"The philosophical discussion should be steered to a mathematical discussion discussing why the mathematics throws this curve ball."

What should be realised is that there was one definitive physical occurrence, which in doing so (ie the sequence progressing) physically interacted with something else which was not inherently part of that sequence, but which is physically existent, to create light, etc. Certain physical properties (ie constancy and speed of change, imperviousness to physical influence, etc) thereof mean that this is a representation of that physical occurrence. That is, it can be converted with a standard set of rules to reveal what occurred. Which is why sight evolved, because it gives the possessor an advantage (you can avoid being eaten/you can see a potential dinner). Light, as in what is convertible if received, is, more or less the 'same' for all recipients. Obviously, the physical entity received is not. Also light takes time to travel, so apart from environmental circumstances in each case, the relative spatial position of recipients with respect to the occurrence is important.

The 'relativity' is not in physical occurrence. There was not a different occurrence for everything that happened to received some indication that there had been an occurrence. The relativity is in the receipt of a physically existent representation of that occurrence, aka light, which depends on relative spatial position. Which of course can alter whilst the light is travelling.

Paul

  • [deleted]

Anton,

From your abstract: "Alternately expressed, a change of state is the result of the interaction with the information content presented by the universe. ... ."

I'm inclined to take a smaller, though related, step: The word "state" in QM might be beneficially replaced by "state of information." A "change of state" then occurs when new information comes to hand. Thus the Bayesian idea of learning and updating from observations.

But this still leaves me questioning your continuation: "... . Information is thus a preserved quantity; ... ."

Am I being too concrete when I say: "Anton, here's some new information for you; just a short note to compliment you on the fine quality of your presentation. Absolutely stunning!"

Since (even neglecting the gain that I suspect you just received), I gained information from my interaction with your information: How then, please, is information a preserved quantity?

PS: Would you mind also telling me how you generated that presentation? For I'd like to attempt it myself.

With best regards, Gordon

    Gordon, I appreciate your comments and compliment.

    When I think of information I divorce it from the living and thus can ask what is the information a piece of space dust receives. This takes some abstract thinking to make sense. The next step in abstraction is not to think in particles, or what I call marble theory, but to think in wavefunctions, and to describe the universe as one single wavefunction. The universe's wavefunction cannot change, however all the sub-wavefunctions which make up particles and your thoughts can change relative to each other.

    In essence, the above has been proven by the many experiments that demonstrate instantaneous "spooky action at a distance" or action (information) transfer by entangled photons.

    Therefore, if you present me with a new observation or information, in doing so you needed energy and by mere act of living, you converted or rearranged many wavefunctions. It sounds like a crackpot idea, but the more thought you give it the less crackpotty it becomes. Ask yourself the question how is knowledge programmed into the living, what we call instincts. I.e. how does a turtle that just hatched from its egg know which way to dig itself out of the sand, and once it reaches the surface what makes it seek the ocean and then as a grownup how does it navigate back to the same beach to lay the eggs for the next generation. There is one important step in this cycle; turtles being loners have no Internet or example in the species from which to learn how to reproduce, furthermore how do they meet in fast expanse of the ocean? All per pre-programmed information that does not get lost from generation to generation.

    All in all, I am trying to approach the question how it was possible for inorganic materials to arrange themselves and form the basis of life. In doing so, preconceived ideas have to be broken down, which include well-established theories.

    Now to your PS. Again thanks for the compliment. I use the free LaTeX a typesetting system that allows you to create your own style, it takes a bit of learning. I use the modern font Palatino for text and it is matched with the awesome Euler fonts for math. For an optimum reading experience it is important to limit the number of characters per line to between 50 and 60, and to provide enough white space between the lines. The sketch was done in LaTeX using TikZ & PGF. You are welcome to email, address in the essay.

    • [deleted]

    1- Krausse does state the possibility that we are at the centre of the universe, but Copi et al. seemed to assiduously avoid that conclusion from the CMB multipole anomalies. Did you add geocentrism to Copi's explanations as an unspoken truism?

    2- Analysis of the MMX using Doppler shifts of the Earth's motion makes the heliocentric system mandatory... that is, makes the Sun an absolute ref frame. I'm wondering why did you have defied relativity? Can you give evidence thzt if the Earth were at rest, there would be no Doppler shifts?

      Robert, (1) If you read Krauss statement fully he carries on that the idea of heliocentrism (that is what the CMB data suggest) is absolutely crazy and if in any way I implied that Copi et al believe we are center of the universe I apologies. I, as Krauss, believe that this result suggests that there is new physics at large that we have not yet discovered.

      (2) I do not believe that we can define a center of the universe using the three dimensions we observe, for the same reason that we cannot define the center of the surface of a sphere, but that is not the subject of the essay.

      You ask: "I'm wondering why did you have defied relativity?" That basically is the subject of the essay, as stated in the title, it is paradox revealed by a mathematical analysis using special relativity transformations and Doppler shifts that give an unexpected result. Furthermore, I believe the community here has sufficient knowledge of both SR and Doppler, to address this mathematical analysis with the hope to get an explanation for this unexpected result, however everyone, who commented above, has avoided the analysis.

      • [deleted]

      Don't know what happened. I did log in.

      Tom

      Tom, only if Bob can travel at the speed of light which he cannot! There is no divide by zero if v less than c

      This contrasts to the ÷0 which is a absurdly accepted principle in physics, i.e the ÷0 that defines black holes and the so called associated event horizon. That is why I do not believe that black holes exist as described by science; however, that volumes of super dense masses exist is beyond dispute.

      Back to the essay, have you an explanation for the result that intuitively should not be?

      Anton,

      Bob can't travel at the speed of light, but information does. The speed of light is constant, so it can be normalized to 1. Then if one accepts your premise and Charlie/Bob are traveling at the same velocity, your result is 2/0. If they are traveling at different velocities, your result has a negative value.

      This is in perfect accord with special relativity. A particle of positive energy(such as Charlie and Bob)and zero momentum possesses negative mass. Einstein's unreduced equation is E^2 = m^2c^4 + (pc)^2, where p is momentum.

      You write, "This contrasts to the ÷0 which is a absurdly accepted principle in physics, i.e the ÷0 that defines black holes and the so called associated event horizon."

      The black hole event horizon has nothing to do with division by zero. Because the speed of light is constant for all bodies whether at relative rest or in accelerated motion, an event (i.e., the interaction of 2 particles) is confined to the black hole interior when the body's escape velocity exceeds the speed of light; therefore, an observer outside the event horizon cannot receive information from the interior.

      Perhaps you are thinking of the topological definition 1/0 = oo for the complex plane compactified to C*, the simplest Riemann sphere, which has one simple pole at infinity (rather than the two poles of an orb, like the Earth). However, this also has nothing to do with division by zero.

      Tom

      Anton,

      No, you needn't say more. Don't you want to know, though, when your algebra is wrong?

      Wikipedia is not a great source for this kind of thing. However, (hopefully) fixing your link , one will find that "The Schwarzschild metric is a solution of Einstein's field equations in empty space, meaning that it is valid only outside the gravitating body. That is, for a spherical body of radius R the solution is valid for r > R. To describe the gravitational field both inside and outside the gravitating body the Schwarzschild solution must be matched with some suitable interior solution at r = R."

      As I said.

      Tom

      • [deleted]

      Anton,

      I'm planning to get back to you -- to discuss information and interactions -- as soon as I get my essay done.

      This short note is to say: Many thanks for sharing your formatting system; it's as good as I've seen. For now, though, I've decided to plug on with my current system -- having little time for new tricks until I get my essay up.

      However, as a return favour, I'm pleased for you to be the first to know publicly: "The quantum is classical." Me having the impression that such a conclusion might be close to your own thinking.

      So, with the title settled -- "Deep physics, easy maths: The quantum is classical." -- the rest is downhill. (My use of that last reflecting some of the clever words you've invented!)

      More soon, and my thanks again,

      Gordon

      Anton

      Congratulations on a well-explained, ingenious and relevant essay on the contest Question. Its compactness is welcome because it allows one to concentrate on the few points to be understood.

      Your approach is interesting, and if there is anywhere the paradox can be resolved it may be in pinpointing the slippery concept of "information". For example I strongly disagree with the prevailing point-photon particle concept. Will your arguments still stand if - for example - information is embedded in amplitude modulated continuous electromagnetic waves? What about if there is a discrete ether medium?

      A friend read your essay but did not wish to join the online discussions directly, and emailed me the following comment:

      "Special relativity has always been challenged by paradoxes, the twin paradox and the barn and ladder are the classics and well known. Vrba's information paradox is new to me, analysing the MM-experiment using a continues wave and Doppler shifts instead of a point particle does make sense and is closer to what happens in nature, his logic seems to be correct and I presume he has checked his maths - this is going to be interesting what explanation will be given"

      With best wishes in the contest,

      Vladimir

        Vladimir, thank you for comments, yes the argument does hold for amplitude modulated signals, only cycles are counted , how the information is encoded is immaterial. I doubt that a discrete ether medium will solve the problem; one has to look wider and solve the many aspects of physics simultaneously, the island solutions or the house of physics, which you pictured so nicely in your essay last year just do not work anymore. I fear a ether theories are will only lead to an island solution.

        I am still waiting for the reply that says "Anton that is a lot of BS you published there, because of so and so" and shows me an error in my presentation in the normal scientific method, that is using mathematics. That is not forthcoming, instead I get off-topic and generalised comments, even from a Ph.D who can only manage "It should not work out that way."

        9 days later

        Dear Sir,

        Your conclusion is very interesting. The following observations may interest you.

        Transverse waves are always characterized by particle motion being perpendicular to the wave motion. This implies the existence of a medium through which the reference wave travels and with respect to which the transverse wave travels in a perpendicular direction. In the absence of the reference wave, which is a longitudinal wave, the transverse wave can not be characterized as such. All transverse waves are background invariant by its very definition. Since light is propagated in transverse waves, Maxwell used a transverse wave and aether fluid model for his equations. Feynman has shown that Lorentz transformation and invariance of speed of light follows from Maxwell's equations. Einstein's causal analysis in SR is based on Lorentz's motional theory where a propagation medium is essential to solve the wave equation. Einstein's ether-less relativity is not supported by Maxwell's Equations nor the Lorentz Transformations, both of which are medium (aether) based. Thus, the non-observance of aether drag (as observed in Michelson-Morley experiments) cannot serve to ultimately disprove the aether model. The equations describing space-time, based on Einstein's theories of relativity, are mathematically identical to the equations describing ordinary fluid and solid systems. Yet, it is paradoxical that physicists have denied aether model while using the formalism derived from it. They don't realize that Maxwell used transverse wave model, whereas aether drag considers longitudinal waves. Thus, the notion that Einstein's work is based on "aether-less model" is a myth. All along he used the aether model, while claiming the very opposite.

        Regarding Einstein, there is a great degree of misinformation. The concept of measurement has undergone a big change over the last century leading to changes in "mathematics of physics". It all began with the problem of measuring the length of a moving rod. Two possibilities of measurement suggested by Mr. Einstein in his 1905 paper were:

        (a) "The observer moves together with the given measuring-rod and the rod to be measured, and measures the length of the rod directly by superposing the measuring-rod, in just the same way as if all three were at rest", or

        (b) "By means of stationary clocks set up in the stationary system and synchronizing with a clock in the moving frame, the observer ascertains at what points of the stationary system the two ends of the rod to be measured are located at a definite time. The distance between these two points, measured by the measuring-rod already employed, which in this case is at rest, is the length of the rod"

        The method described at (b) is misleading. We can do this only by setting up a measuring device to record the emissions from both ends of the rod at the designated time, (which is the same as taking a photograph of the moving rod) and then measure the distance between the two points on the recording device in units of velocity of light or any other unit. But the picture will not give a correct reading due to two reasons:

        • If the length of the rod is small or velocity is small, then length contraction will not be perceptible according to the formula given by Einstein.

        • If the length of the rod is big or velocity is comparable to that of light, then light from different points of the rod will take different times to reach the recording device and the picture we get will be distorted due to different Doppler shift. Thus, there is only one way of measuring the length of the rod as in (a).

        Here also we are reminded of an anecdote relating to a famous scientist, who once directed two of his students to precisely measure the wave-length of sodium light. Both students returned with different results - one resembling the normally accepted value and the other a different value. Upon enquiry, the other student replied that he had also come up with the same result as the accepted value, but since everything including the Earth and the scale on it is moving, for precision measurement he applied length contraction to the scale treating the star Betelgeuse as a reference point. This changed the result. The scientist told him to treat the scale and the object to be measured as moving with the same velocity and recalculate the wave-length of light again without any reference to Betelgeuse. After sometime, both the students returned to tell that the wave-length of sodium light is infinite. To a surprised scientist, they explained that since the scale is moving with light, its length would shrink to zero. Hence it will require an infinite number of scales to measure the wave-length of sodium light!

        Some scientists we have come across try to overcome this difficulty by pointing out that length contraction occurs only in the direction of motion. They claim that if we hold the rod in a transverse direction to the direction of motion, then there will be no length contraction. But we fail to understand how the length can be measured by holding the rod in a transverse direction. If the light path is also transverse to the direction of motion, then the terms c+v and c-v vanish from the equation making the entire theory redundant. If the observer moves together with the given measuring-rod and the rod to be measured, and measures the length of the rod directly by superposing the measuring-rod while moving with it, he will not find any difference because the length contraction, if real, will be in the same proportion for both.

        The fallacy in the above description is that if one treats "as if all three were at rest", one cannot measure velocity or momentum, as the object will be relatively as rest, which means zero relative velocity. Either Mr. Einstein missed this point or he was clever enough to camouflage this, when, in his 1905 paper, he said: "Now to the origin of one of the two systems (k) let a constant velocity v be imparted in the direction of the increasing x of the other stationary system (K), and let this velocity be communicated to the axes of the co-ordinates, the relevant measuring-rod, and the clocks". But is this the velocity of k as measured from k, or is it the velocity as measured from K? This question is extremely crucial. K and k each have their own clocks and measuring rods, which are not treated as equivalent by Mr. Einstein. Therefore, according to his theory, the velocity will be measured by each differently. In fact, they will measure the velocity of k differently. But Mr. Einstein does not assign the velocity specifically to either system. Everyone missed it and all are misled. His spinning disk example in GR also falls for the same reason.

        Einstein uses a privileged frame of reference to define synchronization and then denies the existence of any privileged frame of reference. We quote from his 1905 paper on the definition of synchronization: "Let a ray of light start at the "A time" tA from A towards B, let it at the "B time" tB be reflected at B in the direction of A, and arrive again at A at the "A time" t'A. In accordance with definition the two clocks synchronize if: tB - tA = t'A - tB."

        "We assume that this definition of synchronism is free from contradictions, and possible for any number of points; and that the following relations are universally valid:--

        1. If the clock at B synchronizes with the clock at A, the clock at A synchronizes with the clock at B.

        2. If the clock at A synchronizes with the clock at B and also with the clock at C, the clocks at B and C also synchronize with each other."

        The concept of relativity is valid only between two objects. Introduction of a third object brings in the concept of privileged frame of reference and all equations of relativity fall. Yet, Mr. Einstein precisely does the same while claiming the very opposite. In the above description, the clock at A is treated as a privileged frame of reference for proving synchronization of the clocks at B and C. Yet, he claims it is relative!

        Regards,

        basudeba

        Anton,

        I agree, that information is a sort of a preserved quantity. But I do not agree, that information causes a change of any physical state. Information by itself cannot change anything real.

        According to C.F.v.Weizsäcker information is nothing else than the a quantitative measure of FORM (in_form) that can be found on a physical structure or state. The more complex the structure or state is, the more information is needed to describe it.

        By generalizing this relationship between fundamental physics and information theory von Weizsäcker concluded:

        ENERGY is INFORMATION.

        (in: Unity of Nature)

        If we take this statement as a fundamental "relation" not only energy has to be conserved, Information has to be conserved as well. That means, no information can be, in principle, destroyed. The black hole information paradox is therefore no paradox, it is mehrely the result of an insufficient description of spacetime-singularities. No information is really destroyed by them. An actual information has only been transformed into a virtual information, that is stored in the underlying field.

        To highlight this insufficience it is useful to remember the behavior of waves. We know that waves - if are out of phase - can cause complete destructive interference, which looks very like a violation of conservation of energy. But we know that every time light cancels light "at one location" there is another location - usually nearby - where light reinforces light, and all the energy that is missing from the canceled location shows up at the reinforced location.

        I think, we have to reason about the black hole destruction of information in a very similar way. And here I agree with you again. Using information theory the black hole paradox can possibly be solved.

        Helmut, consider the case that you are enjoying a holiday on some tropical island and you receive the news, which is information, that a hurricane is approaching the island with probable catastrophic consequence. Your physical state will change dramatically from relaxed to frantic activity.

        Now let's consider what is information in a physical sense and ask the question what information a piece of space dust receives, and when viewed from that point of view, information encompasses all physical phenomena that interact with that particle, and that interaction will cause a change of state.

        Anton,

        Short and sweet is not problem at all when so accurately 'to the point'!

        I think I have a simple logical solution for you, if you haven't already found it, but perhaps you can tell me on reading my essay.

        Your axiom 3 stood out to me as nonsense before I'd finished reading it, so I was very pleased to discover that you'd found that too! There is however a slight 're-interpretation' of it that which works. It shows Einstein was closer than most think, but that one wrong assumption made nonsense of it all. It's actually better described in a Hadronic Journal paper here; Emission/SR/QM resolution (Unfortunately few read that).

        But well done with the essay. Sometimes small is very beautiful.

        Best of luck,

        Peter

        11 days later

        Dear Anton

        The opening of your very good, but the conclusion was that to do I actually disappointment. It looks like you used a new question - answer more difficult - to answer the question posed.

        http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1802

        4 days later

        Anton,

        Let's continue about why "mathematics throws this curveball", as you put it.

        I think it has to do with the definition of information.

        If you define the amount of information received as the number of photons received, then Bob and Charlie receive the same amount of information.

        But if you define the amount of information received as the total energy received, then Bob and Charlie receive different amounts of information due to relativistic effects (red shift).

        So there is your curve ball. I would say: it is not a matter of mathematics, it is a matter of defining 'the amount of information received'.

        Can you agree with that?

        Best regards,

        Marcoen