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  • Post #30

Jonathon

A thought about your mention of harmonic tunings. Apart from such dada-esque or musique concrete-like musical forms such as Chinese Opera of the Japanese GaGaKu virtually all the world's music conforms to the same mathematical structure. Just about every culture we discover has one common musical element, the pentatonic scale. From this basic scale all of the various music systems develop.

There is only one pentatonic scale and it is defined by the overtone numbers that comprise it. These are 1, 9, 5, 3, 27.

The difference between the East Indian scale and the western scale is the major sixth. The western scale is a reciprocal scale (I explain this in my Structural Resonance papers) and the major sixth is the ratio is 5/3. The Eat Indian scale which is not reciprocal and usually sounds over a drone requires the major sixth ratio to be 27/16. Apart from that the scales are identical but their functions are quite different.

Tom

Tom,

I sent you an email... please let me know if you don't receive it. Take care,

Ben

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  • Post #32

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for leaving a comment on my page, and thanks for sharing your essay. I think that your essay is quite awesome, because I do love music a lot and the essay taught me some things.

I was reading a bit about your work called The Legend of the Rood, and that got me reading about a whole lot of other related things, so thanks for that too. It's not really related, but I have to ask: have you read the books in the series A Song of Ice and Fire by GRR Martin? Aside from the light dusting of fantasy, it's a pretty fascinating interpretation of what medieval life might have been like. As a bonus for me, his universe also includes songs and music. :)

- Shawn

    P.S. Can you tell me a little about your encryption method?

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    • Post #34

    Dear Maestro Thomas

    Welcome back this year to the fqxi essay contest!

    Thank you for an exceptionally well-written and interesting essay. Your observations about vibrations and resonance by, in and outside of instruments made me realize how much I am missing. I love music and have made some 70 paintings in a series called Painting the Music made whilst listening to and reacting to the compositions of various composers. But it was music mostly heard through headphones. I can imagine what I have missed by not being inside an acoustically perfect space.

    Standing waves are not only important in acoustics of course. Whether within laser cavities or in models of the atom conceived as a standing wave, they are very important in physics. The late Gabriel LaFrenier speculated that matter is made up of standing waves - a new take on resolving the particle-wave dichotomy.

    I hope you will read and rate my fqxi essay Fix Physics!

    Wishing you all the best

    Vladimir

    Shawn

    Unfortunately my Web page is rather sparse as I only created it because the corporations and institutions that I have been in touch with expect a Web page. I am now in the process of creating a new Web page that will be more complete. I will put some of my music, including some from the Legend of the Rood on it.

    Writing the Rood was a delightful experience as it gave the opportunity to write true linear counterpoint, that is, counterpoint with no harmonic structure as harmony did not come into existence for many years. The play is Cornish Miracle play that survived intact and even had stage directions and a list of how much the various actors were paid. It is very anachronistic play and is quite funny.

    I have not read the book you suggest but will search it out. I can recommend two wonderful books about the Middle Ages. One is 'Byzantine and Medieval Music Volune 2' by Romain Goldron. It can be found here; http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/author/romain-goldron.

    The other is 'Notre Dame of Paris' by Allan Tempko.

    Both authors really loved the Middle Ages and wrote wonderfully about them. Tempko's book is a history of the building of the Cathedral of Notre Dame and provides a great look at life in Paris of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. This cathedral was the first truly Gothic Cathedral and its construction makes for some real drama.

    Goldon's book is a lovely description of the development of music from the Byzantine period through Perotinus and the Notre Dame school. He ends his book with this quite form Thomas Aquinas written in the thirteen the century:

    "It is then clear that music is the most noble of human sciences, and each person must study it in preference to all others, for, apart from music, no science has ever been bold enough to enter the portals of the Church."

    I will discuss the encryption system in another posting.

    Tom Wagner

    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for the thoughtful comments on my essay forum. It took me a while to find them, and I have not written a reply yet, but I expect to do so in the next day or so. I like the idea that gravity is not a force, as such. This would seem to fit well with a topological approach to particle mass like that in Michael Goodband's essay. But great food for thought either way.

    Thanks also for the detailed replies to my comments on your forum above. I like what was said there too. More detailed comments when there is time.

    All the Best,

    Jonathan

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    • Post #37

    Tom, as a musician myself in my other life, and author of a popular recording book ("Guerrilla Home Recording"), I was naturally attracted to your essay. While I don't think you're focusing on the most foundational issues in physics, your essay is fascinating and enlightening nonetheless, and touches on a lot of mysteries in acoustics. For example, I've always wondered why it's impossible to get a loudspeaker playing a recording of speech to sound like a person in the room talking. Or, what it would take to get a recorded mix, played on speakers or headphones, to truly sound like a live performance. Even from a block away, you can always tell whether the music coming from a venue is live or recorded. In college, I thought the solution would involve starting the signal chain with a "digital microphone" that operated similar to the human cochlea, until someone pointed out that turning such signals back into analog sound would necessitate basically simulating the human brain.

    Anyway, thanks for submitting your essay; I'll surely re-read it when things settle down. You deserve to be doing better in the competition. Best of luck.

      Dear Tom,

      It's refreshing to read and consider an essay that hits so close to home in the human aspects of experience. I have a background in music also and am going to give your essay a good rating. Maybe you'll consider my essay that has very much to do with waves (EM waves) and the dispersion and Doppler processes which conspire to produce the relativistic effects.

      I think you could have said much more about the comparative staleness of equal tempered scales. In Europe, especially, there is a bit of a revival in rebuilding cathedral organs that have their original tempered tunings. The experience of hearing one brings the music alive gives a unique character to each and every musical piece.

      It's unfortunately seldom expressed or possibly even little recognized that excellent performers modify the pitch of the tones of the scale they are playing or singing to suit the harmonic context of the passage. That recognition of artistry could and should be taught.

      With best wishes,

      Steve

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        • Post #39

        Dear Thomas

        Music in Terms of Science

        James Q. Feng arXiv:1209.3767 [pdf, other]

        I think interesting for you.

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        • Post #40

        Steve

        Thank you for the very nice post. I shall certainly read your essay.

        I did not go further into equal tempered tuning as 25,000 characters do not go very far. The tempered scale is the bane of music today. Technology should have completely eradicated it but yet it persists like a summer cold. Most Digital Audio Workstations (DAWs) are set to the tempered scale and consider natural tuning as de-tuning. Paul Hindemith felt that our toleration of tempered tuning is likened to our ability to withstand pain.

        Music groups that can affect the tuning never play in the equal tempered system. They always make precise, discrete shifts in certain chords or intervals to keep the music being played in correct tune. This shift is always an interval, called a comma, equal, to 81\80. This known as the Syntonic Comma, sometimes referred to as the Dydimus Comma. Theorists usually say it is about 21.51 cents. This comma is equal to exactly 1.0125. Defining it in the tonometric system is as useless as it is absurd.

        Some years ago I scored a film on Ancient Peru and did some research at the Museum of Natural History in New York. Junius Byrd, the curator, gave me a book about the old Quechua instruments, especially the pan flutes. These people made remarkable instruments. One set of pan flutes had two pipes that were pitched very close together. The researcher gave the interval between the two pipes as about 22 cents. He never realized that the actual interval had to have been the Dydimus comma and that would indicate that ancient Peruvian music had an harmonic structure.

        Is there any more dreadful sound in the world than a romantic organ tuned to the tempered scale? (Except perhaps those idiotic tympani rolls tacked onto the end of the Romeo and Juliet Overture).

        The adaptation of the tempered system is quite recent. Because a set of pieces by Bach have the unfortunate title of Well-Tempered Clavichord many people wrongly think that Bach was the initiator of the tempered system. Bach did not invent nor did he use the tempered scale. The Well-Tempered Clavichord is two sets of preludes and fugues that are written in all twelve keys. Each piece is quite tonal and harpsichord players tune their instruments to the key of each just as they did in the time of Bach.

        While notions of isometric tuning go back to the ancient Greeks the notion of the tempered scale is usually attributed to Andreas Werkmeister, a contemporary of Newton. The scale came into common usage toward the end of the nineteenth century. It was popularized by British organ makers as the tempered scale gives the illusion of being able to modulate to any key.

        We can only hope that both the tempered scale and the tonometric system, like old soldiers, will soon simply fade away.

        Tom Wagner

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        • Post #41

        Karl

        Thank you for that fine post.

        I feel that music is (or should be) one of the foundations of physics. Quantum physicists are fond of saying that when you study quantum physics you are studying music. The problem is that most physicists do not have a true understanding of real music theory. They shouldn't feel too badly as most musicians don't either. The worst offenders in the wrong ideas of musical theory are the university music departments. Igor Stravinsky once said of university music theory departments that they are places where professors of counterpoint grope forever in regions of outer darkness. That may be a bit harsh but then Stravinsky was never known for being a gentle spirit.

        I am finally getting physicists and non-physicists alike interested in these ideas. When I first wrote the Structural Resonance papers I got some heavy resistance. Fortunately I had for a friend and mentor Dr. Frederick Seitz, Fred was a former president of the National Science Foundation. He was president of the Rockefeller University when I met him. He was also on the Boards of Directors of more companies that you could shake a stick at. His help and encouragement made it all happen.

        I have most of the tools I need and some of the coding written to try and be able to actually record and reproduce truly real sound. How these ideas interface with physics will need input from physicists but the postings I have been getting are very encouraging.

        Tom

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        • Post #42

        Karl

        Thank you for that fine post.

        I feel that music is (or should be) one of the foundations of physics. Quantum physicists are fond of saying that when you study quantum physics you are studying music. The problem is that most physicists do not have a true understanding of real music theory. They shouldn't feel too badly as most musicians don't either. The worst offenders in the wrong ideas of musical theory are the university music departments. Igor Stravinsky once said of university music theory departments that they are places where professors of counterpoint grope forever in regions of outer darkness. That may be a bit harsh but then Stravinsky was never known for being a gentle spirit.

        I am finally getting physicists and non-physicists alike interested in these ideas. When I first wrote the Structural Resonance papers I got some heavy resistance. Fortunately I had for a friend and mentor Dr. Frederick Seitz, Fred was a former president of the National Science Foundation. He was president of the Rockefeller University when I met him. He was also on the Boards of Directors of more companies that you could shake a stick at. His help and encouragement made it all happen.

        I have most of the tools I need and some of the coding written to try and be able to actually record and reproduce truly real sound. How these ideas interface with physics will need input from physicists but the postings I have been getting are very encouraging.

        Tom

        If you do not understand why your rating dropped down. As I found ratings in the contest are calculated in the next way. Suppose your rating is [math]R_1 [/math] and [math]N_1 [/math] was the quantity of people which gave you ratings. Then you have [math]S_1=R_1 N_1 [/math] of points. After it anyone give you [math]dS [/math] of points so you have [math]S_2=S_1+ dS [/math] of points and [math]N_2=N_1+1 [/math] is the common quantity of the people which gave you ratings. At the same time you will have [math]S_2=R_2 N_2 [/math] of points. From here, if you want to be R2 > R1 there must be: [math]S_2/ N_2>S_1/ N_1 [/math] or [math] (S_1+ dS) / (N_1+1) >S_1/ N_1 [/math] or [math] dS >S_1/ N_1 =R_1[/math] In other words if you want to increase rating of anyone you must give him more points [math]dS [/math] then the participant`s rating [math]R_1 [/math] was at the moment you rated him. From here it is seen that in the contest are special rules for ratings. And from here there are misunderstanding of some participants what is happened with their ratings. Moreover since community ratings are hided some participants do not sure how increase ratings of others and gives them maximum 10 points. But in the case the scale from 1 to 10 of points do not work, and some essays are overestimated and some essays are drop down. In my opinion it is a bad problem with this Contest rating process.

        Sergey Fedosin

        Dear Thomas,

        As someone interested in both physics and music, I found your essay very interesting, and indeed eye-opening. You cover a lot of ground in different areas music theory in just one short paper, and I think this may increase the likelihood that some of your arguments escape notice. I looked at your website, and if I may make a suggestion, it would be helpful to interested persons if

        a) you could include some samples that allow the listener to directly compare music according to the tempered scale against the properly tuned one.

        b) you could have dedicated web pages for each of the areas in which your framework leads to a better understanding of aspects of music theory.

        Finally, it seems to me that among those interested in your work may be

        a) music instrument manufacturers

        b) musicians, both composers and performers

        c) music theorists

        d) physicists

        e) architects

        f) physicians

        g) public health officials

        h) entrepreneurs and venture capitalists

        And each group among this "target audience" has obviously different perspectives, backgrounds, levels of and need for understanding aspects of your work. So, if you have not already done so, you may wish to differentiate your approach towards each group. For example you might consider having sections in your website dedicated to addressing each group separately.

        At any rate, your essay was very interesting, and I wish you all the best.

        Armin

        PS. I noticed that you designed an automatic prescription filling progam. Ha, another commonality, as I am (still) a pharmacist by profession.

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          • Post #45

          Dear Tom,

          Thank you so much for your beautifully written article. So much important truth in it!

          Yes, yes, I remember our performances at St. John the Divine and in Valparaiso so well - and how the clarity of hearing or lack thereof made all the difference.

          As ever,

          Nina

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            • Post #46

            Armin

            Thinks for the post.

            I am currently creating a new Web page in which I will explore many of the things you suggest. I will also put examples of some of my music and some samples of tempered and perfectly tuned music as well.

            Reading and responding to the essays here has proved to be a delightful but time-consuming enterprise.

            The prescription program was written for a psychiatrist who deals a lot with drug patients. The details required by the Feds and the prescription forms meant she was spending many hours writing out prescriptions. I was able to automate the process to satisfy both the Feds and the pharmacies and now he does the whole things in fifteen to twenty minutes. It was an interesting challenge.

            Tom Wagner

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            • Post #47

            Thanks Nina

            I am slowly making progress in my notion that the underlying theory of music which, apparently few really understand, is more important to physics than formerly imagined. I am going to start putting things on a new Web page and even writing some blogs.

            I am hopefully going to prove some of the tenets of the Structural Resonance paper and that should help my project considerably.

            I am going to attempt to use the Internet and programs such as Kickstarter to get a performance ot The Wheat Remains. The work gets a lot of attention but if I submit it to Broadway producers I am told it is not for Broadway (I agree) but if I submit it to Opera companies I am told it is very lovely but it does not sound like an opera. What is an opera supposed to sound like?

            Some year ago I refused a commission from the Met for the Wheat Remains. The Met will commission a work but they will not insure that they will produce it. I do not think would have produced this work and in that case the work would be dead. Wish me luck

            Tom

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