• [deleted]

John,

"Could life exist without either time or temperature?"

Life does exist without time being a real thing. We don`t need time to exist as something real. All we need, and have, is duration elapsing.

In our conscious experience of duration elapsing, we assume time is passing, as if time itself were something real.

The Earth`s rotational motion is the fundamental physical mechanism responsible for maintaining our confusion over the nature of time.

We have motion in our timeless universe.

Tom,

And I think the common field source is the field, ie. space, not a singularity, but I'll spare us both.

Regards,

John M

John, you're conflating two entirely different things. The singularity at creation (big bang) speaks to all space, time, and matter-energy compressed into an unimaginably dense state. A singularity in geometry, is space collapsed to a point; i.e., a local region of a plane or spherical manifold (in general relativity, a black hole with a theoretical singularity at its center).

There are no singularities in quantum mechanics, because the model is two-dimensional. That's why it is described in complex Hilbert space, which is a 2-dimension space.

Quantum field theory singularities are conical, i.e., like the "gravity wells" at malls and science museums that you let coins roll down. That's not exactly space collapsed to a point, though one doesn't know where the point ends and the 1 or 2 dimensional space begins.

So yes -- the common field source is believed to be the quantum field, which is an extension of general relativity. We've always known -- even Einstein knew, and wrote about it extensively -- that general relativity, while mathematically complete, is an incomplete description of physical reality *because* it could not prevent the formation of singularities.

Best,

Tom

  • [deleted]

Tom,

Thanks for the encouragement, my Mom liked to joke saying I was slow but good with my hands. In all the rehash of foundational precepts, which were quite advanced in their day, it's easy to loose sight of just how targeted to the state of knowledge those enduring ones really are. I find myself always saying, "Now John, can you really make that fit what you want to think today?"

jrc

    Tom,

    The only two actual physical black holes/singularities that come to mind are galactic cores and binary stars. Galaxies certainly radiate lots of energy before whatever left falls into that core and then there are the jets of cosmic rays and plasma bubbles coming out. While binary stars eventually go supernova, when they reach a certain density/size. So it does seem to me, the infalling side of the equation is only half the picture. I just can't get worked up over a model which ignores half the action.

    As for the whole Big Bang scenario, no one has yet explained to me the logic of arguing space expands, yet still assuming a constant speed of light. How can you denominate the distance in constant units and then say space itself is expanding, not simply that the distance is increasing? Doesn't anyone remember elementary school math when they get to the complicated stuff? If two galaxies are x lightyears apart and they expand to being 2x lightyears apart, your denominator is the stable units of C. Your expansion is the numerator. It is not expanding units. It is an increasing number of stable units. None of this "the light's just being carried along by the expansion nonsense." Remember, even Einstein said, "Space is what you measure with a ruler." and the ruler, the denominator, the units the space is being denominated in, are lightyears!!!!!!

    If the theory can't even correspond to the most basic math, why bother trying to argue over all the handwaving that comes after?

    Regards,

    John M

    "general relativity, while mathematically complete, is an incomplete description of physical reality *because* it could not prevent the formation of singularities."

    "the infalling side of the equation is only half the picture."

    "If the theory can't even correspond to the most basic math, why bother trying to argue over all the handwaving that comes after?"

    John, the scientific handwaving at least corresponds to the math. What does your handwaving correspond to?

    Best,

    Tom

    Tom,

    Another point to consider about black holes and gravity; If you were to tunnel to the center of the earth, would you find a small singularity there, or would it just be lots of pressure and heat, since the gravitational attraction would all be outward to all the mass surrounding you? Even if you reached the center of the sun? Why wouldn't this principle apply to the center of the galaxy?

    Gravity as a singularity seems to be an artifact of modeling it from the surface/a point outside the actual gravitational center. The center seems to be the eye of the storm, rather than an infinite regression.

    Regards, John M

    Tom,

    This isn't some game of schoolyard, 'Well you are too!" I asked a simple question, how can it be argued that space expands, if the theory still uses a constant measure?

    Regards, john M

    "The center seems to be the eye of the storm, rather than an infinite regression."

    John, the eye of the storm *is* an infinite regression.

    "I asked a simple question, how can it be argued that space expands, if the theory still uses a constant measure?"

    I gave you a simple answer: relativity.

    Best,

    Tom

    John C, there are advantages to being "slow," aren't there? (I am, too.) You have a delightful way to express the primary role that theory plays in the quest for objective knowledge.

    Best,

    Tom

    Tom,

    Not only do storms radiate their energy back out, witness the damage, but large hurricanes spawn tornados, somewhat similar to galaxies spawning solar systems and solar systems spawning planetary systems.

    Since my basic understanding of relativity very much does not explain how space can expand, irrespective of the speed of light, maybe you can enlighten me.

    Now the basic premise is that nothing can exceed the speed of light in a vacuum, yet light is slowed in other mediums, but since any clock in that medium is also slowed, it still measures the same. This effect also applies in a gravity field, yet this is supposedly not due to any physical medium, but the curvature of "spacetime." Such that in a gravitational field, not only are distances shrunk, but time is slowed as well. Eventually, by the edge of the black hole, time is practically standing still. Close enough?

    So if you are to put this principle in reverse and say that space expands between galaxies, presumably the clock should speed up as well!!!

    In that case, even though it is expanding, we will still get the same clock reading. x lightyears will always be x lightyears. But no, the ruler is not being stretched, just more units are needed. x lightyears becomes 2x lightyears. That's not relativistic. That's simply further apart!

    I wait to be enlightened.

    Regards, John M

    Jim,

    And that motion creates change. We don't have a changeless universe, or there would be no motion.

    Regards, John M

    "I wait to be enlightened."

    That's stating the obvious, John. You might try cracking a book.

    I'm reminded of a student who excitedly approached his yogi master after many years of practicing his quest for enlightenment, reporting that he managed the feat of teleporting himself across the river. "What?" answered the wide-eyed teacher, "Didn't you know you could cross on the ferry for ten cents?"

    I can't teach you anything you could learn for yourself, if you wanted to.

    Best,

    Tom

    Tom,

    So in other words, you don't have an explanation for why what would seem a simple increase in distance is considered an example of relativity?

    Why do you assume I haven't read anything? Do you think the idea just popped into my head? I have certainly raised this issue with a fair number of people and the most I get is some lame story about how the light is being "carried" by the expanding space. Doesn't anyone know what a denominator is?

    Regards,

    John M

    "Why do you assume I haven't read anything? Do you think the idea just popped into my head?"

    It might as well have.

    John, expanding space is a solution to the equations of general relativity. Understand that, and you will understand why I say it's easier to learn the math than wait for things to pop into your head. Science isn't about enlightenment -- it's about objective knowledge.

    Best,

    Tom

    Tom,

    Thank you for coming up with something to work with. Can you cut and paste the part to resolve this issue and explain it in some depth. The math is above my level, but I'm just not seeing where the relativistic clock rate is being affected by this expansion of, rather than in, space.

    Regards,

    John M

    Tom,

    Just to clearly state the issue, so there isn't anymore beating around the bushes than necessary;

    Clock rates slow as gravity contracts space/time. Correct/not?

    So if space expands, how/where do clock rates increase/expand?

    Regards,

    John M

    Sure, John.

    "Clock rates slow as gravity contracts space/time. Correct/not?"

    Incorrect. A clock is any regular process (e.g., oscillation of an atom under constant conditions; or the pendulum of a grandfather clock) by which we measure the passing rate of time in a given local inertial frame, by counting beats. If we remove an identical atom, or clock, further from the influence of the gravity field where we first synchronized the beats, and then bring the clocks back together, we will find that the clock that traveled outside the local frame has recorded fewer beats than the one that stayed at home. Why?

    Newton showed (by the calculus he invented), from Galileo's results, that free falling bodies accelerate in a gravity field independent of their inertial mass, according to the rate of change squared. This applies whether the bodies fall in a straight line toward the center of the Earth, or in a curved trajectory -- so we can consider the local gravity source as a flat plane in which gravity accelerates bodies vertical to the plane, never horizontally.

    Einstein found that because this vertical acceleration is indistinguishable in principle between some force pushing bodies upward and another force pulling bodies downward -- there is equivalence between inertial mass and gravitational mass, and therefore between gravity and acceleration.

    This being true, then, a clock at rest in a gravity field, keeping time at a constant rate, when moving in the opposite direction of gravitational acceleration *must* record a slower rate the further it moves from the field -- because the increased rate caused by gravitational acceleration (rate of change squared) is in a sense "undone" by motion against the gravity field.

    One might ask reasonably -- as perhaps you are -- why the moving clock doesn't simply return to its prior state of timekeeping when it rejoins the stay at home clock, so that we could never tell that the time changed at all? The answer is -- it does return to its prior state of local timekeeping. We know the moving clock has become "younger" than the Earthbound clock, however, because its *record* of beats is out of sync with the other. By accelerating against the gravity field, it gained time compared to the stay at home clock.

    This relative gain/loss of measured elapsed time values tells us that time is not absolute. Gravity doesn't contract spacetime; gravity affects the trajectory of particles in spacetime.

    "So if space expands, how/where do clock rates increase/expand?"

    Only locally. "All physics is local," as Einstein said. If an observer were watching time pass on the face of the traveling clock, she would see that her own rate of time in that inertial frame is consistent with the clock time. An observer watching the Earthbound clock would see that his own time is consistent with his clock. Because all motion is relative, though, the Earthbound observer can say that the moving clock is slow compared to his own -- no, says the traveling clockwatcher, it's *your* clock that is slow there on Earth. And both are right.

    Not until the clocks are brought back into the same inertial frame can we know that true time dilation has occurred -- the traveling clock really moved slower than the one that stayed at home. So long as the two clockwatchers were in relative uniform motion, their clocks were perfectly synchronized even though they each claimed the other's clock was fast or slow. Why?

    Here, finally, is where space, speed of light constant, and the FRW metric come in.

    Time dilation cannot be separated from length contraction when we speak of real measurement parameters. The contraction of time and space is covariant but not symmetric -- "We measure time with clocks," said Einstein, "We measure space with rods." You can do the calculation, and find that at about 85% of the speed of light, a body is contracted to about one-half its length at rest.

    This is why special relativity as a bedrock physical principle finds that physical influences among bodies cannot exceed the speed of light in a vacuum. Colloquially speaking, there is more space in the universe than time, and always will be; space can expand indefinitely, and bodies will never exchange physical influences faster than the speed of light. And because there are no isolated inertial systems, locality is preserved as complementary to special relativity everywhere in the universe.

    General relativity extends and generalizes special relativity because it recognizes that there are no actually rigid rods. So when we speak of a metric, whether FRW or any metric measure, we need to simplify the measure to a flat space that accommodates the measure. Study 4.5 of the attachment, and you should understand why. To get a little technical, briefly:

    One thing that even experienced teachers of general relativity often get wrong, is in describing the shape of the Riemannian manifold as curved space. Einstein's choice of the four dimensional Riemannian geometry, however, actually characterizes the space as a pseudo-Riemannian manifold of Lorentzian metric properties -- this is very important, because it tells us that the flat plane metric of Euclidean space applies all the way to the cosmological limit. (It also opens the door to more sophisticated topology, such as Joy Christian's, which we'll save for another time and another thread.)

    All best,

    Tom