Daryl,

I'd love to say, Ah ha! I see your point, because you have been far more patient than anyone else in the physics community has ever been, but....

If I'm jogging along, however the larger frame is moving, there are basic physical reasons why my speed is constant, but with the speed of light, you remove the validity of a stable metric of space, assigning that the expanding scale, yet still take it as a constant for granted.

As you say, it "moves along null (ds=0) lines."

Wouldn't this constitute as basic a metric of space as you could describe?

Yet you then turn around and say, " the coordinate velocity of light certainly changes in time with a(t). As a(t) increases, light doesn't get as far along x in equal amounts of time."

The irony here is that since the coordinates increase, relative to that, the change in the coordinate velocity of light must be to slow, since it doesn't travel as far. Yet because you take the speed of light as a constant so much for granted, then the assumption is it is the coordinates which vary, ie. increase.

It is still the same problem; The coordinates grow further apart, while the speed of light remains constant. Which is the measure of space in this equation and which is the distance being measured?

Lets put it in the context of me jogging; Say I live in some funhouse reality, where my stride is constantly being warped and shrunk and swollen and there is no way to judge what each step will be. One might only be a few inches, while the next could be hundreds of feet. It would no longer be a useful constant now. So it is only because each is governed by the same processes and covers the same relative amount of ground that it can be considered a constant. The same goes for the speed of light. Whether the universe is 1m, or 2m, or 3m, m is still the constant. It is the distance between the coordinates that changes.

Dear Daryl

You said: people accepted it for centuries...

I don't think so, most people (including Newton himself) knew that totally empty space was an absurdity, but we have to understand the reason why Newton left space totally empty in his theory. Newton mostly agreed with Descartes' view of space. For Newton space was a substance and the medium that convey gravity between celestial bodies was the aether, but he realized that Descartes' view was so complicated to put it in mathematical terms that he decided to leave space in his theory as an empty container. As we all know, the empty container view of space is mathematically represented by Euclidean space. This is space, as we all know, has no substantial or material properties per se and the same occurs with any other geometrical space (you should check Riemann's original paper on this subject). The view that space was an empty container was always seen as an anomaly of Newton's theory but the anomaly remained for centuries because that was the only game in town since nobody could come up with a better formulation of space until Minkowski arrived in 1908. Similar to Euclidean space, Minkowski space-time represented emptiness although its metrical properties are certainly different (the discussion of Minkowski space-time as a real space is still a hot topic among the philosophers of science and some physicists, Veselin Pektov is one of the advocates of the physical existence of Minkowski space-time). When the aether was rejected in 1905, Einstein left space again totally empty, just as in Newton's theory. According to Newton's theory celestial bodies were interacting at a distance in totally empty space, which for Newton himself was an absurdity. At this point, it is convenient to quote Newton's opinion about this topic, I'd like to show you that he was basically following Descartes' view. The quote was taken from one of his letters sent to Bentley in 1692:

It is inconceivable that inanimate brute matter should, without the mediation of something else which is not material, operate upon and affect other matter, without mutual contact, as it must do if gravitation in the sense of Epicurus be essential and inherent in it. And this is one reason why I desired you would not ascribe 'innate gravity' to me. That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another at a distance, through a vacuum, without the mediation of anything else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking can ever fall into it.

So, as we all know, the discovery of Minkowski space-time didn't and doesn't solve the problem of how celestial bodies interact. Minkoswki space-time continues to be an empty container. At first, Einstein disliked Minkowski's formulation but later he recognized its scientific value. He realized that treating inertial frames in terms of space-time could be useful to extend his SR to non-inertial frames. Since, it is assumed that GR is an extension of SR, at some point the metrics in GR should reduce to the Minkowskian metric. He then argued that the Minkowskian metric is a special case of the general case g_ik where the gravitational potentials are contained. Einstein said that even if the energy-momentum tensor were zero, we still have the gravitational potentials contained in the metric tensor which at the end gives meaning to space. Minkowski metric, is then a special kind of gravitational potential with constant coefficients. According to Einstein, empty space is inconceivable, for him the g_ik tensor gives physical meaning to space, this object in Einstein view is the new "aether". But we should not mix the concepts, this is the metric of space not space itself. In Newton's theory the mathematical object that represents the notion of physical space is the Euclidean manifold not its metric. Similarly, in GR what represents space-time is not the g_ik but the pseudo-Riemannian manifold. And a manifold has no intrinsic material or substantial properties associated with it. In GR, space is not a medium as Descartes' aether was. Space-time is still a container with metrical properties defined by its material content but the manifold itself doesn't represent a substance.

Now, Einstein said that g_ik is the fundamental field, but what is a field made of? If we ask this question to Maxwell, he would certainly reply that an electromagnetic field is a state of a material medium, in his time, such medium was the aether which filled the empty space. I must make clear that I don't follow this dichotomy, for me aether and space are the same thing, therefore, a field is a state of space, understanding space as a material substance and so one can say that space is a material field. The fact that the permeability and permittivity of the vacuum are not zero tells us that the vacuum behaves as a paramagnetic medium and only material substances have these electromagnetic properties. If space were Minkowskian these properties would be zero. In contrast, for Einstein, an electromagnetic field is a different entity from space, is a physical reality that fills and propagates through space. And for him the properties of space itself are defined by the metric tensor that gets its "substantiality" from the gravitational potentials. But again, this is not a medium in the sense of Descartes, Newton or Maxwell because a medium is material and has no curvature. It is absurd to talk of a curvature of a medium, that term only makes sense only for geometrical spaces (manifolds). I hope I had made clear why I don't follow the notion of geometrical space-time. I have read your discussion with John and I support's John's view. I think you are getting it in the wrong direction.

Best regards

Israel

  • [deleted]

By the way, did you hear about the work that claims that the universe is not expanding? The argument is that the mass of the particles in the past was different and that's the cause of the redshift that astronomers observe today, what do you think? I don't think the masses changed, that hypothesis cannot be experimentally proven. But it seems that it;s gaining support from some people.

http://www.nature.com/news/cosmologist-claims-universe-may-not-be-expanding-1.13379

Regards

Israel

And I think you're going in the wrong direction. C'est la vie. Regardless of what we think, though, it ultimately comes down to whether a consistent physical description can be formulated which consistently accounts for the phenomena, etc.

No I haven't read that article. I find much of physics these days to be purely speculative mathematics, motivated by a shut up and calculate dogma. Why think, when you can do advanced algebra? That's what that sounds like to me.

Thanks for sharing. I suppose that sounds insincere from what I wrote, so I should stress that I really do mean that. Sincerely,

Daryl

Hi John,

First of all, thanks. It means a lot to know that you appreciate my effort. Just to let you know, I appreciate you pressing the issue. It's good to think about these things, and always helps to reevaluate the justification of ones ideas.

Second of all, sorry I'm taking so long to respond. I'm traveling right now, with a few hours to kill in Zuerich, but won't be able to properly respond until after I'm settled. That may not be quick because I'll be busy while I'm here, so I'll post on your site again to let you know when I do.

Best regards,

Daryl

Hi John,

Yes I did get it as I was preparing for a trip. I've just arrived in Lausanne for a metaphysics of time workshop tomorrow, but I will read your essay. Thanks very much for reading mine, and for rating it (you gave it a 6, right?). I will read yours.

Daryl

Dear Daryl

You have your approach and I have mine. I think I'm right, you think you are. As you said: Regardless of what we think, though, it ultimately comes down to whether a consistent physical description can be formulated which consistently accounts for the phenomena, etc. I agree with this but perhaps you are ignoring one important component of science. There was a time in the past when science was about unveiling the true behind the appearances, but that view is in the past. Today science is more a business than science. I brought the case of that paper not to bother you but to let you know that the weight of media has something to do with the establishment of new approaches. You may wish to ignore it, but the general public will not. I'd like to quote something that Lee Smolin said and that I sympathize with:

Science is not about what's true or may be true... Science is about what people with originally diverse viewpoints can be forced to believe by the weight of public evidence.

"Public evidence" means "evidence widely known". As long as our ideas are not widely spread by mass media they'll be ignored by the physics community. I have read the story of how Einstein and his theory became famous and many commentators ask why the same situation didn't occur with QM. It was the mass media of that time, not the theory itself, that created the legend and the greatness of relativity and its author, not only among the general public but also among the physics community. Finally, I'd like to quote what Oliver Heaviside said in 1919 with respect to the understanding of gravity and the future of theoretical physics:

Newton, as was known, did not understand the nature of gravitation. We do not understand it now. Einstein's theory would not help us understand it. If Einstein's third prediction [gravitational redshift] were verified, Einstein's theory would dominate all higher physics and the next generation of mathematical physicists would have a terrible time. Such things as university courses for all practical purposes would be continued upon Galilean and Newtonian dynamics, but the Einstein school could not fail to interest, sooner or later, every intelligent man.

He sounds like prophet because he knew that the view of space and time of GR will blind future generations of physicists. Now, here we are all, a hundred years after still trying to unify gravity with the other forces and discussing these topics because after all we are starting to realize that GR didn't help us understand it.

All the best and don't be cranky, there's no reason to be like that, life is too short!

Israel

Dear Daryl,

I have studied your essay and this gave me further motivation to go back to the related Wheeler's paper you refer to.

I found your essay very well written and interesting.

"Understand the quantum as based on an utterly simple and -- when we see it -- completely obvious idea.

Explain existence by the same idea that explains the quantum...

Reduce time into subjugation to physics."

If you read my essay

http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1789

you will see that the Riemmann surface concept, favoured by Hermann Weyl, may be made in a good correspondance with the quantum.

Good luck,

Michel

Good Paper. Starts off slow, repeats the same stuff about Wheeler found in other essays in this contest. Then goes on to discuss our language issues with the notion of time, and makes some rather interesting points.

I wholeheartedly agree that Minkowski spacetime does not exist. However, the relationship between space and time does exist down the single direction of propagation of quantum particles, not in some empty manifold we call Minkowski space. "Elements of reality" are therefore bounded by the emitter and absorber atoms. This is where an "interval" in time can be considered. In section 3, your claim that "no interval of time exists..." needs a reference.

I am not convinced by the world-line argument. This is just another attempt to regenerate a form of simultaneity surfaces. World-lines do not exist unless something travels along it. I do not find the argument for block universe compelling, even if it is a dynamically warping and molding thing.

The section on Minkowski space was a little jumbled and confusing.

I enjoyed the description "relativity of synchronicity." Very nice.

This is a strong entry and I gave it a good rating. The author would have done better with a shorter introduction and a focus (in two sections) on the Newtonian and Einsteinian inconsistencies in the relativity of synchronicity, then in the concluding section added the claims of novelty that he wished to make.

All in all, a worthy paper I will look forward to reading other works from this Author.

Daryl,

Good luck on the trip. Not a problem getting back to this. Patience is a necessity. Not that I always have any, but I'm good at keeping myself distracted.

Hello Daryl

Richard Feynman in his Nobel Acceptance Speech (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/feynman-lecture.html)

said: "It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. And example of this is the Schrodinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why that is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature."

I too believe in the simplicity of nature, and I am glad that Richard Feynman, a Nobel-winning famous physicist, also believe in the same thing I do, but I had come to my belief long before I knew about that particular statement.

The belief that "Nature is simple" is however being expressed differently in my essay "Analogical Engine" linked to http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1865 .

Specifically though, I said "Planck constant is the Mother of All Dualities" and I put it schematically as: wave-particle ~ quantum-classical ~ gene-protein ~ analogy- reasoning ~ linear-nonlinear ~ connected-notconnected ~ computable-notcomputable ~ mind-body ~ Bit-It ~ variation-selection ~ freedom-determinism ... and so on.

Taken two at a time, it can be read as "what quantum is to classical" is similar to (~) "what wave is to particle." You can choose any two from among the multitudes that can be found in our discourses.

I could have put Schrodinger wave ontology-Heisenberg particle ontology duality in the list had it comes to my mind!

Since "Nature is Analogical", we are free to probe nature in so many different ways. And you have touched some corners of it.

Good Luck,

Than Tin

Hi Daryl,

Very nice. I agree entirely that no time, no existence! And if you want to talk of existence better you analyse space separately from time instead of using space-time. Exist appears over 80 times in your essay. I wonder what you will say if existence/non-existence can be implemented as a binary choice since you have properly defined what existence means. In a way my essay tries to make something out of this Bit.

All the best in the contest. To be well rated. Almost flawless.

Akinbo

    6 days later

    Hi Daryl,

    Your essay is an interesting read.

    I have one question, though. On page 9 you write at the end: "the former interpretation ... ultimately disproves itself by contradiction". From the context I understand that by "the former interpretation" you mean Einstein's interpretation of relativity. Correct me if I'm wrong. But if so, could you elaborate on that? How do you derive a contradiction from Einstein's relativity? Do you mean logical contradiction, or do you mean that it yields a contradiction with an assumed meaning of a term, that is, with a meaning that you give to some term?

    I'm interested in the answer.

    Best regards,

    Marcoen

      Hi Daryl,

      Thanks for introducing yourself at the conference this week... and for the interesting conversations!

      And while our disagreements *have existed*, I'm getting the feeling that we have many fewer disagreements that *exist*, and perhaps only modest disagreements *will exist* in the future.

      Or, in my language, perhaps our views "are" converging. (if not our terminology...) :-)

      Interesting essay... although I'm afraid I don't have much more to say about it that I didn't tell you in person, or in discussions on my page.

      All the best!

      Ken

        Hello Daryl,

        I've lost a lot of comments and replies on my thread and many other threads I have commented on over the last few days. This has been a lot of work and I feel like it has been a waste of time and energy. Seems to have happened to others too - if not all.

        I WILL ATTEMPT to revisit all threads to check and re-post something.

        For now I will rate your essay very highly and hopefully get back to comment later.

        Hopefully all the posts will be able to be retrieved by FQXi.

        Best wishes,

        Antony

          Dear Antony,

          Thanks so much! I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to your earlier post before now, but thanks very much for what you wrote there. I'm glad you liked my essay so much, and really appreciate your comment!! I've been really busy the past few weeks, on top of which I was staying in places with really poor wifi, so wasn't able to contribute to the contest much. I've read a few essays today, and yours was the next on my list after the one I'm currently reading, so you can expect to hear from me soon.

          All the best,

          Daryl

          Hi Ken,

          Thanks for dropping by and commenting. Yes, it was really nice to meet you at the conference. I agree that while our views remain ontologically very different, they are physically (i.e., not just empirically) equivalent, which from my point of view is a really good thing. As you know from my essay, and our discussions on- and off-line, that means something to me because I think (and I think you agree) that a lot of people on both sides of the dynamical/adynamical divide have the physical picture completely messed up--e.g., growing block-ers, and people who think of consciousness as crawling upwards along world-lines, or of the block as warping and changing, etc. It's good to have a consistent interpretation of the physics!

          No worries about not commenting on the essay directly here. I think we've sufficiently hashed out our views for now, although I do hope to keep in touch, and look forward to more discussion with you about the nature of time in the future.

          Good luck in the contest, and best wishes!

          Daryl

          Dear Marcoen,

          Thanks for reading my essay. You've asked a very good question, which puts me on the spot for having made a very strong claim at the end of my essay, and requires me to be accountable for it, although I had hoped it was justified sufficiently well from what I had previously written in the essay.

          I think Einstein's deduction of the relativity of simultaneity is more of a reductio ad absurdum than the derivation of a truly interesting result because he begins with the operational definition of simultaneity, and eventually shows that this is relative, which comes to mean that not only is each particular instant so described "simultaneous" in the representative frame, but really the whole block of events that occur throughout eternity has to be simultaneous all at once.

          The standard argument for this is given, e.g., in Ken Wharton's essay, and I've argued against that both here in my essay and again at length on Ken's page. Furthermore, since any meaningful definition of "simultaneity" at an instant already assumes a dynamical passage of time, I've argued for a different position in which passage is really fundamental, whereas Einstein began his first relativity paper by defining "simultaneity", and then went on to derive a picture in which the definition is meaningless anyway, for all intents and purposes.

          I hope that clarifies what I meant by that statement.

          All the best,

          Daryl