• [deleted]

"I'm thinking now that what causes the strong correlations in Joy's construction is actually just the flatness of octonionic space. To an extent; we can speak of parallelizability as though parallelization has already taken place - as the property is inherent in S3 and S7 - in effect assuring certain alignments will be parallel. One could say that distant elements of space have the same flow directionality, which though invisible is nonetheless influential.

In this case parallelization then means 'all stretched out and laid flat.' Someone once said "the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain," and that almost seems to fit here. So with a parallelized S7 and/or S3 we have strong correlations, and a space that behaves as though it is Euclidean. Cool."

What if space doesn't reduce to algebra, but algebra reduces to space? We naturally want to start from a "starting point," or "singularity," but what if nature "starts" with the void?

"Flatness" and "non-locality" would start to make more sense. The only two potential attributes space has are inertia and infinity. The absolute and the infinite.

Hi Michael,

I can imagine a malevolent physics professor assigning a single exam problem:

"Provide a mathematical proof that spacetime is physically real."

There can be little doubt that most students will launch into an explanation of Minkowski space and general relativity. An honest grader will fail them all. The question is simply unfair.

Physicists assign to "proof" the least significant meaning that they can get away with. In formal logic however -- as in your applications of Godel's theorem to physics -- self consistent proofs made of logically closed judgments rest on axiomatic judgments that cannot be proven, judgments that cannot be closed.

A few years ago, I was scandalized by James Putnam's claim that Newton's equation f = ma is wrong. It clearly isn't wrong -- one unit of force is equal to one unit of mass multiplied by one unit of acceleration, which we can directly test. Later I came to understand that he means that "mass" is undefined in the equation; in this he is certainly mistaken -- the calculation of the values of the equation are independent of how "force" and "mass" are defined. We could just as well make it a theorem: f = m. That is, mass is defined to be the quantity for which f - m = 0. It is trivial to mathematically prove this relation. Likewise, it is trivial to mathematically prove the relation between mass and rest energy, E = m, whose algebraic reduction E - m = 0 as it happens is identical to the reduction of Newton's f - m. In other words, we don't lose any physical meaning in either Newton or Einstein by truncating those seminal equations to their essentials -- they mean the same thing. That is -- mass-energy at rest is of measure zero.

Measure zero is easily handled in mathematics, and impossible to handle in physics if the object is to "prove" something. The genius of Ernst Mach and Einstein gave us relative motion. Now we are free of imagining objects at rest; physically, there is no measure zero, no absolute nonlocal origin where motion ceases.

How does one describe that mathematically? -- only in a measurement function continuous from an initial condition. One does that by integration over an interval. There is no mathematical proof of integration -- the "a" (acceleration) term in Newton's equation, and the "c" (speed of light constant) in Einstein's, are the same term, as demonstrated by Einstein's principle of equivalence between inertial and gravitational mass. Local physics is incompatible with infinite acceleration, and there will never be a way to prove that mathematically, in principle. We can only appeal to symmetry in our mathematical picture, which is why I am glad you brought up Noether's theorem.

In the presenter Rob Thompson's penultimate slide and the one preceding, one is compelled to understand that the symmetry between points A and B is mediated by time alone (how the curve changes, i.e., accelerates) -- and that measurement is continuous on the interval {- oo, oo}. In Bell, that interval is taken to be the arbitrary distance between arbitrarily chosen A's and B's with no acceleration curve. Joy Christian realized that the correlation function between A and B is not arbitrary; that if one considers a 2-way measurement -- (4pi rotation vice 2pi) -- one will find a constant spacetime relation between A & B at any later time, any distance, just as Einstein realized in the equivalence principle. Why? Because the topological initial condition that supports the measurement of correlation between A & B, cannot be the Bell interval. It has to be the topology of parallelized S^7 -- which accommodates a measurement function continuous from the initial condition in a finite space, equivalent to the limit of a generalized acceleration curve.

That's all physics, sans philosophy, sans mathematical proof.

All best,

Tom

" ... what if nature "starts" with the void?"

The void is a singularity.

Hi Tom,

I think you've misinterpreted the real character of my application of Gödel's theorem: it is a mathematical proof about the limitations of using mathematics to *describe* causation in a particulate physical reality. One object = one maths term; N objects = N terms in a set (cardinality gives the natural numbers); one action in reality = one maths operation; actions in reality change the number of objects and their denotation in a mathematical theory gives arithmetic over the numbers of objects in the sets. This is just about the use of mathematical notation for discrete objects and object states being changed by causation. This is the bare minimum required to mathematically *describe* changes to particulate objects in a causal reality. Any physical theory of objects and causation will incorporate these features, otherwise it isn't describing reality. The moment you use maths to describe causal reality with discrete objects in it, then you are *bound* by this proof - there is no escape, and hand-waving doesn't make any difference.

Just as Gödel's proof was meta-mathematics, this is meta-science or meta-physics - analysis of the underlying process of constructing a scientific theory to find that there-exist bounds on the process. You're thinking about it as just being physics, it is the next level up, which is why physics cannot escape it. Denial is the only option; not wanting to believe it because it explicitly disproves the current paradigm. On the philosophy side it is worth noting that it explicitly disproves the Western philosophical view. The Eastern side of the world has a different philosophical view not bound by the Western paradigm.

I also appreciate the topological features of a parallelised S7, but that doesn't alter the fact that 11 won't go into 7. Furthermore, every other physicist with knowledge of particle physics and QFT knows that the minimum number of dimensions in an extra-dimensional theory is 11 - basically for the reasons I have given. To them, and me, the claim that physical space is just S7 is sans counting, and is trivially wrong as 11>7. Continuing to claim that Joy's work is dependent upon physical space bieng S7 - *not* true - is just a gift to quantum fundamentalists and leaves Joy's proof open to simple dismisal - not helpful!

Best,

Michael

Hi Michael,

I am finally having the brainstorm I have been longing for. I have the solution to our problem. The idea is to have our cakes and eat them too. I will be starting a new thread shortly. This one was excellent for posing the problem. In the new thread I will be proposing a solution, my way.

More soon,

Joy

Hi Michael,

Let me first state the problem as I see it. My framework assumes the physical space to be S3, which is nontrivially embedded in S7 [for example, as in equations (6.105) to (6.108) of my book].

You, on the other hand, start with S10 and arrive at the *conclusion* S3 x S7, where S3 is the uncompactified physical space and S7 is the compactified space of particle symmetries.

Until now I have been trying to pass a camel through the eye of a needle. I have been trying to embed my physical space S3 into your symmetry space S7. But that is just silly. Your S7 is a compactified space, whereas my S3 is a macroscopic space. The correct way to go about this is to recognize that your S3, as it appears in your product S3 x S7, is just one of the fibres of an uncompactified S7, just as in my framework, where this second S7 is a totally different S7 from your S7 of particle symmetries. So what we actually need is a S4 worth of S3-fibres, each of which being equipped with a compatified symmetry space S7. In other words, what we need is S4 worth of S3 x S7.

A natural way to get this is by considering the following fibration of S15:

S7 ---> S15 ---> S8.

Locally S15 is then a product space S8 x S7, where S7 is your compactified symmetry space. S8 in this product can now be further broken up into S1 x S7, where this S7 is an uncompactified bundle of 3-spheres (i.e., S4 worth of 3-spheres), and S1 may be taken as time.

Now before you start getting nervous about this picture, note that you can still have your S3 x S7 as a *conclusion*, but with a little difference. Your S3 is now just *one* of the fibres of my S7, which is locally a product of the form S3 x S4. This way we can have our cakes and eat them too. You can keep your particle symmetry space S7, and I can use the uncompactified S7 to derive quantum correlations for arbitrary quantum states, involving large dimensions and macroscopic distances.

Needless to add, S15 also has a compelling mathematical presence in the edifice of division algebras.

Best,

Joy

    Hi Michael,

    Yes, of course, I recognize how you're applying Godel's theorem -- my point was, and as you acknowledge, the theorem itself has nothing to do with physics. Physics can only be operationally self-consistent; math "things" and physical "things" are not identical. As Barrow (I think) put it, one does not add two cups of water to two cups of popcorn and get four cups of soggy popcorn.

    Yet, the operation -- 2 + 2 -- is the same in each case. Extending the analogy, suppose the water were to represent continuous functions and the popcorn discrete objects. In this respect, one would have to consider topology and the embedding theorems and forget about making algebra and its rules the mother of all mathematical physics. I expect that I have a much more compartmentalized way of thinking than any of y'all -- counting functions and measurement functions are distinctly different; one does not simply convert one into the other by calling a measurement function a counting function. (Transitivity plays a large role in the difference, but that is a longer discussion.)

    "Any physical theory of objects and causation will incorporate these features, otherwise it isn't describing reality."

    I have consistently made the point in these forums that science cannot *assume* reality, and at the same time expect to *discover* reality. Quantum mechanics does a great job of assuming reality; the standard model does a great job of assuming reality -- the models are the most successful in all of science, so why are we still wangling over "reality?" The issue -- you nailed it -- is causality:

    "The moment you use maths to describe causal reality with discrete objects in it, then you are *bound* by this proof - there is no escape, and hand-waving doesn't make any difference."

    To assume any specific causal model of definite structure IS hand waving. The same problem I had with Lisi's E8 model (I had long discussions with Ray Munroe on this subject), is the problem I have with this year's first prize essay winner -- which made me realize that it's not likely any FQXi judge of "foundational" research will touch what I do, with a 10-foot pole.

    "Just as Gödel's proof was meta-mathematics, this is meta-science or meta-physics - analysis of the underlying process of constructing a scientific theory to find that there-exist bounds on the process. You're thinking about it as just being physics, it is the next level up, which is why physics cannot escape it."

    I agree! Joy has his way to describe having the cake and also eating it. My own way is summed in two simple words: metaphysical realism. Any local realistic theory cannot be other than metaphysically real.

    The patently self organized universe does not demonstrably *require* a causal structure. As much as Joy may disdain my explanations, and lean to algebraic models, I find that simple connectivity and initial condition are entirely sufficient to assure the continuous, self reproducing and self limiting phenomena we observe. I consider "causal structure" an obsolete way of thinking of how nature works at its foundation, not new at all. I thought that George Ellis' essay would surely win first prize -- which would venerate relativistic dynamics with feedback at every scale; though Ellis doesn't go nearly far enough, it's a start. My own entry was always a long shot for obvious reasons, having challenged a member head-on (for which, of course, I harbor no regrets and which challenge still stands).

    "Continuing to claim that Joy's work is dependent upon physical space bieng S7 - *not* true - is just a gift to quantum fundamentalists and leaves Joy's proof open to simple dismisal - not helpful!"

    No one claimed that any measurement function is performed in any space except our four dimensions -- i.e., Minkowski space-time or the S^3 manifold. Which underscores that reality is what we are looking for, not what we assume.

    All best,

    Tom

    Hi Joy,

    Intriguing ... It is the reverse of the division I looked at for S15, and makes far more sense. The S1 of time divides off from S8 in a fairly natural looking way, and results in both of my physical spaces S3 and S7 as having the same status of being fibres:

    S15 -> S7*S8 -> S7*(S1*S7) -> S7*(S1*(S3*S4))

    The extra 4 dimensions are collected together in a macroscopic S4 basespace to give the rather strange feature of an apparently hidden space. I was adverse to the possibility of such a feature as it seemed a step too far, given everything else I am saying. With the required chiral mapping from S7 fibre of S15 to the S3 fibre within the S7 of the S8 basespace of S15, the S7 fibre would be split into S3*(S1*S3) and give the particles as topological defects as per my theory.

    So I'm seeing no conflict with the points where my theory connects with GR, the Standard Model and the particle table. At the conceptual mathematical level, as the last of the Hopf spheres S15 is the last word on the sphere nesting possibilities.

    Best,

    Michael

    Let's see..

    Isn't S15 associated with the Sedenions? Non-commutative, non-associative, but also non-alternative. Hmm... Does this perhaps guarantee that S15 represents a maximally uncorrelated space? This new thread looks very interesting, with a promising opening note. Maximally uncorrelated S15 may define an upper limit on indeterminacy or undecidability. I'll have to ponder this.

    Well; I've always thought possibilities must precede actualities. This may do just that.

    Regards,

    Jonathan

    For what it's worth;

    I think the idea of both a compact and an uncompactified S7 coexisting to produce both particle symmetries and correlations is brilliant. As you say, Joy; having the cake and eating it too is a realistic possibility here. I find this option easy to visualize, without a lot of force fitting needed.

    Michael's comment about S15 being the last word on sphere nesting is a key point, because it is one figure that implies the whole range of spheres (if I'm not mistaken) and Joy's decomposition does nicely select for the bits of needed form. It's good to hear from you Michael, that it correlates well with the Physics from your perspective.

    All the Best,

    Jonathan

    Hi Joy, all,

    Joy, you were reading my mind or something because I was going to followup to the email I sent you last night about going to S15. But you have said it here much better than I ever could. I see some progress now. Excellent!

    Best,

    Fred

    I should add this;

    When I wrote about the Octonions with Ray Munroe, I soundly rejected the Sedenions as being a curiosity mainly of interest to number theorists. But it appears I may have been a bit hasty, as most folks are with the Octonions - feeling they are more bother than they are worth. Of course; you can make Cantorian telescoping kites, but unless you are trying to navigate through hyperspace there is not much use for such a structure (tongue in cheek).

    I note that hypervolume is maximal for S4 - so if it is the macroscopic basespace (the hidden space), it is potentially quite macro indeed. It seemed a step too far for me too, Michael, adding extra spaces and jumping to S15 - but now not so far fetched (after Joy's clever elaboration). Perhaps the stone at first rejected will become the key stone.

    Regards,

    Jonathan

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    Tom,

    Me again.

    " physically, there is no measure zero, no absolute nonlocal origin where motion ceases."

    I still don't see how to explain centrifugal force otherwise. If something is spinning in a complete void, does it mean it cannot be spinning if there is no outside reference, therefore no centifugal force is being exerted, yet if one pinpoint of light were to appear and quantify this spin, then would the centrifugal effect suddenly come into play? It seems to me centrifugal force is due to spin relative to inertia. What is inertia, other than the spatial measure zero?

    "The void is a singularity."

    Not only is a singularity not zero, being one/single, but it is dynamic. Zero, being nothing, not only can't be something, it can't be dynamic, since it doesn't exist. This seems a bit like the ancient Romans not having a number zero, because the idea of a term to signify nothing didn't make sense to them, yet the Arabs found it very useful. Not to restart our most recent conversation about existence vs. non-existence, but as I made the point then, me getting a cup of tea doesn't physically exist, yet the fact it did exist recently is crucial to the existence of the cup sitting on my desk. I know physics is about what is, yet what is not is also important, but overlooked.

    Hi Michael, Fred, and Jonathan,

    Thank you for all your positive comments. This is of course just a start. The pot seems to hold water. Let us see whether it does hold water. At my end, there is nothing much for me to do as far as my framework for QT is concerned. In S15 I have S1 x S7 as a base space of the bundle, and that is sufficient for all my calculations to go through. The real work is for Michael to do. He has to check whether everything hangs together from the perspective of GR and Standard Model.

    Fred, thanks for your email yesterday. It probably played some kind of subconscious role in my "breakthrough."

    Below I am again attaching the paper on S15 I had attached in the previous long thread. It was just a passing thought for me at the time, but now S15 makes much more sense. In fact now I think Michael's starting point, namely S10 = S3 x S7, is totally ad hoc from the point of view of division algebras. S15, on the other hand, is the key fundamental space behind the algebra of octonions (cf. the first two pages of the attached paper).

    I also watched Niles Johnson's video lecture again before posting the above comments (cf. what he says around 17:20 onwards). Watch it again if you can, just for fun.

    Best,

    JoyAttachment #1: 1_1248.pdf

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    Thanks for the acknowledgement Joy,

    The way I see it is that at the most fundamental level Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about our mathematical rules that we have formulated to try to understand Nature. Take the void with the only property that it has is that it is a stage. Put a massless point entity in it. What are the mathematical properties of such a configuration? There are none that we can surmise easily. Perhaps the entity will fly off at infinite speed. Or perhaps it will just sit there. But we don't even know what that means (nor the infinite speed one) since there is nothing to relate it to. Nor can we have any concept of what dimension means. Now, put a whole bunch of identical massless point entities in the void with the proposition that they somehow interact with each other. What happens? We notice that some of our mathematical rules do describe the behavior of what is created by the interactions.

    The point here being is that Nature starts with the least amount of mathematical rules and then the rules of the normed division algebras become emergent for reasons that Joy and others have been saying for a proper description of physical behavior as we know it right now. What I have proposed above seems very simplistic but we would have to give the point entity some kind of property to produce hbar. I just don't know what that could be yet.

    Best,

    Fred

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    Fred,

    How about tension? If you have a dichotomy, say between equilibrium(the state of a massless point ) and infinity, the logical relationship is tension, which is potential energy and potential precedes actual...

    • [deleted]

    Rather than tension between a point and its opposite, it is between the point/equilibrium and field/infinity.

    Hi Joy, Jonathan, Fred and all

    I certainly wouldn't call my S1*S10 -> S1*S3*S7 ad hoc. It is uniquely the simplest scheme - as in what Occam would have chosen - that realises the (S0,S1,S3,S7) condition - the closed spaces in R,C,H,O - in an obviously physically causal way - as in Einstein's basis for choice. It comes from the observation - because I was looking after having just produced a proof that QT couldn't be fundamental - that a map from S7 (O) to S3 (H) has the character of the Higgs vacuum and breaks the equivalence of the 7 dimensions of S7 (O) to S3(H)*S3(H)*S1(C). It is then a homotopy group condition that if the spheres of this symmetry breaking that ends with S1 had been unified in a closed simply-connected space - e.g. a sphere SN - then chiral fermionic topological monopoles would be produced with the eigenvalues of the Standard Model particle table. Unifying S3 and S7 in S10 is the simplest option - a minimal unification of physics (MinUP) - where in GR a closed universe is necessarily cyclical in time, i.e. S1*S10. On the other hand, in a geometric or topological scheme S15 is the natural upper limit - a maximal unification of physics (MaxUP).

    For S10, inserting a hole into a sphere gives a generic "torus", which for N>2 has a chrial twist giving it the right character for the Higgs vacuum. This gives us our first condition to test against S15 as the physical twist of the S3*S7 Higgs vacuum can vaguely be thought of as a half twist, whereas a fibre-bundle has a full twist. My S7 corresponds to the S7 fibre of S15 which has the full twist of a fibre-bundle with respect to the S8 base pace, but this isn't directly what matters. Joy then has the S8 splitting into S1 and S7, where the S3 fibre of this S7 is my S3 of physical space. If the split S8 -> S1*S7 has Z2 options, then the Higgs vacuum map S7 to S3 could be of the correct form, i.e. not the fibre-bundle twist. It all depends upon the character of the split S8->S1*S7, which is essentially required to be the spacetime split (of spacetime algebra) in disguise.

    It should be noted that the spacetime split is easily disguised in H and O by switching from norm to square, as in both cases the real component squares positively whereas the remaining 3 or 7-vector is pure imaginary and squares negatively. Rick makes this shift in the D-Alembertian on page 7 of his essay, where after having made this change you technically no longer have a normed division algebra. For my S1*S3*S7 universe, I have to have the same change from norm to square (the spacetime split) on both H and O at the same time, i.e. the real parts of H and O coincide so that (1+3)+(1+7) is reduced to the required 1+3+7. The S8 split to S1*S7 would have to be of the same character, but where the starting space is S8, not just O.

    Further progress on either route (S1*S10 or S15) seems to require answering the somewhat non-trivial question: just what the hell is time?

    Best,

    Michael

    Hi Michael,

    A quick thought on S8 splitting into S1 and S7. Such a splitting was of course my thinking in terms of the non-relativistic GHZ model discussed in my book (e.g., in Chapter 6). In the light of your comments above it seems more appropriate to keep S8 intact and think of it in terms of Lorentz or relativistic invariance. So, presumably, a relativistic GHZ-type state would not require me to split S8 into S1 and S7 while modelling the state within my framework. Geometrically this would then fit in more naturally into the fibration

    S7 ---> S15 ---> S8.

    Best,

    Joy

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    Michael,

    Have you considered that while we perceive the effect of time as past to future sequence, the underlaying dynamic is the changing configuration of what is, that turns future into past. To wit, that the earth doesn't travel the fourth dimension from yesterday to tomorrow, but that tomorrow becomes yesterday because the earth rotates. This makes time a quite logical and basic effect of action, similar to temperature. What it does to theory and the perceptions of reality on which theory is based, is a whole other matter. Time is not a real vector, because duration doesn't transcend the present, but is the state of the present between the occurrence of events. Information is not only transitory, but the destruction of information is also information. "Can't have your cake and eat it too." Particles cannot be isolated from their actions, because there is no such thing as a dimensionless point in time, without freezing the action creating it. Which would equate to a temperature of absolute zero.

    Of course it solves the issue of multiworlds, as potential collapses into actual, rather then projecting from determined past into potential future, it is the actual, physical occurrence of events which determines the fate of the cat.

    We induce principles from the occurrence of events, future becoming past, then use them to deduce what will occur, projecting past onto future.