An Insight into Information, Entanglement and Time by Paul L. Borrill

Dear Sir,

We have replied to you in our thread. Before we comment on your essay, we must clarify that we do not assume or consider anything or any theory as given. We examine everything from empirical perspective using precise definitions. Thus, our views are usually different from others. We are confused after reading your essay. Kindly spare some time to clarify it to us.

In the statistical method, observation remains non-deterministic because it is not related to individual measurements, but only to the minimal and maximal boundary conditions like the position of an electron in orbit around nucleus. You cannot apply this idea to "reality is timeless inside entangled systems, i.e., it continually evolves and cycles through its recurrence, defined by the available number of states", because your description shows sequence, which is used to perceive time. Unlike mass, space and time have no physical existence. We designate the interval between objects as time and that of events as time. Since they do not have physical reality, we designate them through alternative symbolism of objects and events, which are different from space and time or spacetime. Thus, the concept of sub-time is absurd, though reversible information exchange is frequently used. The velocity of photon is neither smooth, nor monotonic or irreversible background in time.

How do you assume "information is associated with the propagation of a photon?" Information is not data that is transmitted. Information is specific data reporting the state of something based on observation (measurements), organized and summarized for a purpose within a context that gives it meaning and relevance and can lead to either an increase in understanding or decrease in uncertainty. Perception is the processing of the result of measurements of different but related fields of something with some stored data to convey a combined form "it is like that", where "it" refers to an object (constituted of bits) and "that" refers to a concept signified by the object (self-contained representation).

Similarly, how do you "postulate sub-time is inextricably intertwined with space along the one-dimensional path defined by the photon traversal between emitter and absorber atoms?" Transverse waves are always characterized by particle motion being perpendicular to the wave motion. This implies the existence of a three dimensional medium through which the two dimensional reference wave travels and with respect to which the transverse wave travels in a perpendicular direction. In the absence of the reference wave, which is a longitudinal wave, the transverse wave can not be characterized as such. All transverse waves are background invariant by its very definition. All motions take place in space and time. Thus, how do you "dispense entirely with the notion that a background of time exists, along with any sense of future or past, between isolated entangled systems?" After all, the two waves are entangled.

Photon exchange indicates the change in direction of the application of energy. Consider an example: A B → C D. Here a force makes A interact with B to produce C and D. The same force doesn't act on C and D as they don't exist at that stage. If we change the direction of the force, B acts on A. Here only the direction of force and not the interval between the states before and after application of force (time) will change and the equation will be: B A → C D and not B A ← C D. Hence it does not affect causality. There can be no negative direction for time or cause and effect. You also subscribe to this view later in your essay while talking about entanglement. Only there you start a reverse cycle with C and D in place of A and B. Then how do you claim "Only when the entangled system decoheres into the environment of other entangled systems (through the exchange of photons) does time emerge as progressively irreversible, providing persistent evolution of information at the macroscopic scale"?

The result of measurement is always related to a time t, and is frozen for use at later times t', t'', etc, when the object has evolved further. All other unknown states are combined together and are called superposition of states. Hence there is an uncertainty inherent in it, which Shannon calls entropy. Indiscernibility such as the difference of time in the observation of an object, its description through a language and the perception of the object as described by that language can sometimes be designated as a superposition of states. Entanglement of quantum states of composite systems of two or more atoms cannot be a consequence of the principle of superposition. Contrary to the descriptions of EPR, entanglement does not physically last over long distances. Entanglement always indicates confinement, which means they are in a well defined boundary or state. Hence it cannot be a superposition. Further, since they are continuously changing their states ('a state of reversible change' - as you put it), which are 'events', it happens in the background of time (interval between events).

Can you show us something that does not change at all? Everything is made up of elementary particles and fundamental energies, which always change their state. How can time stand still? Time may stand still only outside the Universes, which cannot be perceived at all. We measure analog time by observing some fairly repetitive (cyclic) and easily intelligible events and taking it as the scaling constant (unit). Generally we use the duration of the day or year, which are natural units and subdivide it to get the duration of second. Even atomic clocks, which define a second as the duration of 9192631770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom, retain the natural duration by averaging many readings of the cesium clocks in GPS, as they are individually not accurate. While the analog time is smooth and monotonous, the digitized time, when used to measure the intervals of events, is not so.

(Further). We are also surprised to see these deleted. However, we are publishing it again. The following was posted to our thread:

"Thank you for your comments. We apologize for our clumsy presentation, because we do not subscribe to reductionism. We start from the creation event and come down to explain everything from a common source unlike others, who do the opposite. Thus, to others, our paper may seem like jumbled up. Space constraint also forced us to squeeze. We did not give any reference because there is no scientific paper in our knowledge, which talks about these issues from the same perspective. For example, several persons have questioned time dilation. But our views are distinctly different from others. It contained in a book written by us on 30-06-2005. But it is much more clumsy.

After your post we read the paper of Dr. Bakhoum, E. G. He says: 'the process of "observing" a photon necessarily means its destruction, and hence the "observation" of the event will be carried out in the moving frame S' only'. In our essay, we do not accept that the process of observation affects reality. In fact, in one of the threads here, we had quoted from a ninth century book to refute it. In some other threads we have explained the GPS result as due to changing refractive index of the Earth's atmosphere and the outer space. Regarding photon, we have explained in our essay that it is the motion of the intersection of the electric field and the magnetic field. Thus, it is ever changing. In open space, it must have the maximum velocity.

Similarly, Dr. Bakhoum, E. G. says: "muons traveling with a velocity v ≈ c are observed to survive longer than muons that travel with velocities that are much less than c". We explain it by pointing out to the cause of such slower motion. It must be the changing refractive index due to differential density of the medium. This would generate higher friction, so that the muon dies down early. "

Regarding your latest post, this is our view:

A.2. Before talking about sub-time or classical time, you must define time and justify its divisions into sub-time or classical time. We have defined time precisely and hold that there cannot be anything like sub-time or classical time.

A.3. Photon propagation is the mechanism for transmission of signals. It has to be received, stored and interpreted to be information. Information is the cognitive content and not mechanical process.

A.4. We are pointing out the defects in your postulate, which makes it self-contradictory. We have said earlier that we do not accept anything or any view of any one unless we verify it empirically. Hence kindly modify your reply to answer to the issues raised by us.

A.5. We have questioned your statement by giving the example that entanglement does not decohere into the environment of other entangled systems, and time and causality are irreversible. The n-p chain is another example of our statement.

A.6. & A.7. The fact that you are alive and communicating shows that there is background time. Can you say it is non-existent? Can you show that sub-time or classical time are the only reality? Till that time, your premise is wrong and your conclusions are obviously wrong.

A.8. We had read your essay fully; otherwise we could not have made the comment. We do not believe in name dropping or references as we examine everything independently through empirical evidence before accepting or rejecting or reserving our opinion. Hence we ask questions.

Regards,

basudeba

Dear Paul,

Quantum entanglement indicates the existence of discrete-time with physical phenomena and this sub-time is expressional with discrete systems also, whereas this sub-time is essentially to be external to a noumenon or a system to describe the dynamics involved in a noumenon or a system.

As the particles are considered as zero-dimensional nothing inside the particles to be described in reference with spin period of time; whereas in eigen-rotational string, configuration space of tetrahedral-brane describes loculated vacuum fluctuation.

This indicates that noumenon within noumenon or system within a system, is essential to demonstrate discrete sub-time and thus holarchy of nature to be defined to measure sub-time, whereas the emergence of time is external to each noumenon or system.

In particle scenario, time and sub-time are linear and infinite, whereas in string-matter continuum scenario, time emerges as cyclic in reference with holarchial cyclic-times, while each cycle of time is finite and emerges external to the eigen-rotational cycle of string-segment and thus a linear flow of time with discrete cyclic-time is expressional.

With best wishes,

Jayakar

Paul,

I very much enjoyed reading your essay which I found facinating, original, well organised, well written and nicely argued.

I agree your quite new 'two types of time' but have discussed a different if analogous conception relating to kinetics and two types of speed, 'propagation' in a medium and observer rest frame, and "apparent" or arbitrary. Apparent time reversal is then, as you suggest, of course perfectly possible. Distant analogies with 'Proper' and 'co-ordinate' time also seem to exist.

I was made to think more deeply abpout my own foundational ideas, which was good.I must also follow up on Poynting's 'twist waves on a photon shaft' which I find an important conception relating to an EPR paradox resolution I describe. Do you have a good link?

I think you deserve a good score even for originality alone! I hope you'll also find time to read, like and score mine, where hidden likenesses and loose analogies exist, (but you may need to read the foundations in my previous essay to find them). I'll be interested in your views. Do ignore the dense abstract and see the blog posts for a review.

Well done, and very best wishes

Peter

Dear All

A standard-issue big city all-glass high-rise stands across the street from my usual bus stop. When I look up the high-rise facade, I can see the reflections of the near-by buildings and the white clouds from the sky above. Even when everything else looks pretty much the same, the reflections of the clouds are different, hour to hour and day to day.

After I boarded the bus, I rushed to get a single seat facing four others on a slightly elevated platorm. From my vantage point, I can't help noticing the shoes of the four passengers across from my seat are not the same, by either the make , the design, or the style, and that is true even when the four passengers happen to be members of the same family.

I could change the objects of my fascination from shoes to something else, to buttons on the dresses for example, but I do not think the result would have been any different. Diversity or Uniqueness would still rule the day! (There is a delightful essay on the subject of uniqueness by Joe Fisher in this contest.)

I am pretty sure people are fascinated by the diversity and the uniqueness in the world, when the other side of it is the inevitable boredom of sameness every time.

However, we have a need to know where all this beautiful and enchanting diversity comes from. Borrowing Wheelerian phraseology of "How come the quantum?", I ask "How come the diversity?" A standard physics answer is "Entropy always increases." (I am not a physicist, and I don't know if that is the final answer.)

Whenever I'm out of my depth, I go back to my theory of everything (TOE), which is a mental brew of common sense, intuition, gut, analogy, judgement, etc. etc. , buttressed when I can with a little thought-experiment.

The thought-experiment is simple. Imagine cutting a circle into two precisely, identical, and equal parts. Practically, there is no way we can get the desired result, because one part will be bigger or smaller in some way.

Physics - especially quantum physics - says it don't matter, do the superposition!

But superposition is fictive, an invention like the Macarena dance, and it has given us a cat, alive and dead at the same time.

I have heard that angels can dance on the tip of the needle, and now I'm finding out some of us can too!

Cheers and Good Luck to All,

Than Tin

Paul,

I am rather intrigued by your paper. I will confess that I think this perspective on time may apply to quantum gravity. I will have to read your paper again to firm up my understanding. The two competing ideas are string theory and loop quantum gravity. In LQG gravitation is background independent. However, this is based ultimately on a classical formalism of general relativity where time does not exist. String theory on the other hand has time, but it is not background independent. It also works best in a holographic perspective where one dimension is reduced near an event horizon. The string/M-theory approach is also best looked at in a dual gauge approach with Yangians, which has some overlap with braid constructions in LQG. So there may be some duality here that has some bearing on your idea about time and entanglement.

Cheers LC

Having read so many insightful essays, I am probably not the only one to find that my views have crystallized, and that I can now move forward with growing confidence. I cannot exactly say who in the course of the competition was most inspiring - probably it was the continuous back and forth between so many of us. In this case, we should all be grateful to each other.

If I may, I'd like to express some of my newer conclusions - by themselves, so to speak, and independently of the logic that justifies them; the logic is, of course, outlined in my essay.

I now see the Cosmos as founded upon positive-negative charges: It is a binary structure and process that acquires its most elemental dimensional definition with the appearance of Hydrogen - one proton, one electron.

There is no other interaction so fundamental and all-pervasive as this binary phenomenon: Its continuance produces our elements - which are the array of all possible inorganic variants.

Once there exists a great enough correlation between protons and electrons - that is, once there are a great many Hydrogen atoms, and a great many other types of atoms as well - the continuing Cosmic binary process arranges them all into a new platform: Life.

This phenomenon is quite simply inherent to a Cosmos that has reached a certain volume of particles; and like the Cosmos from which it evolves, life behaves as a binary process.

Life therefore evolves not only by the chance events of natural selection, but also by the chance interactions of its underlying binary elements.

This means that ultimately, DNA behaves as does the atom - each is a particle defined by, and interacting within, its distinct Vortex - or 'platform'.

However, as the cosmic system expands, simple sensory activity is transformed into a third platform, one that is correlated with the Organic and Inorganic phenomena already in existence: This is the Sensory-Cognitive platform.

Most significantly, the development of Sensory-Cognition into a distinct platform, or Vortex, is the event that is responsible for creating (on Earth) the Human Species - in whom the mind has acquired the dexterity to focus upon itself.

Humans affect, and are affected by, the binary field of Sensory-Cognition: We can ask specific questions and enunciate specific answers - and we can also step back and contextualize our conclusions: That is to say, we can move beyond the specific, and create what might be termed 'Unified Binary Fields' - in the same way that the forces acting upon the Cosmos, and holding the whole structure together, simultaneously act upon its individual particles, giving them their motion and structure.

The mind mimics the Cosmos - or more exactly, it is correlated with it.

Thus, it transpires that the role of chance decreases with evolution, because this dual activity (by which we 'particularize' binary elements, while also unifying them into fields) clearly increases our control over the foundational binary process itself.

This in turn signifies that we are evolving, as life in general has always done, towards a new interaction with the Cosmos.

Clearly, the Cosmos is participatory to a far greater degree than Wheeler imagined - with the evolution of the observer continuously re-defining the system.

You might recall the logic by which these conclusions were originally reached in my essay, and the more detailed structure that I also outline there. These elements still hold; the details stated here simply put the paradigm into a sharper focus, I believe.

With many thanks and best wishes,

John

jselye@gmail.com

Dear Sir,

We have replied to you in our thread. Before we comment on your essay, we must clarify that we do not assume or consider anything or any theory as given. We examine everything from empirical perspective using precise definitions. Thus, our views are usually different from others. We are confused after reading your essay. Kindly spare some time to clarify it to us.

In the statistical method, observation remains non-deterministic because it is not related to individual measurements, but only to the minimal and maximal boundary conditions like the position of an electron in orbit around nucleus. You cannot apply this idea to "reality is timeless inside entangled systems, i.e., it continually evolves and cycles through its recurrence, defined by the available number of states", because your description shows sequence, which is used to perceive time. Unlike mass, space and time have no physical existence. We designate the interval between objects as time and that of events as time. Since they do not have physical reality, we designate them through alternative symbolism of objects and events, which are different from space and time or spacetime. Thus, the concept of sub-time is absurd, though reversible information exchange is frequently used. The velocity of photon is neither smooth, nor monotonic or irreversible background in time.

How do you assume "information is associated with the propagation of a photon?" Information is not data that is transmitted. Information is specific data reporting the state of something based on observation (measurements), organized and summarized for a purpose within a context that gives it meaning and relevance and can lead to either an increase in understanding or decrease in uncertainty. Perception is the processing of the result of measurements of different but related fields of something with some stored data to convey a combined form "it is like that", where "it" refers to an object (constituted of bits) and "that" refers to a concept signified by the object (self-contained representation).

Similarly, how do you "postulate sub-time is inextricably intertwined with space along the one-dimensional path defined by the photon traversal between emitter and absorber atoms?" Transverse waves are always characterized by particle motion being perpendicular to the wave motion. This implies the existence of a three dimensional medium through which the two dimensional reference wave travels and with respect to which the transverse wave travels in a perpendicular direction. In the absence of the reference wave, which is a longitudinal wave, the transverse wave can not be characterized as such. All transverse waves are background invariant by its very definition. All motions take place in space and time. Thus, how do you "dispense entirely with the notion that a background of time exists, along with any sense of future or past, between isolated entangled systems?" After all, the two waves are entangled.

Photon exchange indicates the change in direction of the application of energy. Consider an example: A B → C D. Here a force makes A interact with B to produce C and D. The same force doesn't act on C and D as they don't exist at that stage. If we change the direction of the force, B acts on A. Here only the direction of force and not the interval between the states before and after application of force (time) will change and the equation will be: B A → C D and not B A ← C D. Hence it does not affect causality. There can be no negative direction for time or cause and effect. You also subscribe to this view later in your essay while talking about entanglement. Only there you start a reverse cycle with C and D in place of A and B. Then how do you claim "Only when the entangled system decoheres into the environment of other entangled systems (through the exchange of photons) does time emerge as progressively irreversible, providing persistent evolution of information at the macroscopic scale"?

The result of measurement is always related to a time t, and is frozen for use at later times t', t'', etc, when the object has evolved further. All other unknown states are combined together and are called superposition of states. Hence there is an uncertainty inherent in it, which Shannon calls entropy. Indiscernibility such as the difference of time in the observation of an object, its description through a language and the perception of the object as described by that language can sometimes be designated as a superposition of states. Entanglement of quantum states of composite systems of two or more atoms cannot be a consequence of the principle of superposition. Contrary to the descriptions of EPR, entanglement does not physically last over long distances. Entanglement always indicates confinement, which means they are in a well defined boundary or state. Hence it cannot be a superposition. Further, since they are continuously changing their states ('a state of reversible change' - as you put it), which are 'events', it happens in the background of time (interval between events).

Can you show us something that does not change at all? Everything is made up of elementary particles and fundamental energies, which always change their state. How can time stand still? Time may stand still only outside the Universes, which cannot be perceived at all. We measure analog time by observing some fairly repetitive (cyclic) and easily intelligible events and taking it as the scaling constant (unit). Generally we use the duration of the day or year, which are natural units and subdivide it to get the duration of second. Even atomic clocks, which define a second as the duration of 9192631770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the caesium-133 atom, retain the natural duration by averaging many readings of the cesium clocks in GPS, as they are individually not accurate. While the analog time is smooth and monotonous, the digitized time, when used to measure the intervals of events, is not so.

The rest of your essay is extension of these ideas and other's ideas with pictorial representation. Hence we are not commenting on those.

Regards,

basudeba

Jenny - I finally got to your paper early this morning and I must say, I really enjoyed it. My favorable review appears on your page.

I replied briefly to your question regarding eternity in my earlier response (above). I do appreciate you pointing me to Sir Roger Penrose's concept of Quanglement [1, p 603]. This is one of my favorite books on my bookshelf and yet I never realized (or more more likely didn't remember) his introduction of this concept.

I believe Sir Roger is clearly showing us the answer to the paradox of entanglement and non-locality in this concept; but even he doesn't realize that he's pointing his enormous intellectual gun to an answer -- hidden in plain sight.

If you check the various sections in his book that mentions quanglement [1. p 407, 578, 603-7] you will notice that he still maintains two principles: (a) that quantum behavior cannot be explained classically, and (b) that time, once having gone forwards, never goes backwards. This is manifested, for example, in the statement on p 603 "I am not trying to give support to the idea that ordinary information can be propagated backwards in time (nor can EPR effects be used to send classical information faster than light);"

However, he then plainly states further down the page that "quanglement links have the novel feature that the can zig-zag backwards and forwards in time.".

Sir Roger continues to commit the background of time fallacy in figure 23.7 on the previous page, describing quantum teleportation as "acausal propagation of quanglement". And then having a single direction (upwards) for an irreversible, monotonically increasing classical concept of time (what I refer to as Tc in my essay). This is strongly reminiscent of Wheeler & Feynman's Absorber Interaction paper [2] who also commit this fallacy.

I think we have a smoking gun! I will leave our readers to follow up with Sir Roger's various other publications where he appears oblivious to having committed this fallacy.

I truly hope that (after reading my essay) that he or someone else will educate us by pointing out where we are wrong about the relationship between subtime and quanglement ;-)

[1] R. Penrose. "The Road to Reality. A complete Guide to the Laws of the Universe". 2004.

[2] J. A. Wheeler and R. P. Feynman, "Interaction with the absorber as the mechanism of radiation", Reviews of Modern Physics, vol. 17, no. 2-3, pp. 157-181, Apr. 1945.

Kind regards, Paul

Peter - thank you for your kind comments on my essay.

I have found I have to be careful when talking about the notion of proper time. It is convenient to say that proper time for a photon is zero, but that depends on which Lorentz frame you choose.

Besides the references to works on orbital angular momentum in my essay, you can find pointers for downloading Poynting's early work on the following site: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3390789/

I have copies of all his papers from jstor, but I am uncertain about the copyright status and don't want to run afoul of the terms of use for the fqxi contest by attaching them.

Thank you for your good score. I am hoping that there is more to this than just an original idea. If I am even remotely correct, there are many profound implications and follow-on ideas; but I wanted to try and get this one idea over first and see if it holds water after examination by my peers before exposing my other ideas.

I would be happy to take a look at your essay, I am just wading through a pile of other fqxi essays now, but will see if I can get to yours in the next day or so.

Kind regards, Paul

Dear Paul,

You write

"Two atoms exchanging a photon with each other in perpetuity comprises an entangled system (Figure1)."

It reminds me the idea I published some time ago

"Quantum Phase Locking, 1/f Noise and Entanglement",

although I am no longer convinced that entanglement relies on this concept.

You write

"From this insight, we can now begin to formulate a new and logically consistent information view of the apparent non-locality revealed in violations of Bell's inequality without sacricing the principle of locality."

At the end you may be right. It may be that one forgot to introduce the right notion of time in the interpretation and that some kind of quantum phase-locking is at work. I would be delighted to see a following up of my 15 year quest

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/math-ph/0510044

and this could be checked with atomic clocks in the end.

Good luck,

Michel

Paul,

Both profound and paradigm shifting, if such is now possible.

Thanks for the links, and kind comments on my blog.

Do stay in touch.

Hold tight for the roller coaster ride to the finish!

Peter

PS, I think I have Proper and co-ordinate (arbitrary) time well defined, but if you have a chance please read my last two (both top 10 but passed over) essays for the foundations and give me your views. Or fuller range of papers here; Academia.edu Papers.

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your kind comments in my essay forum. I hope my vote gave your essay a deserved rating boost.

When the recent kerfuffle over "faster than light neutrinos" was percolating, I expressed doubt that any one-way measurement could ever suffice to demonstrate the case, because any particle that exceeds the speed of light also exceeds the speed of time and therefore (like the hypothetical tachyons) could never have been shown to exist in the first place. So I appreciate your promotion in these discussions of Lev Vaidman's model, where (phi|psi) past and future states are entangled and reversible.

We have a lot to talk about that is more complicated than I wish to engage in right now, because we are so close in our views. In the end, I would hope to convince both you and Lev Vaidman that if time is indeed identical to information, entanglement of wave functions is identical to classical orientation entanglement rather than quantum entanglement that entails superposition -- in any physical sense, I mean. My physical definition of time (ICCS 2006, 2007), "n-dimension infinitely orientable metric on random, self avoiding walk," meets the classical criteria.

Thanks for a stimulating essay and all best in the competition!

Tom