Dear Ken,

The Lagrangian schema has some advantages over the Newtonian schema, or in general over the dynamical system schema. Your essay pointed out this very well, with important insights in the problems of quantum mechanics. I can see how well this relates to your previous essays. My own view on quantum mechanics is again, in my opinion, close to yours (as in the essays on the nature of time). But instead of Newtonian vs. Lagrangian, I identify the problem as local vs. global (please see these slides of a talk I will give in few days, "Global and local aspects of causality").

The importance of the Lagrangian view is related also with the problem of singularities in general relativity, which is in fact the subject of my essay. As you know, the action principle is given by the Lagrangian density

[math]R\sqrt{-\det g}[/math]

There are singularities for which this Lagrangian density remains smooth or even analytic. It is customary to consider only R, and view the square root of the metric as auxiliary. In fact, from geometric viewpoint, the natural quantity should contain it too, since we don't integrate scalars, but densities or 4-forms. For such singularities R may be divergent, but metric's determinant vanishes and compensates this. This allows the writing of a densitized version of Einstein's equation, whose terms remain smooth at singularities. I explain this in my essay, "Did God Divide by Zero?", and references therein. So we can see that the Lagrangian view is superior in GR too, at least in the case of singularities.

Best wishes,

Cristi Stoica

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    • Post #124

    MAX PLANK:

    An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents; it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out and that the growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the beginning.

    Last comment. Janko Kolkata mentioned, Feynman's book "QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter". If you haven't read this particular version of Feynman's work, I recommend it. There is something about him taking the arguments for the vernacular that adds a slightly different, non-standard perspective on that is missed in some summaries of his work.

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    • Post #126

    Sergey G Fedosin is bombing entrants' boards with the same "why your rating has dropped" message. They are all dated Oct. 4... same message.

    WTH? I've seen one fine essay drop 89 (eighty-nine) positions, in "Community Rating" in the past 24 hours, and "Sergey's note" came BEFORE it plummeted. Hmm.

    The vote/scaling of this contest is quite nebulous.

    "Hackers Rule!", I suppose!

    Well??? What else is one to think? The General Public is... Watching...

    Dean,

    Thank you very much for telling me about your interesting reaction to my essay; I was quite pleased to hear about it! Getting into a true LSU-mindset is not easy, even for physicists who work with Lagrangians every day. So I'm not at all concerned that you're not sold on the LSU ; the goal of my essay was primarily to raise awareness about the NSU/LSU distinction, and it sounds like I may have succeeded (in your case, anyway).

    This distinction has been the biggest problem in communicating my research; hardly anyone seems to have separate mental frameworks for LSU vs. NSU. Several times people have told me that one of my (LSU-style) talks made perfect sense at the time, but later, when they think about it on their own, it just seems crazy. After drilling down for the root cause, I finally figured it out: these people were instinctively retreating to an NSU-mindset without realizing it. (And without realizing that they were briefly thinking in an LSU-mindset in the first place.)

    On the technical front, the question of what might be considered a correlation-destroying measurement in different contexts is more carefully addressed in my previous essay contest entry. I agree that this issue makes more sense when viewed from a global, LSU perspective; what matters is not merely the beamsplitter, but also what happens to the beams after they pass through.

    Also, thanks for the thought about Cooper pairs; I'm building up a for-general-audience-consumption argument concerning covalent bonds that is probably getting at the same point you're making here.

    Thanks again; your comment made my day!

    Ken

    PS: Yes, QED is a great book. In fact, the biggest red flag in this whole research program is that I'm trying to solve a problem that Feynman himself attempted and failed (to come up with a realistic, physical, interpretation of his path-integral mathematics). But I'm getting more and more convinced that there *is* a solution, one that Feynman would have quite liked.

    Janko,

    Great question! Yes, when thinking in terms of the LSU, it would certainly be useful to be able to mentally picture Lagrangian densities. But fair warning: the goal is not to translate them back into NSU-style quantities, the goal is to imagine them as fundamental in their own right. So don't go hunting for dynamic entities to use as an analog.

    My main advice here is to focus on the fields that make up the Lagrangian, not the Lagrangian itself. Those fields are much easier to picture, although for the LSU it's crucial you think of them as 4D fields spanning space and time, not the NSU version of 3D fields that obey some dynamic equations. Still, in some limit, these two versions yield approximately the same result.

    The uncertainty principle looks quite natural from an LSU perspective, as I outlined in this essay. As far as "deriving" the HUP... well, you need to derive it *from* something, and that something is still under-development. But I do see how to use it further; for details look into reference [7].

    Cramer's Transactional Interpretation was my first exposure to retrocausal solutions to quantum problems, and has certainly been influential in my thinking on the topic. But I don't think it exactly falls in the LSU camp, and still has quite a bit of NSU-style thinking built into it. (Not to mention that it fails for multiple particles.) I think Mark Hadley is more on the right track.

    Best,

    Ken

    Hello Cristi,

    Thanks for the slides and the interesting point about singularities! I found both quite interesting. Yes, we're almost coming from the same perspective; have you tried extending your quantum ideas to multi-particle problems? I find that one can sweep a lot of the "weirdness" under the rug if one only deals with single-particle situations.

    As far as the singularities go, I'm still concerned that the fields themselves diverge, even if the Lagrangian density doesn't. I'll have to study your essay and papers and see exactly how it works, but you're right: this might be a nice selling-point for the LSU.

    All the best,

    Ken

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    • Post #130

    Ken,

    I enjoyed your essay but have one question. You stated:

    "But it also wasn't easy to fight other anthropocentric tendencies, and

    yet the Earth isn't the center of the universe, our sun is just one of many, there is no preferred frame of reference."

    When you make a measure of anything at all, "you" DO pick a preferred frame of reference - "you" have to! Therefore, your act of measure imposes BOTH the current boundaries and those that "you" will set in the future. YOU pick the boundaries... and so does every form of life that measures. I see no way out of this apparent fact that a Lagrangian approach would "not" appear to resolve? This fact is why my essay builds a physical model surrounding the physical information that life accumulates (and has past accumulated and sorted out) to makes the current measure ... a measure by a living creature provides the information, and, since we all have our own views regarding the actual measure we must admit that we all possess a different view on what was actually measured. It is only by correlating all of our measures (of the 4D universe that provides all the physical measures) that we can find our common information threads....

    Regards,

    Tony DiCarlo

    Hello Thinkers,

    Friedemann Freund seems a very intresting person in all case. I have seen his profil on the net.He works at Nasa ames research center it seems to me, he has chance :) If I had several tools, I could imrpove my theoretical models and furthermore I could test also my inventions. I have found an intresting add of systems for a kind of perpetual motion. I have add several energetical concepts. I work in fact with the photosynthesis more the potential and kinetic energy more several properties of liquids for example. The concept is ok but can be optimized. I have also optimized a natural motor.I have add the vegetal multiplication with hormons more the acceleration of the thermophyl phasis....it is relevant, we can utilize the methan CH4,the heat , the pression....the problem was the lack of biomass in a small volume,it is not a probelm when the "totipotence" is inserted.

    Regards

    Still me. I didn't know the ames nasa center, the net platfrom is very intresting.The kepple mission is very relevant.It is fascinating the discovery of these planets orbiting around stars. It is frustrating also our limitations due to space between cosmological spheres and the limited velocities of spaceships.

    Our systems of propulsion are weak and young in fact. I have a real relevance about the limitations due to c. We can affirm that we cannot pass above c, it is logic, if not we cannot perceice the mass. Now we can affirm also that this law is for bosons and their linear informations. But the fermions, them, are the mass and this mass is stabilized in space. So the relevance is when we consider that m turns in opposite sense than hv. This implies that the fermions, them, are perhaps not under the law of c , the special relativity. So in this line of reasoning, all mass can pass above c. The tachyons cannot be bosons. only the fermions can pass above c. It permits to travel more easily inside our Universal Sphere. The acceleration must be made by acceptable steps. The constant velocity is not a probelm even at 1000 c for example. The space between cosmological spheres so are not a probelm.We can so travel inside our milky way and even between galaxies. Of course our technologies are young, but the concept is possible. The engeniering that said is very complex !

    We are travellers from Stars, we are Jedis of the SPHERE.:)fascinating and frustrating.

    Dear Ken Wharton,

    Nature of time in performing finite sets of arithmetic or logical operations with a device differs from the nature of time in that time emerges with the dynamics of the matters of infinite universe.

    Though the Tetrahedral-brane scenario and the holarchy of universe described in Coherently-cyclic cluster-matter paradigm of universe, quantizes the universe at its present state; the infinite eigen-rotational cycles of universe describes it in infinity that is not representational as quantum computer, in that string-matter continuum is descriptive for the eternity of the universe.

    In this paradigm, as the Lagrangian of a tetrahedral-brane in a holon is relativistic with the other tetrahedral-branes of that holon, computability of its constructs is limited within the holarchy of a holon. Thus for an observer, only the observable universe may be expressional as a computer of the present and not for the future or past, as the nature of time described in this paradigm differs. Thus the present universe does not compute for future and the future is spontaneous, in that variability of chemical potentials in localities has vital role in determining the future states of the universe.

    With best wishes

    Jayakar

    8 days later

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    • Post #134

    Hi Ken,

    Thank you for watching my slides. I'm back now. You asked:

    "have you tried extending your quantum ideas to multi-particle problems?"

    I did not use the hypothesis that there is only one particle. The sheaf approach works with multi-particle problems too. And the entanglement examples are about two particles.

    "I'm still concerned that the fields themselves diverge, even if the Lagrangian density doesn't. I'll have to study your essay and papers and see exactly how it works"

    I was concerned about this too. By using appropriate fields, you can rewrite the equations. The resulting equations are equivalent to the usual ones, but in addition remain smooth at singularities, but I'll let you see for yourself.

    Best regards,

    Cristi Stoica

    8 days later

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    • Post #135

    Dear Ken,

    Please see the absolute truth of zero = i = infinity . Current limitation of our computers is the unhandled exception of divide by zero, which in fact is the normalcy in the universe. So to your point universe is not like our conventional computers as of date, may be when humans have mastered quantum computing by unleashing the power of divide by zero will the human race fully understand the true nature of the universe.

    Love,

    Sridattadev.

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    • Post #136

    Ken,

    The contest did not solve the problem. I don't refer to FQXi4, also not to the friends of the "as if" in 1925 but to the question put in 1784 by by Lagrange who was the successor of Euler at the Academia in Berlin: (my truncating translation): Mathematics is using infinitely large and infinitely small quantities which are considered self-contradictory by some experts. The Academia asks for an explanation how so many correct Saetze can be derived from a contradictory assumption. It desires a principle that can substitute infinity in a clear and concise mathematical manner.

    It is well known that Lagrange did not accept Fourier's harmonic analysis. Can we suspect that the line of reasoning by Lagrange, Hamilton, Hilbert, ..., Feynman, and you suffers from a missing insight? I largely agree with Robert McEachern: "Do not confuse mathematics for physics".

    We are doomed to see the world an open system that evades complete mathematical description.

    Eckard

      11 days later

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      • Post #137

      Ken,

      Having put your point of view in question I am still hoping for your defense. After the number of post remained at 138 for quite a while, it even dropped to 137. Since there is little spam, it would perhaps be better if deleted posts were nonetheless counted. This post is #138 again. That number might not necessarily signal to you that something has changed, given you did not cause the deletion of an inappropriate post yourself.

      Eckard

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      • Post #138

      Prof. Wharton:

      You write that the universe began in a special state of low-entropy order. Victor Stenger (U. of Hawaii) instead argues that the universe began in a state of maximum entropy and its subsequent expansion has enabled its entropy to continually increase. See, e.g., "The Universe: the ultimate free lunch", Eur. J. Phys. 11 (1990) 236-243, available here.

      I'm a layman so I don't know how accepted his view is.

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