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Marcel

"that it is the absorption lines that Doppler shift"

The absorption of frequencies showing up in spectral analysis as gaps in the otherwise continuous (sic) visible spectrum, are the reason that we can determine that an attenuation of wavelength has occurred. The emission source does not emit those frequencies that it absorbs. In a spectrograph the full range of visible spectrum is present from a 'white light' source such as a distant galaxy, but those frequencies that are not emitted are gaps in the attenuated wavelengths. Hence an absorption line of an element that would be in the region of 'green' at the emission source, or laboratory, is 'shifted' towards 'yellow' when the distant source is receding from our observation at a significant rate of speed. The attenuation is of all frequencies emitted and so in the case of red shift, ultraviolet wavelengths are attenuated into visible violet and the far end of red is attenuated into infra red. The diffraction element in the instrument does not distinguish that, only the gaps of non-emitted frequency wavelengths.

I comprehend what you have said of Bill Unruh's work, I see he's quite prolific. I think where it is misunderstood conceptually is that it approaches the BETA function of the Fitzgerald Contraction from the perspective of light velocity being the benchmark from which a survey is protracted; whereas Lorentz explicitly reformulated it to protract from relative rest towards light velocity, and had stated his premise based on his theoretical prediction that an electric charge if contained in a smaller volume would exhibit greater mass. Your own application of Unruh to causality goes to density of energy in a rest mass, where Lorentz did not consider density in relation to velocity. jrc

John,

As you might recall, I don`t think that time exists as a real thing or force in reality. There is no such thing as time, to worm through.

Marcel,

It is a fact that our reality is what we experience, so the question is whether our experience creates some basic distortions that can be unraveled. An obvious example is the appearance of the sun traveling across the sky. For most of human history it was quite obvious the earth we stand on is the "firmament" and it was equally obvious the sun does move across the sky. Now we have a better understanding of our position in the cosmos.

Today it is equally obvious that time "flows" from past to future. Newton declared it an evidently universal flow, which Einstein amended to say it flows faster in some conditions than others.

Yet how could it be any other way?

Our experience is as singular entities, moving about in a larger, dynamic context. So while we function linearly, our situation is non-linear and reactive to our actions. Such that in a very physical level, our context effectively goes the opposite direction, in a very distributed fashion. So as we bounce from one event to the next, it really is in a larger equilibrium. What is the effect of this? The form changes, even if it does with a large amount of regularity, as one day follows another. So, as I keep asking, does the earth really travel this "flow of time" from yesterday to tomorrow, or does tomorrow become yesterday because the earth rotates?

All we see and all we can measure is action, so is time a measure of action, or is action an effect of time?

Of course, we still see the sun move across the sky and the ground seems endless...

Regards,

John M

Jim,

I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no such thing as time. Rather it is an effect, much like temperature. Could life exist without either time or temperature? We are a far more complex effect. That doesn't mean we are not real.

Regards,

John M

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Jim on 9/14

"I don't think time exists as a real thing or force in reality."

Aside from causality, if time must be inconsequential because there has yet to be a successful rationale that explains irreversibility as a natural function, the results from General Relativity are simply irrelevant.

It is not simply that in GR if space curves then what do you do about the space it's curved out of ? ... that's not the space it refers to. You have to envision the theory model being it's own co=ordinate system, not in any particular reference frame. Then anywhere in space localized conditions have a conceptualized framework on which to construct a realistic model.

Gravity is nature's way of conserving space. Removing 'force" is one thing, it's the product of mass and acceleration. Removing 'time' removes the rationale of conservation of space. Pretend there's more space in the universe than there is time to accommodate it all at once. Seen from that perspective... well...oppps.... that thing do kinda curl up on itself, don't it ! It's not the same thing as a mote of dust landing on freshly laid natural varnish so hard that it pushes out a wave and makes a fish-eye. Gravity isn't 'taking away' from space, it's giving it room. jrc

    John C,

    This effect has do to measuring mass points, which do draw together. Yet what expands? Radiation. When you actually consider any gravitational system, it is not a neat inward flow, but leaks radiation, often tremendous amounts. Which eventually cools and then....

    The situation with math is that as conceptual reductionism, various aspects of the larger reality have to be cut/distilled/chipped away, in order to examine the parts you want to see. It is a necessary aspect of knowledge, but then when these "hard parts" get treated as somehow more real than the soft parts, things start to not make sense.

    Regards,

    john M

    John C,

    "You have to envision the theory model being it's own co=ordinate system, not in any particular reference frame. Then anywhere in space localized conditions have a conceptualized framework on which to construct a realistic model."

    My hat is off to you, John C, for being the one voice who actually understands the principles of Einstein's theory, in this morass of confused rhetoric.

    Best,

    Tom

    Tom,

    To which Einstein felt compelled to add the cosmological constant, in order to counteract the effect of gravity, when radiation would seem to have all the properties of already doing so. Remember it is by the redshift of light that space is said to expand and if this is actually due to a function of distance, since it is proportional to distance, then there are a lot of loose ends which could be tied up to other loose ends and we wouldn't need to keep adding garbage out.

    Regards,

    John M

    John M,

    See my post in the "Disproofs ..." thread 15 Sept 10:09 GMT. Please reply here, however, rather than there.

    Best,

    Tom

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    John,

    "Could life exist without either time or temperature?"

    Life does exist without time being a real thing. We don`t need time to exist as something real. All we need, and have, is duration elapsing.

    In our conscious experience of duration elapsing, we assume time is passing, as if time itself were something real.

    The Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism responsible for maintaining our confusion over the nature of time.

    We have motion in our timeless universe.

    Tom,

    And I think the common field source is the field, ie. space, not a singularity, but I'll spare us both.

    Regards,

    John M

    John, you're conflating two entirely different things. The singularity at creation (big bang) speaks to all space, time, and matter-energy compressed into an unimaginably dense state. A singularity in geometry, is space collapsed to a point; i.e., a local region of a plane or spherical manifold (in general relativity, a black hole with a theoretical singularity at its center).

    There are no singularities in quantum mechanics, because the model is two-dimensional. That's why it is described in complex Hilbert space, which is a 2-dimension space.

    Quantum field theory singularities are conical, i.e., like the "gravity wells" at malls and science museums that you let coins roll down. That's not exactly space collapsed to a point, though one doesn't know where the point ends and the 1 or 2 dimensional space begins.

    So yes -- the common field source is believed to be the quantum field, which is an extension of general relativity. We've always known -- even Einstein knew, and wrote about it extensively -- that general relativity, while mathematically complete, is an incomplete description of physical reality *because* it could not prevent the formation of singularities.

    Best,

    Tom

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    Tom,

    Thanks for the encouragement, my Mom liked to joke saying I was slow but good with my hands. In all the rehash of foundational precepts, which were quite advanced in their day, it's easy to loose sight of just how targeted to the state of knowledge those enduring ones really are. I find myself always saying, "Now John, can you really make that fit what you want to think today?"

    jrc

      Tom,

      The only two actual physical black holes/singularities that come to mind are galactic cores and binary stars. Galaxies certainly radiate lots of energy before whatever left falls into that core and then there are the jets of cosmic rays and plasma bubbles coming out. While binary stars eventually go supernova, when they reach a certain density/size. So it does seem to me, the infalling side of the equation is only half the picture. I just can't get worked up over a model which ignores half the action.

      As for the whole Big Bang scenario, no one has yet explained to me the logic of arguing space expands, yet still assuming a constant speed of light. How can you denominate the distance in constant units and then say space itself is expanding, not simply that the distance is increasing? Doesn't anyone remember elementary school math when they get to the complicated stuff? If two galaxies are x lightyears apart and they expand to being 2x lightyears apart, your denominator is the stable units of C. Your expansion is the numerator. It is not expanding units. It is an increasing number of stable units. None of this "the light's just being carried along by the expansion nonsense." Remember, even Einstein said, "Space is what you measure with a ruler." and the ruler, the denominator, the units the space is being denominated in, are lightyears!!!!!!

      If the theory can't even correspond to the most basic math, why bother trying to argue over all the handwaving that comes after?

      Regards,

      John M

      "general relativity, while mathematically complete, is an incomplete description of physical reality *because* it could not prevent the formation of singularities."

      "the infalling side of the equation is only half the picture."

      "If the theory can't even correspond to the most basic math, why bother trying to argue over all the handwaving that comes after?"

      John, the scientific handwaving at least corresponds to the math. What does your handwaving correspond to?

      Best,

      Tom

      Tom,

      Another point to consider about black holes and gravity; If you were to tunnel to the center of the earth, would you find a small singularity there, or would it just be lots of pressure and heat, since the gravitational attraction would all be outward to all the mass surrounding you? Even if you reached the center of the sun? Why wouldn't this principle apply to the center of the galaxy?

      Gravity as a singularity seems to be an artifact of modeling it from the surface/a point outside the actual gravitational center. The center seems to be the eye of the storm, rather than an infinite regression.

      Regards, John M

      Tom,

      This isn't some game of schoolyard, 'Well you are too!" I asked a simple question, how can it be argued that space expands, if the theory still uses a constant measure?

      Regards, john M

      "The center seems to be the eye of the storm, rather than an infinite regression."

      John, the eye of the storm *is* an infinite regression.

      "I asked a simple question, how can it be argued that space expands, if the theory still uses a constant measure?"

      I gave you a simple answer: relativity.

      Best,

      Tom

      John C, there are advantages to being "slow," aren't there? (I am, too.) You have a delightful way to express the primary role that theory plays in the quest for objective knowledge.

      Best,

      Tom