Dear Edwin,

I consider Feeley's Bush Doctor quote and your three Chinese pictures unnecessary hurdles of understanding. Your text explains the meaning of one picture but I felt unable to understand the whole arrangement.

While I understand your theory and its importance meanwhile already a bit better, the connection between gravity and information was perhaps too far-fetched as to provide an immediately plausible example for the application of your theory.

My question concerning the "now" is not astutely meant. I do not entirely share Feeley's argument that an observable is just the result of a measurement. I see it an abstraction that describes what could already have been measured. People like you Mark Feeley and me who did not lose their common sense will agree on that future data evade measurement in advance. In biology there is a distinction between in vivo and in vitrio. The "now" is something similar to in vivo, something outside the scope of Einstein's and Wheeler's physics.

My objection against Einstein's first postulate might indeed be astute. I will try and explain it in reply to Paul.

Thank you again for your warm words.

All the best,

Eckard

Paul,

You are in company with the whole community of physicists when considering the first postulate "a statement of the obvious". I have only Einstein's original paper in Annalen der Physik IV. Folge 17, 1905, p. 891 in German at hand.

My translation:

"The laws that describe how the states of the physical systems change do not depend (on the decision) on which of two coordinate systems we relate these changes of state if the two coordinate system are in steady motion relative to each other."

I added "on the decision". Of course, symmetry demands that coordinate system A and coordinate system B are interchangeable. However, are we really entitled to chose A and B independently?

As I mentioned in my endnotes, we may look at reality each time only from one arbitrarily chosen coordinate system. Neglect of this led to the twin paradox. Strictly speaking the first postulate is only wrong when we tacitly assume that it implies use of the same quantities in both systems.

Einstein abandoned ontological simultaneity as to apply an asymmetrical method of synchronization and as to formally arrive at Lorentz contraction by means of averaging the Doppler effect back and forth.

Eckard

Eckhard,

You say, "I do not entirely share Feeley's argument that an observable is just the result of a measurement."

I would modify that to say, "A quantum mechanical observable is just the result of a measurement." There may be more there physically, but QM is formulated on the measurement.

And I have filled in all of the details of the 'gravity-to-particles-to structure-to-information' chain in other works, listed in my references. I do realize that the essay is too brief to be convincing.

For a good analysis of the 'now', I recommend Daryl Janzen's current essay.

Best regards,

Edwin Eugene Klingman

Eckard

That is interesting. Because if that is literally what he wrote as his first postulate then the misconception is there to be seen. The caveat of "steady motion relative to each other" is superfluous. A physical circumstance is in a state and changes to that state occur independently of another. So any law which defines what is happening just needs to do so.

The quote I have (1923 English version) is: " the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good. We will raise this conjecture (the purport of which will hereafter be called the "Principle of Relativity") to the status of a postulate,"

"As I mentioned in my endnotes, we may look at reality each time only from one arbitrarily chosen coordinate system"

Indeed, by definition anything is only anything by virtue of comparison and the identification of difference, and then in order to ensure comparability of other such identifications, constancy of reference has to be maintained. But the real point here is not how reality is 'looked' at but how it occurs.

Einstein did not abandon simultaneity. This was one of his fundamental mistakes which meant he thought he had an 'extra' layer of time. The Lorentz contraction (ie dimension alteration) becomes a consequence of the 1905 way of viewing what is happening. Having been the catalyst which caused them to think there was some form of relativity of occurrence in reality.

Paul

Paul,

I prefer answering in a new thread.

Here is the translation of Einstein's first postulated principle given by Wikisource:

The laws according to which the states of physical systems alter are independent of the choice, to which of two co-ordinate systems (having a uniform translatory motion relative to each other) these state changes are related.

Don't get me wrong. I do not object against the possibility to chose either the one or the other co-ordinate system as reference. I only question the tacit assumption of two rigid bodies (= co-ordinate systems) in uniform translatory motion relative to each other. My argument is simple: If the second rigid body was very long it could transfer information with a velocity in excess of c.

I see this also valid with the postulate you quoted as formulated in 1923.

Eckard

    Dear Edwin,

    I feel hurt by Daryl Janzen because he certainly read essays of mine and didn't even it worth to mention my key arguments (in particular Fig. 1 in my previous essay) concerning what he put in the center of his new essay. He quoted the same utterances as did I already in the last contest. I accept his presentist position and share some of his criticism. However, he seems to avoid consequent reasoning.

    I will abstain from a judgment of his essay until I did read it more carefully and I gave him the opportunity to justify himself.

    Best regards,

    Eckard

    Dear Eckhard,

    I am sure Daryl did not intentionally overlook you. The topic was his dissertation for his PhD last year so I'm sure he has a million references in his mind. Also, just as you have had to deal with health and flooding issues, Daryl has small children and a very recent surgery in his family. So I would give him the benefit of the doubt and simply discuss the issues where you agree and disagree, if any.

    My best regards,

    Edwin Eugene Klingman

    Dear

    Thank you for presenting your nice essay. I saw the abstract and will post my comments soon.

    So you can produce material from your thinking. . . .

    I am requesting you to go through my essay also. And I take this opportunity to say, to come to reality and base your arguments on experimental results.

    I failed mainly because I worked against the main stream. The main stream community people want magic from science instead of realty especially in the subject of cosmology. We all know well that cosmology is a subject where speculations rule.

    Hope to get your comments even directly to my mail ID also. . . .

    Best

    =snp

    snp.gupta@gmail.com

    http://vaksdynamicuniversemodel.blogspot.com/

    Pdf download:

    http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/essay-download/1607/__details/Gupta_Vak_FQXi_TABLE_REF_Fi.pdf

    Part of abstract:

    - -Material objects are more fundamental- - is being proposed in this paper; It is well known that there is no mental experiment, which produced material. . . Similarly creation of matter from empty space as required in Steady State theory or in Bigbang is another such problem in the Cosmological counterpart. . . . In this paper we will see about CMB, how it is generated from stars and Galaxies around us. And here we show that NO Microwave background radiation was detected till now after excluding radiation from Stars and Galaxies. . . .

    Some complements from FQXi community. . . . .

    A

    Anton Lorenz Vrba wrote on May. 4, 2013 @ 13:43 GMT

    ....... I do love your last two sentences - that is why I am coming back.

    Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on May. 6, 2013 @ 09:24 GMT

    . . . . We should use our minds to down to earth realistic thinking. There is no point in wasting our brains in total imagination which are never realities. It is something like showing, mixing of cartoon characters with normal people in movies or people entering into Game-space in virtual reality games or Firing antimatter into a black hole!!!. It is sheer a madness of such concepts going on in many fields like science, mathematics, computer IT etc. . . .

    B.

    Francis V wrote on May. 11, 2013 @ 02:05 GMT

    Well-presented argument about the absence of any explosion for a relic frequency to occur and the detail on collection of temperature data......

    C

    Robert Bennett wrote on May. 14, 2013 @ 18:26 GMT

    "Material objects are more fundamental"..... in other words "IT from Bit" is true.

    Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on May. 14, 2013 @ 22:53 GMT

    1. It is well known that there is no mental experiment, which produced material.

    2. John Wheeler did not produce material from information.

    3. Information describes material properties. But a mere description of material properties does not produce material.

    4. There are Gods, Wizards, and Magicians, allegedly produced material from nowhere. But will that be a scientific experiment?

    D

    Hoang cao Hai wrote on Jun. 16, 2013 @ 16:22 GMT

    It from bit - where are bit come from?

    Author Satyavarapu Naga Parameswara Gupta replied on Jun. 17, 2013 @ 06:10 GMT

    ....And your question is like asking, -- which is first? Egg or Hen?-- in other words Matter is first or Information is first? Is that so? In reality there is no way that Matter comes from information.

    Matter is another form of Energy. Matter cannot be created from nothing. Any type of vacuum cannot produce matter. Matter is another form of energy. Energy is having many forms: Mechanical, Electrical, Heat, Magnetic and so on..

    E

    Antony Ryan wrote on Jun. 23, 2013 @ 22:08 GMT

    .....Either way your abstract argument based empirical evidence is strong given that "a mere description of material properties does not produce material". While of course materials do give information.

    I think you deserve a place in the final based on this alone. Concise - simple - but undeniable.

    Dear Edwin,

    Thank you again for pointing me to Daryl. This way I got aware of Michael Helland who quoted Newton's distinction between two meanings of time.

    I agree with Michael with one exception: "I tend to identify the reality with what can be discovered mainly by means of observation, measurement, and reasoning while I see so called absolute reality, e.g. Newton's God, an abstraction. See Fig. 1 of my previous essay."

    To Newton there was of course only one God as today there is only one Special Theory of Relativity. Accordingly Helland argues for different layers of reality which reminds me of Georg Cantor's different levels of infinity. Are you ready to share my opposite view considering just one reality basic to all guesses, hypotheses, theories, and laws that were abstracted from information about it?

    By the way, I only mentioned personal difficulties just as to excuse the deterring misspelling in the title of my essay. Usually I tolerate misspellings in particular of my name.

    My best regards,

    Eckard

    Dear Eckhard,

    You ask: "Are you ready to share my opposite view considering just one reality basic to all guesses, hypotheses, theories, and laws that were abstracted from information about it?"

    If I understand your statement correctly, I agree with you completely. That is what my current essay is about. That is what the 'not-two' refers to in my essay. I assume that one reality exists that evolves through self-interaction, as there is absolutely nothing else to interact with. I then try to show how this reality 'subdivides' (field produces particles) and these 'parts' then allow structure to form and these structures become 'in-form'ed. But underlying all abstractions that follow from such 'in-form'-ation is the one reality.

    I understand this as the reason that you have worked to rid mathematics of 'unreal' elements by restricting it to cosine transforms and R regions with positive real values. Like you, I do not believe singularities exist, but I do recognize the utility of some abstract tools, such as complex numbers, properly interpreted. I think we are driven by the same realization.

    My best regards,

    Ediwn Eugene Klingman

    Eckard

    So do I. And that is an obvious challenge based on the translation of the first postulate you are quoting. Because as I said earlier, the standard 1923 work does not phrase it this way, it writes of "in all frames of reference". Which is physically correct, ie any law which corresponds with reality must be applicable in all circumstances, would be the most generalised way of putting it.

    The caveat of uniform motion is an irrelevance (which is not the same as rigid bodies, but indicates how he is thinking. So even in this 'version' the first postulate is not wrong, just over conditioned. It is the second postulate which matters.

    "My argument is simple: If the second rigid body was very long it could transfer information with a velocity in excess of c"

    This is incorrect. Light only ever starts at c and can only decrease. The size of a body is irrelevant. Light is created at one spatial position, other light is created at another spatial position.

    The whole issue here is how does reality occur, not how photons interact with it.

    Paul

    In order to test my understanding of the velocity of light and of simultaneity, Daryl Janzen introduced two gunslingers (this word is not in my dictionary, I just assume receivers of the same signal) who are located on a train with equal distance from the common a source of that signal located in the middle of the train.

    Yes, according to the endnotes of my essay, they will see the signal at the same moment. It is reasonable and possible to choose only one co-ordinate system that refers to the train.

    An observer on the ground may sees the train moving to the right. This motion does not matter.

    Eckard

      Sorry Paul,

      I disagree with you. Einstein himself identified a co-ordinate with a rigid body. Such rigid body would have infinite length. In order to transfer a signal faster than with light, It would be sufficient to vary the position of this second co-ordinate relative to the co-ordinate of reference.

      And yes, I question the first postulate when it is understood claiming that the laws of nature are SIMULTANEOUSLY valid "in all frames of reference". Once we have chosen a co-ordinate, the other dependencies are affected by Doppler illusions.

      Eckard

      Dear Edwin,

      You might continue calling me Eckhard. I will still respect you as someone much more knowledgeable than me. Maybe we are both intending to reach more than we can achieve. You and others confirmed that my essay was easy to read. I could hope for a much lower scoring if everyone did read it and did understand my arguments as a serious attack against established tenets.

      I highly appreciate those few like you who may begin to realize that there seems to be a babble of arrogance in physics. Well, complex calculus is a very valuable tool but its mandatory use under all circumstances relates to the belief-related decision of those like Newton to put the god-related abstract so-called absolute time on the first place and ignore the just positive elapsed time.

      J. v. Neumann enchanted his disciples by creating the numbers out of nothing. I am less impressed by such brilliant maneuvers.

      Thank you again for pointing me to Daryl Janzen. I hope he will take issue.

      Best regards,

      Eckard

      Eckard,

      Thanks for your answer. I'm sorry you felt that I mean to 'test' you with this question. I just thought it would be a nice concrete place to start a discussion about relativity and check on what we can agree, as you previously suggested.

      And sorry for the confusion over the definition of a 'gunslinger'. From Wikipedia: Gunfighter and gunslinger /ˈɡʌnslɪŋər/, are 20th-century words, used in cinema or literature, referring to men in the American Old West who had gained a reputation as being dangerous with a gun.

      In the scenario I posted, which I adapted from Greene's 'Fabric of the Cosmos', the two men are dueling with laser pistols, so their 'bullets' travel at c. And someone observes it all from outside the train. I asked: "Do the gunslingers see the signal at the same time, or not? According to which perspective? If no, is it still a fair fight (assuming each stands his ground)? How do you reconcile this with there being one common time?"

      We don't agree on the answer to the first question, so let's consider your suggestion 3: "The velocity of light c equals to the distance d between the position of emitter at the moment of emission and the position of receiver at the moment of detection divided by the time of flight t: c=d/t."

      In the frame of the observer outside the train, the signal propagates at c towards both gunslingers, from the place of emission. While the signal is propagating, the guy on the left is approaching that point of emission and the guy to the right is moving away from it. The distance that the light eventually travels in order to reach the guy on the left should therefore be less, in the outside observer's frame of reference, than the distance that the light eventually travels in order to reach the guy at the right. With c constant, this means, by your suggestion 3, that the signal reaches the guy at the left in less time than it takes to reach the guy to the right.

      On the other hand, in the gunslingers' proper frame of reference on the train, they never move relative to the place where the signal is emitted, so the distance that the light travels is the same in either direction, takes the same amount of time to get to both gunslingers, and is therefore observed by each of them at the same time.

      Do you disagree that the signal will be observed synchronously in the gunslingers' frame, but the gunslinger on the left will see the signal before the one on the right in the frame of the observer standing outside the train? If we can agree on this basic picture, which doesn't say anything about what's *really* going on, but only demonstrates the issue that Einstein and others realised, then we can move on to discuss how we would interpret it. The key, in my opinion, has to do with what Paul brought up in his first post above, on Jun. 12, 2013 @ 18:47 GMT. As I keep saying, synchronicity and simultaneity are different things.

      Regards,

      Daryl

      Oh I can't help myself. Can I say already what I think is the problem with Einstein's proposal that synchronous events are simultaneous? It's perfectly exemplified in the following quotation from Greene (next three paragraphs):

      "So: *if you buy the notion that reality consists of the things in your freeze-frame mental image of right now, and if you agree that your* now *is no more valid than the* now *of someone located far away in space who can move freely, then reality encompasses all of the events of spacetime*. The total loaf exists [he's been chopping up space-time like a loaf of bread]. Just as we envision all of space as *really* being out there, as *really* existing, we should also envision all of time as *really* being out there, as *really* existing, too. Past, present, and future certainly appear to be distinct entities. But, as Einstein once said, "For we convinced physicists, the distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, however persistent." The only thing that's real is the whole of spacetime.

      "In this way of thinking, events, regardless of when they happen from any particular perspective, just *are*. They all exist. They eternally occupy their particular point in spacetime. There is no flow. If you were having a great time at the stroke of midnight on New Year's Eve, 1999, you still are, since that is just one immutable location in spacetime. It is tough to accept this description, since our worldview so forcefully distinguishes between past, present, and future. But if we stare intently at this familiar temporal scheme and confront it with the cold hard facts of modern physics, its only place of refuge seems to lie within the human mind.

      "Undeniably, our conscious experience seems to sweep through the slices. It is as though our minds provide the projector light referred to earlier, so that moments of time come to life when they are illuminated by the power of consciousness. The flowing sensation from one moment to the next arises from our conscious recognition of change in our thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. And the sequence of change seems to have a continuous motion; it seems to unfold into a coherent story... The intuitive image of a projector light that brings each new *now* to life just doesn't hold up to careful examination. Instead, every moment is illuminated, and every moment remains illuminated. Every moment *is*. Under close scrutiny, the flowing river of time more closely resembles a giant block of ice with every moment forever frozen into place."

      People do think of space-time as existing, but not always just as such a frozen block. In the general relativistic picture, objects are more often thought to move around, warping space-time as they go. How often have you heard that when something falls into a black hole, it has to keep falling towards the singularity at r=0 because r is the timelike direction within the event horizon, so even light can't escape it? It can move in any spatial direction it likes, but even light has to keep going towards r=0. Let me ask you: if one of these gunslingers we're talking about jumped into a black hole, could he shoot a laser bullet towards r=2m and one towards r=0 (say he's got two guns and fires them simultaneously in either 'direction') so that, although they'd both fall towards the singularity out of necessity, the latter bullet would actually get there 'first'? Should that be any more possible to do than for you to take a gun and point it towards the past and another and point it towards the future and have the latter make it to 2014 before the former? The whole concept is so completely inconsistent and blatantly wrong!--and it's truly remarkable that it's persisted as long as it has.

      So, the first point I addressed in my essay--which I couldn't avoid having to address because nothing else I could say would make any sense from the point of view of the current incorrect paradigm in physics--is the blatant inconsistency in this common way of thinking of space-time as something that exists: due to the "relativity of simultaneity", people *do* think of space-time as existing, as the Greene quotation illustrates, *but the idea smuggles in an extra dimension that's not formally part of the theory*! They think of a block universe--all of space-time--as existing, which sneaks in the same sense of temporality as we think of when we think of a block of wood as existing. Just as a 3D block of wood sitting somewhere as time passes is a 4D concept, described by 4D physics with three spatial and one temporal dimensions, a 4D block universe existing as Greene has described it is a *5D* concept, described by four space-time dimensions and one temporal dimension. There's more unobservable (and completely unjustifiable) structure in this view than there is when we just assume absolute simultaneity and a true rest frame, which is what Einstein rejected from the point of view of parsimony; i.e., he was so parsimonious that his theory led to a conception of reality with *more* added junk than if he'd just accepted what's *obvious* from the beginning.

      But the 5D idea that Greene describes really is a misrepresentation of what Einstein's SR is actually supposed to imply. So: what does Einstein's proposal that simultaneity is relative *really* mean? The block universe that's a logical consequence of the proposal is *just* a 4D slice of that 5D reality. The block universe doesn't exist; it's just a temporally singular thing that pops in and out of that 'existence' in an instant.

      My point is that when one finally understands, and makes this clear distinction, and denies the temporality that our thoughts always want to sneak into the idea, then it should be very clear that the Einsteinian view, that synchronous events should be simultaneous, *must* be wrong. The reason is obvious: *something* exists; there is *some* sense in which time passes, because right now is earlier than right now is earlier than right now, etc.--or at least it's not all on par as we perceive it. That much is true, even if it's because all of eternity *exists* in the 5D sense described by Greene, and our consciousnesses simply flow through our worldtubes like a river that flows everywhere and never runs dry. For that consciousness to flow, and the block to exist, that fifth dimension is required. The pure 4D block universe, unadulterated by our thoughts, is impossible to reconcile with any realistic sense of the world, and those who argue for it always do fall back on the 5D concept at one time or other, if not always so overtly as Greene does.

      So, what I propose is that only the three-dimensional world around us exists, and there is only one true sense of simultaneity. In the gunslingers example, the signal either reaches them simultaneously or it doesn't, regardless of whether that is described as synchronous in the chosen frame of reference or not. This bit of structure that's necessary to form a coherent theory of existence that's consistent with the apparent flow of time, etc., precludes any informational bits that might come to be. Above all else, without *existence*, bits can't exist--for bits that exist can't be the cause of their own existence.

      So how do we reconcile the results of the gunslingers example with the notion of absolute simultaneity? Take the outside observer to be perfectly at rest in the cosmic rest-frame. Now consider the perspective of the two gunslingers. Is it so difficult to see that from their perspective, if they'd just lift the blinds so they can see the world around them, then they too would realise that the guy to the left is going to see the signal first, because he meets it part-way between his position at the time of emission and the signal's position at the time of emission?

      Of course it's not difficult to see that that's going to be their perception. Just because everything can also be described as if the train were at rest and the Universe were zipping past--just because he can bounce a ball on the floor, or toss it in the air, and have it come right back to his hand--doesn't mean the gunslingers are unable to come to grips with the fact that they're actually moving, and the sense that the guy to the left is going to see the signal first.

      But this is the rock that the whole relativity church was built upon: Mach's failed argument that even if there is a cosmic rest frame we could never observe it; Einstein's wrong argument that it's just superfluous structure and the theory's just as good without it. WE HAVE A VERY PRECISE OBSERVATION OF A COSMIC REST-FRAME, and all the relative motion between galaxies, which is very small compared to the speed of light, is full well understood to be motion through the Universe.

      So let's go back to Greene's statement: *if you buy the notion that reality consists of the things in your freeze-frame mental image of right now, and if you agree that your* now *is no more valid than the* now *of someone located far away in space who can move freely*. This statement has been fed to us for a hundred years, and it's just plain wrong. For which freeze-frame mental image of right now are we supposed to say is the valid one for the gunslingers to hold: the one with the blinds shut or the one with them open? If the former is no more valid a mental image to them than the latter, and acceptance of the latter in light of all the cosmological evidence we've found over the past century is also consistent with the apparent fact that time does flow, then why the **** should we hold the former up as the crown jewel of objective thought, which proves to us without a doubt that there's no such thing as the passage of time, and all eternity 'exists'? If the freeze-frame mental image of right now that's held by the gunslingers when they've blocked out the evidence from the world around them leads to an unrealistic description of physical reality when we assume that it's a true representation of "right now", then we should instead assume that the true representation of "right now" is the freeze-frame mental image of right now that's held by the gunslingers when they've opened the blinds!

      Cheers,

      Daryl

      Eckard

      I might just say first, my original comment which sparked this thread of exchange is that SR is not what Basudeba and you think it is, which was evidenced by the exchange you two were having. Your literal translation of the first postulate was very interesting. I find it the culmination of a farce, that although the man was clearly wrong in his concept of relativity, in 2013 there is not even a definitive statement of his postulate. As I said, this technically does not matter, just gives easier insight into the flawed thinking. It is the second postulate that matters.

      Now, in response to the above. Einstein, et al, were fixated with avoiding anything but 'simple' movement because they thought relative movement was caused by a differential in a force (later identified as gravity)which ALSO caused length alteration. So having as a reference for calibration something that is, of itself, altering is a problem. In other words, the connection between what can constitute a reference (co-ordinate)and rigidity is in their heads, not necessarily reality. It may or may not be so that a differential in gravitational force incurred not only causes alteration in momentum, but also causes a dimension alteration.

      The point is that this caused a predisposition in their mind-set to think that their is some form of relativity in existence. [Which there is, but it is in the timing of the receipt of light]. By virtue of two fundamental, and counterbalancing mistakes, Einstein identified that relativity. In effect he asserted a differential in existence. He did not mean to do this, he thought he was accounting for the way timing works and observation. But what people intend to do, or think they are doing, is irrelevant. It is what they actually did which matters.

      Specifically, my point was that, while I do not know how light works, the length of anything will be identified by different physical lights. Rigidity or otherwise is irrelevant, and light does not travel faster than its original start speed which is a constant being the result of an atomic interaction. It can be calibrated to be, in effect, travelling faster, if one chooses an appropriate reference, ie one travelling towards it.

      Re your second para. Certainly the caveat of 'steady motion' is superfluous. The whole intent of the first postulate seems to be that existence is independent of the perspective from which it is calibrated. Which is correct. The follow on being that therefore any law which explains existence must be operable in all circumstances. But Einstein was viewing things differently, so to say 'all frames' is wrong, but is an interpretational fault, ie not apparently what Einstein was saying. And as you say, the apparent alteration in rate of change, when there is relative movement, is an optical illusion akin to the Doppler effect (an explanation of that was the first post I ever put up on NPA).

      Paul

      Daryl, my dear,

      Having learned the word gunslinger, I would appreciate you having understood my arguments. You might consider me bold if I do not deal with your worries concerning spacetime.

      Since I were a teacher of EE, I understand light as waves. My previous essay made aware of an experiment by Norbert Feist who seemed to confirm that acoustic waves behave as light in Michelson's experiment. Therefore I dealt with the expectations for the outcome of Michelson's experiment. I realized that all literature on relativity did adopt the correction by Potier/Lorentz of Michelson's first guess, and this correction is not quite correct. This flaw can however not account for Michelson's null result. While Feist's experiment was also flawless, his conclusion is wrong. Michelson was already correct in 1881 when he concluded that there is no medium that carries the light.

      Unfortunately, Michelson was unable to explain his null result. At least he rejected Einstein's relativity as a monster. When I looked for my own solution to the enigma, I decoupled my ongoing trust in the validity of Maxwell's equations from Maxwell's guess that there is a material medium which carries electromagnetic waves. In principle this corresponds to what was already done by those like Hertz, Heaviside, and Gibbs who formulated Maxwell's equation without convective term.

      You wrote: "In the frame of the observer outside the train, the signal propagates at c towards both gunslingers, from the place of emission. While the signal is propagating, the guy on the left is approaching that point of emission and the guy to the right is moving away from it. The distance that the light eventually travels in order to reach the guy on the left should therefore be less, in the outside observer's frame of reference,..."

      I clearly pointed out that the outside observer does not matter, see also my suggestion 2. There is no reason to believe that an ideal observation acts upon the propagation of light.

      Did I understand you correctly that you believe the two wild West men don't receive the signal simultaneously? I consider this option disproved by Michelson's null result.

      Regards,

      Eckard

      Eckhard,

      Yes, "there seems to be a babble of arrogance in physics", quite a bit of babble.

      And I too am glad that I pointed Daryl out to you.

      With respect to some statements below: I believe that both you and Daryl have spent more time on Special Relativity than have I, but I would offer the following. I am tending toward the opinion that it is the ever-present gravitational field that is the 'medium' through which light propagates. I won't bother quoting them again, but some textbook authors of General Relativity texts state clearly that the gravitational field has energy and hence is a 'material substance', which is compatible with my theory. If this is the case, then I would expect the relevant gravity for the MM experiment would be the local gravity on the Earth, and this should not be different for any time of season or orbital location about the sun, or orientation of the beams, thereby producing a null result.

      In this case, although I have not studied Daryl's long replies, I would expect the 'gunslinger' on the left to receive the signal before the one on the right.

      Although I believe you are more interested in Special Relativity than General Relativity, I find Professor Vishwakarma's essay to be both very interesting and, I believe, supportive of my theory.

      I am personally frustrated by both your score and Daryl's score and Mark Feeley's score in this contest, but it is not worth expounding upon the reasons I perceive for this.

      Best,

      Edwin Eugene Klingman

      Hi Eckard,

      I think we're making progress on this misunderstanding. You wrote "I clearly pointed out that the outside observer does not matter, see also my suggestion 2", but remember that stating a point is very different from defending it, and although you had stated it above I saw no justification. I'll argue that your suggestion 2 is incorrect, but in order to do that I think there's another misunderstanding to clear up. Your next sentence, "There is no reason to believe that an ideal observation acts upon the propagation of light", indicates that you think the outside observer would be thought of as somehow acting upon the light propagation, which couldn't be further from the truth. The outside observer is simply using a coordinate system appropriate to describe things from his point of view. He uses his proper time as the time, and spatial coordinates are defined so that light moves at c and the train moves in the x-direction with velocity v. If the length of the train is 2*x0, then x0 is the distance from either gunslinger to the signal. After the signal flashes a distance x0 from the gunslinger on the left, it moves to the left at speed c while the gunslinger moves to the right at speed v, so the distance that the signal has to travel, in the coordinate system that's used by the outside observer, is less than x0. Similarly, because the gunslinger on the right moves away from the location of the flash in this frame of reference, the signal has to travel a greater distance than x0.

      If you disagree that it's reasonable for the guy outside to describe things in a coordinate system that's stationary with respect to himself, such as milestones along the track, so that the train is described to have nonzero velocity from his point of view, then you need to explain this better. Everyone should be allowed to use coordinates that make sense to use from their perspective.

      Daryl