• Questioning the Foundations Essay Contest (2012)
  • There May Be a False Assumption in the Minkowskian Geometry That Led to Block Time, Which Disagrees With Quantum Theory on Whether the Future Already Exists - A Short Look Through the Clues About Tim

  • [deleted]

"But when one thinks of the present as enduring, with the ideal past emerging in its wake, as an unreal thing about which records exist in the present, and the ideal future as something that's anticipated in the present,"

Jonathan, Daryl,

Sometimes the best mysteries are when the answer is hiding in plain sight. It's not that the present "moves" from past to future, but that what exists changes, creating current configurations out of constant interaction. Not the earth traveling a fourth narrative dimension from yesterday to tomorrow, but tomorrow becoming yesterday because the earth rotates. The present is simply what physically exists and its action. We think of it as a dimensionless point between past and future, but 1) There is no such thing as a dimensionless point. Anything multiplied by zero is zero. It is a mathematical convenience. A dimensionless point is as real as a dimensionless apple. 2) Also if you were to truly freeze time, then the very action causing it would cease to exist. It wouldn't be a snapshot of reality, but a state of absolute zero. It's just that light is very fast and we need to sense it in very brief frames in order to see clearly.

Duration isn't a timeline external to the present, but what is present between measured events.

Clock rates vary because levels of activity vary in different environments. Gravity and velocity slow and warp atomic activity and structure, which explains both time dilation and length contraction. This argues for space as an inertial state as evidenced by centrifugal force, which is the effect of inertia on spin. That is another topic though.

A faster clock isn't traveling into the future more quickly, but into the past, since it is aging faster.

We are not building up an immutable past, as George Ellis and Joy Christian have argued, because with every passing moment, prior events recede ever further into the past, altering any conscious or physical record of them. Remember reality is relativistic! There is no objective perspective, so the past is as much a construct of subjective perspective as any currently observed event! So adding events to the past doesn't push the present into the future. It pushes prior events further into the past!

This argument against simultaneity because perception is relative is nonsense. One might as well argue that since the people of Kansas City learned of Lincoln's death before the people of San Francisco, he must have died earlier from the perspective of KC. All observations are in the future of the event.

That damn cat is not both dead and alive, because it is the collapse of future probabilities which yields current actualities. It is only due to QM using an external timeline that a determined past is projected onto a probabilistic future. While the laws governing any outcome might well be exact(or they wouldn't be laws), the total input into any event cannot be known prior to the event, because the lightcone of input is only completed by the event.

As you read these words, you progress from prior to succeeding words. Much as the hands of a clock move from one mark to the next. That linear narrative is the basis of our intellect. From the dawn of life and mobile organisms, we move along a singular path, encountering sequences of events. Does that mean sequence is fundamental, or only fundamental to perception? Does yesterday cause today? Or is that as sensible as saying one rung on a ladder causes the next? Now my typing on these keys does cause letters to appear on the screen, because there is a definitive transfer of energy from the action to the consequence. Just as it is the energy of the sun shining on a rotating planet which causes the sequence of events called "days." The future is not where the information points, which is only referential to the point of perception, but where the energy goes.

We create knowledge inductively, future becoming past, but use it deductively, projecting the past onto the future.

Hello John,

I have to say - someone who thinks they have an answer no-one else could find might not have understood the question.

The bits of your post that aren't more suited to a poetry site include a point I refuted two weeks ago in a clear way. You then changed what you were saying completely, but have now gone back to your original approach, and have posted it on my page again. I'll refute the point again, but once I've done that I want no more discussion - thanks for communicating anyway, and I'll wish you all the best.

You said yesterday, and two weeks ago, that local time rates are caused by atomic activity, leading to metabolic rate differences among observers. If you knew the physics you'd know that doesn't fit the facts. The clues to the time puzzle are very specific, and anything that doesn't fit them simply doesn't fit them. I pointed out that two observers moving in opposite directions in a symmetrical way each see the other slowed down, but it's impossible for each to have a slower metabolism than the other. You then wrote back to say that that was caused by a blueshift - you must surely have meant redshift. But you've now returned to your original position. Better to discuss this with someone else.

Best wishes, Jonathan

    • [deleted]

    Jonathan,

    I'm sorry if I missed your rebuttal. Your last comment in the previous discussion thread was;

    "Author Jonathan Kerr replied on Aug. 7, 2012 @ 12:57 GMT

    Thank you, yes, sorry - there's clearly more to your view than my initial picture of it. Will look some more I have time, rushing to get on a plane tomorrow.

    Best wishes, Jonathan"

    Since you didn't specify whether the observers were moving toward, or away from each other, only that they were passing, I assumed you meant toward each other.

    Apparently I caused some offense and will not bother you further.

    • [deleted]

    Further note; Yes, you did say "slowed down," so I should have inferred redshift.

    Yes you switched to doppler effect, it was about time dilation. I didn't have time to explain, and I don't now. No offense and best of luck. And doesn't time go fast when you're on this site, I thought it was two weeks ago... best wishes, JK

    Well, looking at it, there clearly was more misunderstanding than I thought, so sorry. I meant two observers passing each other, moving in opposite directions. There's only time dilation at that point, and each sees the other slowed down. But I can see that it could be taken as being about the Doppeler effect. JK

      • [deleted]

      Jonathan,

      I wasn't trying to give offense and if I may seem presumptuous, it is because I do see it as an important point. Having been flipping through the conversations, it seemed as though your discussion with Daryl was circling around this point and I thought I'd offer it up again, since you hadn't seemed to have digested it the first time. Your response though, to take a minor feature of the larger argument, assert it's wrong without specifying why, than dismiss the entire argument on that basis, is the usual reaction I get from those who think there are no fundamental issues to discuss and only another particle, field, dimension, epicycle, string, membrane, energy, etc. is all that is required. Since you see no reason to enlighten me further and I obviously don't impress you, further conversation would seem fruitless.

      I would add though, that the doppler effect is one of those issues physicists like to use, then deny the implications. Specifically, if cosmic redshift is due to recession of the sources, it is doppler effect, but than to say that since we appear to be at the center of this expansion, it must be an expansion of space, not an expansion in space doesn't make sense, because a constant speed of light is still used.

      If two galaxies are x lightyears apart and we say that after y billion years, they will be 2x lightyears apart, that uses the speed of light as a stable measure of space. How can there be a stable measure of space, if space is expanding? The train moving away down the track doesn't stretch the track, but the train moves along that stable distance. The same applies to galaxies. If they are moving away in stable units of distance, how can it be said that space is expanding? Of course, when I raise this point, the usual reaction is similar to your response; I'm too naive to understand and the enlightened minds cannot be bothered to cure my stupidity.

      That's why I try not to bother the believers and only discuss such issues with skeptics.

      Regards,

      john

      Hello John,

      it seems to me you're not interested in a real discussion, that's why I've given up trying. You say:

      "Your response though, to take a minor feature of the larger argument, assert it's wrong without specifying why, than dismiss the entire argument on that basis, is the usual reaction I get from those who think there are no fundamental issues to discuss".

      But what really happens is very different. When I try to zoom in on one area of what you say, and do what we do in physics, ie try to pin something down, and start the laborious and time-consuming task of showing you what no-one else may bother to tell you - that there is nothing substantial underneath this or that idea - then instead of taking my points head on, you dance away somewhere else. You've done this several times. Not interested in really pinning anything down, but without that it's mostly poetry, and not the best I've read.

      Your idea about metabolism I've shown to be wrong, in a clear, specific way. If the clues were such that that was possible, it would be simple, and by about 1940 there would have been a theory of that kind, with many adherents. There isn't because that idea doesn't work, nor do many others of yours. I've shown you exactly why with one, but you don't want to know. Perhaps it's more fun thinking the ideas work. Well, I've tried.

      Best wishes, Jonathan

        • [deleted]

        Jonathan,

        The story of the twins is analogy. Everything is built up from quantum processes, from chemistry, to biology, to mechanical clocks, so if the quantum rate runs faster, as on gps satellites, then everything emerging from these processes runs faster as well, including metabolism, thus one twin ages faster.

        I'm just not sure how my use of a common analogy disproves the observation that tomorrow becomes yesterday because the earth rotates.

        If the twins pass each other in the street, walking in opposite directions, then as they pass, each is seeing the other in slow motion. That isn't consistent with your explanation. If the clues were such that they fitted your explanation, it would be a much, much easier puzzle. Now let's leave it, best wishes, JK

          • [deleted]

          Jonathan,

          No problem. Life is very complex and we all have varied and varying physical perspectives, both spatial and temporal, as well as the ideas to try to make sense of them.

          • [deleted]

          I agree that one must define Time in terms of motion. Additionally, it seems reasonable to assume that similar physical results must have, at their base, common causes. That is the path I've taken in an attempt to determine the nature of Time. So, Gravitational Redshift, Cosmological Redshift, and doppler shifts must result from the same physical cause. To that end I prefer to look at the nature of spacetime for an answer. Since red and blue doppler shifts involve a change of wavelength caused by a position change of the emitter relative to the receiver, I conclude that some manifestation of spacetime must induce a change in wavelength for the other two types. To that end one very convenient model can be postulated wherein spacetime density increases in the presence of matter (along with a time change) For an emitted light ray leaving a gravitational field its wavelength increases as it exits the field(and enters less dense spacetime) The reverse obviously occurs when the ray enters the field. Time must then be a consequence of the relative spacetime density.

          If this is valid then motion must be related to the interaction of matter with its local space. Acceleration must have the same common origin and the same common result in interactions with local spacetime. That is, if gravitational acceleration is caused by an increased spacetime density in the direction of motion, then this also implies that an accelerated object must induce an increased spacetime density ahead of itself.

          This comes with a lot of ramifications for Physics! Mach's Principle as an explanation for inertia is only the first Foundational Leg to collapse. But, if that goes then what must be concluded about the FLRW model? Matter here cannot have any gravitationaal influence across the Universe!

          As for the two apparent types of time, the entire Universe is in motion and matter densities (and spacetime densities) vary throughout the Universe depending whether one considers a perspective from the point of view inside a Void or within the bound nature of Matter Filaments. Time must be Relative according to ones' motion or relationship to local matter.

          Hello Lloyd,

          This isn't meant to be a platform for trotting out our theories, though you'd never know from looking at this site. For that reason, in my essay I've just said that I think we need a new interpretation for SR, and set out a rational argument that the existing one doesn't fit what we observe.

          So I'm not going into discussions on theories that land here, unless the discussion relates to the general one. But I'll throw my Kent Brockman two cents back, in case it's of interest.

          To me, you start with a principle that can be shown to be wrong, and then you don't go by it anyway. You say that similar results must have similar causes, and then you say that therefore all wavelength shifts must be caused by the same thing. But there are several kinds of redshift that are well understood, and they have different causes. There's the Doppler shift, refraction shift, and bremstrallung, for instance. We know their causes, and they're all different. So the general principle you start with doesn't look too good.

          But then you don't go by it anyway, which actually helps. You then decide that the gravitational shift, because it must have the same cause as the Doppler shift, is caused by differences to the 'density of spacetime' - this is a completely different cause from that of the Doppler shift.

          And it goes on - you don't define spacetime, but you need to not only because its density changes in your picture, but also because it has time in it, and you get time out of it the other side as well - "Time must then be a consequence of the relative spacetime density." So you need to define it early on.

          If you want to talk about the general subject matter then do, you haven't so far.

          Best wishes, Jonathan

          Thanks Daryl,

          sorry so late in replying. It has been a pleasure to discuss these things with you (mainly on Edwin Klingman's page), and I do respect your opinion, and your approach to physics in general.

          Warm regards, Jonathan

          • [deleted]

          Superdeterminism is delete all difference between past, present, future.

          See my analogy book as Parmenides

          PS I don't want you to feel you can't answer those points, I just mean we should keep to the general discussion generally... JK

          I guessed that this post had been sent to more than one essay page, and found that it had. I also have trouble understanding it.

          But best wishes, JK

          • [deleted]

          Jonathan

          What is your attitude to Gerard 't Hooft

          Discreteness and Determinism in Superstrings ?

          arXiv:1207.3612 (replaced) [pdf, ps, other]

          Hello Yuri,

          Thank you, it's fascinating, I'll read it again when I can. But ultimately the cellular automaton interpretation of quantum theory is still a mathematical interpretation, and I'm interested in truly conceptual interpretations, as I see the problems before us as conceptual ones. (John Wheeler thought the same - when asked what the best hope of progress for QT was, he said finding a conceptual basis from which QT could be rederived). And because an interpretation is needed for SR as well as QT, and ideally one should be found that reduces the problems of both, it seems that something very simple is needed. To me, although the CA interpretation is very simple mathematically, it's too complicated conceptually.

          Also, I don't agree with his attempt to get out of non-locality. David Albert has argued that Bell's work means non-locality in inevitable in any interpretation of QT, not just in a hidden variables interpretation.

          Best wishes, Jonathan

          • [deleted]

          Have you read my essay?

          http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1413