Tom,

Not only do storms radiate their energy back out, witness the damage, but large hurricanes spawn tornados, somewhat similar to galaxies spawning solar systems and solar systems spawning planetary systems.

Since my basic understanding of relativity very much does not explain how space can expand, irrespective of the speed of light, maybe you can enlighten me.

Now the basic premise is that nothing can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, yet light is slowed in other mediums, but since any clock in that medium is also slowed, it still measures the same. This effect also applies in a gravity field, yet this is supposedly not due to any physical medium, but the curvature of "spacetime." Such that in a gravitational field, not only are distances shrunk, but time is slowed as well. Eventually, by the edge of the black hole, time is practically standing still. Close enough?

So if you are to put this principle in reverse and say that space expands between galaxies, presumably the clock should speed up as well!!!

In that case, even though it is expanding, we will still get the same clock reading. x lightyears will always be x lightyears. But no, the ruler is not being stretched, just more units are needed. x lightyears becomes 2x lightyears. That's not relativistic. That's simply further apart!

I wait to be enlightened.

Regards, John M

Jim,

And that motion creates change. We don't have a changeless universe, or there would be no motion.

Regards, John M

"I wait to be enlightened."

That's stating the obvious, John. You might try cracking a book.

I'm reminded of a student who excitedly approached his yogi master after many years of practicing his quest for enlightenment, reporting that he managed the feat of teleporting himself across the river. "What?" answered the wide-eyed teacher, "Didn't you know you could cross on the ferry for ten cents?"

I can't teach you anything you could learn for yourself, if you wanted to.

Best,

Tom

Tom,

So in other words, you don't have an explanation for why what would seem a simple increase in distance is considered an example of relativity?

Why do you assume I haven't read anything? Do you think the idea just popped into my head? I have certainly raised this issue with a fair number of people and the most I get is some lame story about how the light is being "carried" by the expanding space. Doesn't anyone know what a denominator is?

Regards,

John M

"Why do you assume I haven't read anything? Do you think the idea just popped into my head?"

It might as well have.

John, expanding space is a solution to the equations of general relativity. Understand that, and you will understand why I say it's easier to learn the math than wait for things to pop into your head. Science isn't about enlightenment -- it's about objective knowledge.

Best,

Tom

Tom,

Thank you for coming up with something to work with. Can you cut and paste the part to resolve this issue and explain it in some depth. The math is above my level, but I'm just not seeing where the relativistic clock rate is being affected by this expansion of, rather than in, space.

Regards,

John M

Tom,

Just to clearly state the issue, so there isn't anymore beating around the bushes than necessary;

Clock rates slow as gravity contracts space/time. Correct/not?

So if space expands, how/where do clock rates increase/expand?

Regards,

John M

Sure, John.

"Clock rates slow as gravity contracts space/time. Correct/not?"

Incorrect. A clock is any regular process (e.g., oscillation of an atom under constant conditions; or the pendulum of a grandfather clock) by which we measure the passing rate of time in a given local inertial frame, by counting beats. If we remove an identical atom, or clock, further from the influence of the gravity field where we first synchronized the beats, and then bring the clocks back together, we will find that the clock that traveled outside the local frame has recorded fewer beats than the one that stayed at home. Why?

Newton showed (by the calculus he invented), from Galileo's results, that free falling bodies accelerate in a gravity field independent of their inertial mass, according to the rate of change squared. This applies whether the bodies fall in a straight line toward the center of the Earth, or in a curved trajectory -- so we can consider the local gravity source as a flat plane in which gravity accelerates bodies vertical to the plane, never horizontally.

Einstein found that because this vertical acceleration is indistinguishable in principle between some force pushing bodies upward and another force pulling bodies downward -- there is equivalence between inertial mass and gravitational mass, and therefore between gravity and acceleration.

This being true, then, a clock at rest in a gravity field, keeping time at a constant rate, when moving in the opposite direction of gravitational acceleration *must* record a slower rate the further it moves from the field -- because the increased rate caused by gravitational acceleration (rate of change squared) is in a sense "undone" by motion against the gravity field.

One might ask reasonably -- as perhaps you are -- why the moving clock doesn't simply return to its prior state of timekeeping when it rejoins the stay at home clock, so that we could never tell that the time changed at all? The answer is -- it does return to its prior state of local timekeeping. We know the moving clock has become "younger" than the Earthbound clock, however, because its *record* of beats is out of sync with the other. By accelerating against the gravity field, it gained time compared to the stay at home clock.

This relative gain/loss of measured elapsed time values tells us that time is not absolute. Gravity doesn't contract spacetime; gravity affects the trajectory of particles in spacetime.

"So if space expands, how/where do clock rates increase/expand?"

Only locally. "All physics is local," as Einstein said. If an observer were watching time pass on the face of the traveling clock, she would see that her own rate of time in that inertial frame is consistent with the clock time. An observer watching the Earthbound clock would see that his own time is consistent with his clock. Because all motion is relative, though, the Earthbound observer can say that the moving clock is slow compared to his own -- no, says the traveling clockwatcher, it's *your* clock that is slow there on Earth. And both are right.

Not until the clocks are brought back into the same inertial frame can we know that true time dilation has occurred -- the traveling clock really moved slower than the one that stayed at home. So long as the two clockwatchers were in relative uniform motion, their clocks were perfectly synchronized even though they each claimed the other's clock was fast or slow. Why?

Here, finally, is where space, speed of light constant, and the FRW metric come in.

Time dilation cannot be separated from length contraction when we speak of real measurement parameters. The contraction of time and space is covariant but not symmetric -- "We measure time with clocks," said Einstein, "We measure space with rods." You can do the calculation, and find that at about 85% of the speed of light, a body is contracted to about one-half its length at rest.

This is why special relativity as a bedrock physical principle finds that physical influences among bodies cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. Colloquially speaking, there is more space in the universe than time, and always will be; space can expand indefinitely, and bodies will never exchange physical influences faster than the speed of light. And because there are no isolated inertial systems, locality is preserved as complementary to special relativity everywhere in the universe.

General relativity extends and generalizes special relativity because it recognizes that there are no actually rigid rods. So when we speak of a metric, whether FRW or any metric measure, we need to simplify the measure to a flat space that accommodates the measure. Study 4.5 of the attachment, and you should understand why. To get a little technical, briefly:

One thing that even experienced teachers of general relativity often get wrong, is in describing the shape of the Riemannian manifold as curved space. Einstein's choice of the four dimensional Riemannian geometry, however, actually characterizes the space as a pseudo-Riemannian manifold of Lorentzian metric properties -- this is very important, because it tells us that the flat plane metric of Euclidean space applies all the way to the cosmological limit. (It also opens the door to more sophisticated topology, such as Joy Christian's, which we'll save for another time and another thread.)

All best,

Tom

Having now carefully read section 4.5, I would feel ashamed if I didn't recognize and credit its author, Andrew Hamilton at the University of Colorado. Fantastic job!

Incidentally, Prof. Hamilton is a fellow of JILA, the same lab where Deborah S. Jin is doing groundbreaking work in condensed matter physics.

Colorado and JILA -- you rock!

Tom

Marcel,

I missed seeing this. You write, "This aggregate only becomes the 'moon' when we perceive and conceive it as being there, entire, in one place and one moment. Get it?"

I get it, and answer 'so what?' One may create a moon in one's mind that corresponds to the moon external to one's mind. And? You are confusing metaphysical philosophy which has nothing to do with physics -- and metaphysical realism, which is the physics of objective reality.

" ... there is no space, lines or geometry as they are convenient projections."

Yes? Projections of what from where? Bon chance.

Tom

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Working on this, but rushing off now. Stand corrected on the first part. I thought the GPS clock goes faster, since it isn't slowed by gravity...

Tom,

Scratch that previous. Forgot to post it and am now back..

GPS clocks are faster...

A point about gravity, basically these measurements are done on the surface and I've heard that if you dropped something through a hole through the earth, it would accelerate to the midpoint and continue through almost to the other side before turning back. Wouldn't the gravitational attraction of all it passed by start to drag on it?

I'm still not seeing where what seems to be a basic doppler effect of recession is especially relativistic. I do remember the history of how it came to be, that first it was simply considered an expansion in space and the redshift was simply the doppler effect of these galaxies flying away from us. Then when it was observed that all those distant galaxies were redshifted proportional to distance, with no apparent lateral motion, so it would have to mean that all those distant galaxies were moving directly away from us, so we appeared to be at the center of the universe. Then it was described as a relativistic effect and not just an expansion in space, but an expansion of space, in order for us not to be at the center of the universe. Yet it does seem the same conventional doppler effect is still being used to explain the redshift, without any corresponding temporal relativistic effect.

Consider:

"This is why special relativity as a bedrock physical principle finds that physical influences among bodies cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. Colloquially speaking, there is more space in the universe than time, and always will be; space can expand indefinitely, and bodies will never exchange physical influences faster than the speed of light."

What is a vacuum, as in speed of light in a vacuum, if not a constant? If "space" can expand, why doesn't the "vacuum" expand as well, thus the speed of light keeps up with the expansion of space? It really goes to my point. The space between those two galaxies is expanding, but the "vacuum" is not, because it takes more time for the light to cross this distance???

Sorry if this is a disorganized post, as I'm trying to organize it in my head...

Regards,

John M

John,

I don`t think that time exists as a real force or thing. I do think that we have motion in our timeless Universe. We have change in our timeless Universe.

Sorry, John. We're not on the same page. In the same chapter. Or the same book. If you just want to riff, that's fine -- just don't expect me to play any more backup.

Best,

Tom

Tom,

If you can point me to the book which describes how that "space" and "vacuum" are separate properties, I would appreciate it.

As I said, sorry that post was a bit of thinking out loud.

Regards,

John M

Jim,

And time is both an effect of and way to measure that change. Much as temperature is both an effect of and way to measure thermodynamic activity. One is sequential and the other is scalar measure of activity.

Regards,

John M

John M,

As to second Tom:

In what are vacuum and space considered different? An early book explained this already in the title: Otto de Guericke: "Experimenta nova ut vocantur Magdeburgica de vacuo spatio". From this notion "empty space" you might infer that vacuo is a particular property of the subject spatio. Space (spatio) may or may not be empty (vacuo).

Of course, even empty (from matter) space may be imagined to contain e.g. electric fields that were already demonstrated also by Otto Gericke in 1660.

Michelson showed in 1881 that (more or less) empty space does not contain a light-carrying medium that was imagined to be in motion relative to earth.

Regards,

Eckard

John,

Eckard is right. Furthermore, both Descartes and Einstein repeated the aphorism, "There is no space empty of the field."

Tom

Eckard,

I realize space can be occupied. You and I occupy space. The fact is that the vacuum, empty space, that which light crosses at C, is thus being assigned a very specific dimensionality. You wouldn't say the vacuum expands or contracts relative to C, otherwise there would be no constant. Now if you and I were to walk away from each other, is that an expansion of space, or is it just increasing distance?

Consider the space between those galaxies is being denominated in lightyears, ie. if the universe expands to twice its current size, they would go from being x lightyears apart, to 2x lightyears apart. The distance is being denominated in the stable unit of lightyears. The numerator, x, 2x, is how many of these stable units there are between those points. There is no stretching of those units, only an increasing number of them.

At the top of this particular thread, John Cox made the following point; " You have to envision the theory model being it's own co=ordinate system, not in any particular reference frame."

The fact is that C, the speed of light in a vacuum, is the reference frame, the denominator, so space, the distance between you and I, or two galaxies billions of lightyears apart, is denominated in that stable reference frame.

Space is what you measure with a ruler and the cosmic ruler is C.

Regards,

John M