start getting nervous about this picture, note that you can still have your S3 x S7 as a *conclusion*, but with a little difference. Your S3 is now just *one* of the fibres of my S7, which is locally a product of the form S3 x S4. This way we can have our cakes and eat them too. You can keep your particle symmetry space S7, and I can use the uncompactified S7 to derive quantum correlations for arbitrary quantum states, involving large dimensions and macroscopic distances.

Needless to add, S15 also has a compelling mathematical presence in the edifice of division algebras.

Best,

Joy

    Hi Michael,

    Yes, of course, I recognize how you're applying Godel's theorem -- my point was, and as you acknowledge, the theorem itself has nothing to do with physics. Physics can only be operationally self-consistent; math "things" and physical "things" are not identical. As Barrow (I think) put it, one does not add two cups of water to two cups of popcorn and get four cups of soggy popcorn.

    Yet, the operation -- 2 + 2 -- is the same in each case. Extending the analogy, suppose the water were to represent continuous functions and the popcorn discrete objects. In this respect, one would have to consider topology and the embedding theorems and forget about making algebra and its rules the mother of all mathematical physics. I expect that I have a much more compartmentalized way of thinking than any of y'all -- counting functions and measurement functions are distinctly different; one does not simply convert one into the other by calling a measurement function a counting function. (Transitivity plays a large role in the difference, but that is a longer discussion.)

    "Any physical theory of objects and causation will incorporate these features, otherwise it isn't describing reality."

    I have consistently made the point in these forums that science cannot *assume* reality, and at the same time expect to *discover* reality. Quantum mechanics does a great job of assuming reality; the standard model does a great job of assuming reality -- the models are the most successful in all of science, so why are we still wangling over "reality?" The issue -- you nailed it -- is causality:

    "The moment you use maths to describe causal reality with discrete objects in it, then you are *bound* by this proof - there is no escape, and hand-waving doesn't make any difference."

    To assume any specific causal model of definite structure IS hand waving. The same problem I had with Lisi's E8 model (I had long discussions with Ray Munroe on this subject), is the problem I have with this year's first prize essay winner -- which made me realize that it's not likely any FQXi judge of "foundational" research will touch what I do, with a 10-foot pole.

    "Just as Gödel's proof was meta-mathematics, this is meta-science or meta-physics - analysis of the underlying process of constructing a scientific theory to find that there-exist bounds on the process. You're thinking about it as just being physics, it is the next level up, which is why physics cannot escape it."

    I agree! Joy has his way to describe having the cake and also eating it. My own way is summed in two simple words: metaphysical realism. Any local realistic theory cannot be other than metaphysically real.

    The patently self organized universe does not demonstrably *require* a causal structure. As much as Joy may disdain my explanations, and lean to algebraic models, I find that simple connectivity and initial condition are entirely sufficient to assure the continuous, self reproducing and self limiting phenomena we observe. I consider "causal structure" an obsolete way of thinking of how nature works at its foundation, not new at all. I thought that George Ellis' essay would surely win first prize -- which would venerate relativistic dynamics with feedback at every scale; though Ellis doesn't go nearly far enough, it's a start. My own entry was always a long shot for obvious reasons, having challenged a member head-on (for which, of course, I harbor no regrets and which challenge still stands).

    "Continuing to claim that Joy's work is dependent upon physical space bieng S7 - *not* true - is just a gift to quantum fundamentalists and leaves Joy's proof open to simple dismisal - not helpful!"

    No one claimed that any measurement function is performed in any space except our four dimensions -- i.e., Minkowski space-time or the S^3 manifold. Which underscores that reality is what we are looking for, not what we assume.

    All best,

    Tom

    Hi Joy,

    Intriguing ... It is the reverse of the division I looked at for S15, and makes far more sense. The S1 of time divides off from S8 in a fairly natural looking way, and results in both of my physical spaces S3 and S7 as having the same status of being fibres:

    S15 -> S7*S8 -> S7*(S1*S7) -> S7*(S1*(S3*S4))

    The extra 4 dimensions are collected together in a macroscopic S4 basespace to give the rather strange feature of an apparently hidden space. I was adverse to the possibility of such a feature as it seemed a step too far, given everything else I am saying. With the required chiral mapping from S7 fibre of S15 to the S3 fibre within the S7 of the S8 basespace of S15, the S7 fibre would be split into S3*(S1*S3) and give the particles as topological defects as per my theory.

    So I'm seeing no conflict with the points where my theory connects with GR, the Standard Model and the particle table. At the conceptual mathematical level, as the last of the Hopf spheres S15 is the last word on the sphere nesting possibilities.

    Best,

    Michael

    Let's see..

    Isn't S15 associated with the Sedenions? Non-commutative, non-associative, but also non-alternative. Hmm... Does this perhaps guarantee that S15 represents a maximally uncorrelated space? This new thread looks very interesting, with a promising opening note. Maximally uncorrelated S15 may define an upper limit on indeterminacy or undecidability. I'll have to ponder this.

    Well; I've always thought possibilities must precede actualities. This may do just that.

    Regards,

    Jonathan

    For what it's worth;

    I think the idea of both a compact and an uncompactified S7 coexisting to produce both particle symmetries and correlations is brilliant. As you say, Joy; having the cake and eating it too is a realistic possibility here. I find this option easy to visualize, without a lot of force fitting needed.

    Michael's comment about S15 being the last word on sphere nesting is a key point, because it is one figure that implies the whole range of spheres (if I'm not mistaken) and Joy's decomposition does nicely select for the bits of needed form. It's good to hear from you Michael, that it correlates well with the Physics from your perspective.

    All the Best,

    Jonathan

    Hi Joy, all,

    Joy, you were reading my mind or something because I was going to followup to the email I sent you last night about going to S15. But you have said it here much better than I ever could. I see some progress now. Excellent!

    Best,

    Fred